Too Much Scoop | Syracusefan.com

Too Much Scoop

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Point guards are to basketball offenses, as quarterbacks are to football offenses: if the offense stinks, it's usually because the guy in charge of spreading the ball isn't doing a great job. Last night, our offense stunk for almost the whole game, because Scoop was pounding the rock too much and because Scoop, once again, led the team in wasted possessions (11, tied with KJ) and wasted seconds on the shot clock (didn't add them up yet, but there were a ton).

We are fortunate, however, that a solid percentage of Scoop's gunner shots went through the hoop.

If Scoop's out-of-sync, gunner three doesn't fall, he ends up with this line: 13 points, 5-10, 7 assists, 2 missed free throws, 4 turnovers, 4 steals, and we win by 1, at home, against a team we ought to punish. But Scoop's wild three fell, so his stat line was actually very solid (16,7, 4, 4, 60% shooting).

Still, Scoop's weaknesses were on full display last night. Down the stretch, Scoop took several shots early in the shot clock, without running any offense. Last night they fell, so Scoop is a "hero." But we have a large enough sample size to know that usually, Scoop's wild, early-shot clock gunner threes do not fall often enough to take us to the championship.

Posters will say that we "needed" Scoop last night: and maybe we did. JB seemed to think so, and he is uaually correct. I loved the play when Scoop got the ball late in the shot clock, and then made a runner going to the hoop. Even if he missed that shot, an offensive board was likely. I loved how Scoop took charge late in the shot clock, and came up onions, making a big score. In that one play, Scoop showed exactly the skill that many of his fans praise him for. But such smart play is the exception, unfortunately, not the rule. Besides that one late-shot clock runner, most of Scoop's shot selection was questionable despite the friendly rim.

Waiters getting 14 minutes is a disaster. That should never happen. Nonsense about "riding the hot hand" is simply that: nonsense. Championship caliber teams don't ride the hot hand. And Scoop wasn't even that hot: he was one bad bounce from having a so-so 5-for-10 shooting night. IMO, if Scoop had been playing a lesser role as backup guard, and our first round NBA talent (Dion) had been playing the two, bumping our star point guard (BT) to his proper position: we never would have let the Gators hang around.

I know Waiters was 1-for-8, and I know that JB felt that Dion did a poor job defending a deep three. I am also aware that Scoop came up with 4 steals, two of which were huge within the context of the game. But Waiters is an amazing defender, better than Scoop by a mile. If Florida was so sloppy that Scoop got 4 steals, Waiters would have likely given Florida's tiny guards even more trouble. No one drives by Waiters, most everyone drives by Scoop. Even against a perimeter shooting team that avoids dribble drives, Waiters is simply too good to sit for Scoop: 1-for-8 notwithstanding.

If Waiters plays 25+ minutes, the context of the game would have changed, as our NBA athletes would dominate those tiny Florida college guards all day (and although Beal isn't tiny, he is so overrated it's crazy). Only by giving Scoop 31 minutes of running our offense, could we get ourselves in a position where we needed Scoop's late gunner shots to help us. A player of Scoop's talents would be fine for a prominent role on a team like Florida, but our championship caliber team cannot afford to bench Waiters and play Triche out of position simply to accommodate Scoop.

Our offense, once again, looked substantially less efficient than championship caliber. On a neutral floor we likely win that game by a point or two, and in Florida we likely lose. That is unacceptable, because as others have noted, Florida is not a legit top 10 team (even with their stretch 4 Murphy). If we continue to give Scoop 31 minutes in big spots, I feel we are not going to win the championship.

Triche is our point guard. We look soooo much better with Triche running the half court offense. Not only does Triche make the quicker and more responsible passes, but he also gets to the line when he runs the point. Scoop is a liability at the line, he is too willing to shoot early in the clock, and makes too many boneheaded plays.

Scoop always gets "assists" because the Cuse is an amazing transition team. Many of Scoop's assists are easy transitions buckets where he simply executes the three man weave or some other quick, easy offense. Any of our guards could rack up assists playing the designated point guad spot. The only reason Triche didn't pile up assists his frosh year, is because Rautins actually played point man on so many of our transition breaks. Scoop very, very rarely creates offense for others in the half court: and it hurt us badly for most of the Florida game.

Anyway, Scoop bleeds Orange. I have 100% confidence that Scoop would be supporting the Cuse right now, even if he had already moved on. I love how he is handling Dion's emergence. I love that he made shots last night: I just don't think JB is doing us a favor by giving Dion's minutes to Scoop, and our team needs Triche to play all of his minutes. It's impossible not to enjoy Scoop being Scoop though. On soooo many other Syracuse teams, Scoop would be my favorite player. But when we run Dion, Triche, CJ, Melo, and KJ, it is awfully hard to find 31 minutes for Scoopball.

Great game, great guy, great Cuse fan, but IMO, we are hurting our championship odds to give Scoop more minutes, touches, shots, chances to make a play, possessions, shot clock seconds, etc than Waiters.
 
the guy that is in the hall of fame, he said that scoop won us the game. He not only hit the big shots, he made the key steals. dion didn't have it last night. Scoop did. End of story. scoop hit big shots to win us the game.
 
Point guards are to basketball offenses, as quarterbacks are to football offenses: if the offense stinks, it's usually because the guy in charge of spreading the ball isn't doing a great job. Last night, our offense stunk for almost the whole game, because Scoop was pounding the rock too much and because Scoop, once again, led the team in wasted possessions (11, tied with KJ) and wasted seconds on the shot clock (didn't add them up yet, but there were a ton).

We are fortunate, however, that a solid percentage of Scoop's gunner shots went through the hoop.

If Scoop's out-of-sync, gunner three doesn't fall, he ends up with this line: 13 points, 5-10, 7 assists, 2 missed free throws, 4 turnovers, 4 steals, and we win by 1, at home, against a team we ought to punish. But Scoop's wild three fell, so his stat line was actually very solid (16,7, 4, 4, 60% shooting).

But what if he makes those two drives to the hoop, and one of his two missed threes. Plus, what if CJ finishes that one play where Scoop went baseline and drew the defender, AND what if BT was able to finish that alley oop? He ends up with this line: 23 points, 9-10, 9 assists, 2 missed free throws, 3 turnovers, 4 steals and we win by 9, at home, against a Top 10 team.

23, 9, 4, 4, 90% shooting. Pretty impressive stuff if you ask me.
 
I don't get the if the 3 didn't go in. It did. It's not like he banked it in.
 
when we run Dion, Triche, CJ, Melo, and KJ, it is awfully hard to find 31 minutes for Scoop.

There's a lot to pick apart here, but I'll try to be satisfied with this doozy.

It's darn easy to find 31 minutes for Scoop when Dion is wasting possessions by going one-on-three and coughing the ball up. He was a non-entity in his time out there; our 39-30 became 41-41 with Dion in the game and his plus/minus was dreadful.

You're pitifully transparent; even when Scoop has a good game, you can't stop yourself from coming on here, ripping him with backhanded compliments, and pretending Waiters did a bunch of positive things that never actually happened.

Scoop's "assists"? Please.

By the way, if Scoop wasted 11 possessions (on four missed shots, two missed free throws, four turnovers, and I don't know what else) in 31 minutes and was such a disaster, then how would you assess Dion's seven missed shots and one turnover in 14 minutes? Oh, "amazing." That's right.

Why can't you people support the team and everyone on it? This crap makes the board a worse place.
 
scoop hit big shots to win us the game.

definitely true. Scoop nailed the shots that won it. just wondering whether Waiters is soo good, that we need to ride him. also wondering if Scoop's shots are going to fall, in a more important context. but yea, Scoop hit the shots that beat Florida, definitely.

I am not saying "let's pretend Scoop missed the three," I am only saying, I worry that his track record suggests he may miss that 3 next time, and if Waiters plays Scoop's minutes, I doubt we need that 3.
 
JB has said repeatedly that whoever is playing well on a given night will play. Waiters wasn't playing well. Scoop was playing better. Waiters sits, Scoop plays. It's as simple as that.
 
Dion was 1 for 8 last night. he isn't mo cheeks (probably before your time). Scoop hit a ton of big shots for us last year. people like to forget them. Hit a 3 to send our big east tourney game against UConn. to overtime. No one remembers because we lost.
 
I am not saying "let's pretend Scoop missed the three," I am only saying, I worry that his track record suggests he may miss that 3 next time, and if Waiters plays Scoop's minutes, I doubt we need that 3.

Ironically, I think the 3-point shots that Scoop makes me cringe at the most are the ones he always makes.
 
Lot of ifs.. If Florida hadn't dropped all those 30' bombs the game wouldn't have been close.
 
No matter how this conversation goes from here, I give you props for being man enough to come out against Scoop after a "good" game, one in which JB said Scoop won the game for them. Also props for at least acknowledging that Scoop had some nice stretches yesterday and is not a terrible player overall...although he has his limitations. And I also like the way you ended your post, pointing out how great of a guy & teammate Scoop is and what a valuable asset he is for the program.

I honestly don't know how to feel about Scoop. That three pointer you reference was a CLASSIC What Scoop shot for me...in fact, when he went to shoot it, early in the shoot clock and seemingly off balance, I screamed about how bad a shot it was...swish. Also, in the first half he drove wildly to the hoop and got caught in the air, putting up a wild shot from behind his head...swish. Later, same sort of play...Scoop drives to hoop, gets caught in the air against good defense...ball seemingly comes out of nowhere on his way down...swish.

Some of his in game decisions, namely shot & pass selections are maddening. But last night, the shots that mattered most went in, and in the process he kept our lead at a pivitol time when Florida was threatening to make a run. And they were huge shots for us.

Which brings me to this point: I don't know how to feel when people defend these "Scoop moments" by saying "Scoop's the only one with the courage to take those tough shots..." Really? It takes courage to attempt poor percentage shots in crunch time? Bad shot selections are ok if they occur late in the game? Anybody could do that...Scoop does, so that makes him courageous? How do we know Triche wouldn't take these shots for us and get better looks, if given the chance to? Not sure I buy the fact that Scoop is willing to fire up the important shot as a good quality in a player. Maybe only if every other player is 100% unwilling to do so?

BUT, ultimately, I'm just glad hes on the team. I am happy that we have 3 capable, talented guards that share time so well (so far)...it's really a great problem to have. In the end, I defer to JB...he knows more than I do and if he plays Scoop and trusts him...well, I'll be here to second guess! (after all, isn't that what message boards are for? haha)
 
Waiters getting 14 minutes is a disaster. That should never happen. Nonsense about "riding the hot hand" is simply that: nonsense. Championship caliber teams don't ride the hot hand. And Scoop wasn't even that hot: he was one bad bounce from having a so-so 5-for-10 shooting night. IMO, if Scoop had been playing a lesser role as backup guard, and our first round NBA talent (Dion) had been playing the two, bumping our star point guard (BT) to his proper position: we never would have let the Gators hang around.

fanfan, I know you like Statistics, but I think you need a slightly better grasp on Variance (probably the key concept in Statistics). Most people know what variance is: in layman's terms, it's the inconsistency in results. One game a player will score 20, the next game he will score 2 (similar to JSouth's season so far). Once you start compiling statistics, you are going to come up with averages and percentages, but it's also important to look at Variance (which very few people actually do).

Now, here's the key concept: If you are a coach that can recognize individual variances during a game, you can continually play "the hot hand" to maximize your positive results. Think of it like a Sine curve that is going up and down. If you can constantly replace guys that are performing on the down side of the curve with guys that are performing on the upside of the curve, then you will reduce the negative results and maximize your efficiency. Very difficult thing to do, and it takes some intuition. I think JB said in is presser, he had a "feeling". Sometimes you have to go with your feelings.
 
You're pitifully transparent; even when Scoop has a good game, you can't stop yourself from coming on here, ripping him with backhanded compliments, and pretending Waiters did a bunch of positive things that never actually happened...Why can't you people support the team and everyone on it? This crap makes the board a worse place.

I am not pretending that Waiters did anything good last night. I didn't see him do anything good.

But let's not get too caught up in a snap shot, narrow perspective: we have large samples sizes that demonstrate, without a doubt, that Waiters is a much better player (and I'm not only speaking about this year). Waiter's efficiency was even better than Scoop's last year. We hurt ourselves last season by overrelying on Scoop, and that is our biggest potential pit fall this season.

It is obvious that Waiters is a star. Sometimes stars have rough starts, like Dion last night. Scoop is not a star. He is just a very enjoyable, good college guard who has onions and can hit shots against anyone, but struggles to run the point. Since we have two star guards including a true point, and two star wings (Joseph and Fair), it's hard to find a ton of minutes for Scoop. I'm not a big fan of riding the hot hand, but JB knows what he is doing, and obviously he went with Scoop last night.

I very much object to the idea that all fans must support all the players' respective roles at all times.
 
your timing sucks. not the best game to try to launch an anti scoop campaign. he saved our bacon.
 
I am not pretending that Waiters did anything good last night. I didn't see him do anything good.

But let's not get too caught up in a snap shot, narrow perspective: we have large samples sizes that demonstrate, without a doubt, that Waiters is a much better player (and I'm not only speaking about this year). Waiter's efficiency was even better than Scoop's last year. We hurt ourselves last season by overrelying on Scoop, and that is our biggest potential pit fall this season.

It is obvious that Waiters is a star. Sometimes stars have rough starts, like Dion last night. Scoop is not a star. He is just a very enjoyable, good college guard who has onions and can hit shots against anyone, but struggles to run the point. Since we have two star guards including a true point, and two star wings (Joseph and Fair), it's hard to find a ton of minutes for Scoop. I'm not a big fan of riding the hot hand, but JB knows what he is doing, and obviously he went with Scoop last night.

I very much object to the idea that all fans must support all the players; respective roles at all times. Suggesting
The best thing about this Syracuse teams is that we have talented depth, that is capable of stepping up when our better players don't perform well.

Dion had an off night. It's going to happen. I'm just happy that we had Scoop and he was able to come in and make a difference to help us win the game. It's nice to have options.
 
Your way off with all due respect. As math major I appreciate your statistical breakdown but when it comes to hoops, Philly guards are shot makers. You can't play what ifs in this scenario. What if boynton doesn't make 3 contested triples? Then we win going away. scoop is a gutsy player. If you remember videos of him at ng he was always a a bit of a gunner and excelled with the runner in the lane. In a stagnant game he made things happen. His defense was on the money. His confidence bled over to the rest of the team. Our best teams have had risk takers. pearl, sherm, laz , Gerry, Andy as a sr all could drive you crazy one second and then awe you the next. Dion was shellshocked a bit and scoop did what seniors do. There is no statistical value that can quantify the qualitative impact you get for
A Philly guard who is in the zone. same with a NYC pg.. Walkers form is crap but he is a big time gamer.
 
I honestly don't know how to feel about Scoop. That three pointer you reference was a CLASSIC What Scoop shot for me...in fact, when he went to shoot it, early in the shoot clock and seemingly off balance, I screamed about how bad a shot it was...swish. Also, in the first half he drove wildly to the hoop and got caught in the air, putting up a wild shot from behind his head...swish. Later, same sort of play...Scoop drives to hoop, gets caught in the air against good defense...ball seemingly comes out of nowhere on his way down...swish.

Now that one was a bad shot - no two ways about it. I'd be happy to never see Scoop attempt that one again.

As someone else noted, Scoop had a clean look at his three. It was early in the shot clock. One could argue that it was a force. But it's a makeable 21-footer.

I'll be the first person to say that we should be getting scoring from someone other than our point guard. But there's little to disparage Scoop about after last night's game, and it's crazy to suggest that Waiters should've taken any of his minutes (especially if we're doing so on the basis of possessions wasted by each player).
 
Let me add that the beauty of this team is guys stepping up. You make plays to win games. Florida did what they had to in denying the entry pass to the post and doubling quickly on the lob pass. Give their d some credit as they took osu down to the wire as well. This team has off the court issues to deal with as well. Let's keep things in perspective. good win, fab is growing every gAme and we have a shot to win it all with our defense.
 
[quote="I am not saying "let's pretend Scoop missed the three," I am only saying, I worry that his track record suggests he may miss that 3 next time, and if Waiters plays Scoop's minutes, I doubt we need that 3.[/quote]

If Keith Smart missed that jumper, then....
 
Dion is not a first round talent guys like him are all over college.
Sent from my Vortex using Tapatalk
 
It is obvious that Waiters is a star.

It's not obvious to me that Waiters is a star, at least for now.

He certainly has been impressive at times this season, but the sample size of games against high quality opponents is just too small. Let's see how he does night in and night out in conference play, and let's see how he reacts when he faces adversity on the court or is asked to sit. Personally, I think he has the skill set to be a great college player, but he is not there yet.

Remember, JB's primary objective is to win games, not to develop Dion into an NBA player.
 
If I had a bigger schwarz I would be in the porn business. Alas I am not...

Give me a break...Scoop was great. I love that we are playing a what if game now after top 10 wins.

Jesus...
 
Not really looking to bash Scoop after he was crucial in the huge win. However, I don't think there is anything wrong with saying that I do not want to continually see us dependent on Scoop heaving up that junk in order to beat top teams. While I am certain I would not have spent as much time on it, I agree with fanfan's basic opinion that we are not in good shape if you project what happened last night, over the course of the year.

To me... four plays summarize my mindset when it comes to this point. Two layups by Dion and two layups by Scoop. Scoop's were ridiculous, horrible, and ugly, yet they went in. Dion's were aggressive, featured athleticism and explosion, but missed. I will take Dion's drives everyday of the week despite the misses. Chances are, he will make it, he will get fouled, possibly even have a good chance of getting an "and-one," or the trailer has a good look at the bucket. Good things happen when you take it to the hole, and on cue both misses were put back by trailers because it took two or three defenders to challenge Dion. Dion makes those shots, he is 3/8. Scoop misses his circus layups, he's 4/10..... People can say "if" "if" "if"... but playing the odds going forward, you'd be a fool to take Scoop's shots over Dion's.
 

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