Top 10 PGs all-time per ESPN

[alphaorange]

Funny thing just happened, Anyone remember crazy jumpshot, Dick Barnett? I know its a little ot, but the guy had theee all time coolest jumpshot. Any oldtimers in this thread?

I remember. Walt's early running partner and mentor

 

[RandygoCuse]

Tony has a Finals MVP, which has to definitely keep him in the top 20, I would think. Plus his longevity.

It's an interesting discussion.

BTW, here is a fun hot take, I thought Stockton was hideously overrated on defense.

I think he was a better team defender than Man to Man. He would go for steals (and get quite a few), but I think he got beat a lot. He had Malone and for a while Mark Eaton to cover for him. I'd love to see what analytics guys say about whether steals are overrated.

 

[Shawn91111]

Stockton would often gamble on steals, looking to chase the ball a bit too much, but his defense was effective and often pesky to the opposition. He had heart and toughness on both ends of the court

 

[IthacaMatt]

I did not know that Robertson was a point guard...

I felt that way, too. I only really watched him toward the end of his career, but to me, he seemed more like a small forward on that Bucks team with Lucius Allen at PG. He was Michael Jordan before Jordan - he had the versatility to play 3 positions, and kind of did play all 3 positions at the same time.

 

[Toga]

Funny thing just happened, Anyone remember crazy jumpshot, Dick Barnett? I know its a little ot, but the guy had theee all time coolest jumpshot. Any oldtimers in this thread?

Chick Hearn gave him that great nickname - Fall Back Baby.

 

[Forza Azzurri]

I felt that way, too. I only really watched him toward the end of his career, but to me, he seemed more like a small forward on that Bucks team with Lucius Allen at PG. He was Michael Jordan before Jordan - he had the versatility to play 3 positions, and kind of did play all 3 positions at the same time.

That must be it...I was trying to figure out why I thought he was a 3 and not a point guard and it must have been the Bucks teams from the early 70s...Allen was the point. Was McGlocklin the 2 and that would have, in my mind, made Robertson the 3?

 

[Toga]

That must be it...I was trying to figure out why I thought he was a 3 and not a point guard and it must have been the Bucks teams from the early 70s...Allen was the point. Was McGlocklin the 2 and that would have, in my mind, made Robertson the 3?

If you have Alcindor and Robertson on the same team, you can assign positions however you want. Just get them the ball.

 

[RandygoCuse]

Pippen is rated higher than Havlicek. I disagree with this. I'm sure there are counterarguments. Let's hear 'em!

 

[MikeSU02]

Pippen is rated higher than Havlicek. I disagree with this. I'm sure there are counterarguments. Let's hear 'em!

Pippen is arguably the greatest and most versatile wing defender of all time.

Also was running the point forward position when no one else was.

I'll defend Pippen forever. He's usually vastly underrated on lists like these.

 

[MonsterGame]

One thing I believe you have to give Stockton is that he was the best pick n roll PG to ever play. What does it take to be a great pick n roll PG?

1) Ability to deliver the pass. (Stockton was as good as anyone at doing this. If you watched him deliver his passes you would know this.)
2) Step back and pop the deep ball if the opposing big doesn't cheat out to guard against it. (Stockton was not Steph Curry, who is, but he was an extremely good outside shooter that the opposing team would not leave alone to shoot the deep ball.)

I believe you could have put Stockton with any PF who could can the open 12 to 16 foot jump shot and Stockton would have had nearly identical numbers. Not saying the two weren't an absolute match made in heaven for pick n roll, but they were both ideally suited for that offense.

The other thing is, Stockton was every bit as tough and nasty as Isaiah was under Isaiah's charming smile. People who played against Stockton would always comment on his extreme level of toughness and nastiness.

The only other issue I have with this is Isaiah could have easily been a scoring guard because of the way he played. If you have to play with a PG who can take over a game with his scoring ability, like Isaiah could, it can, at times, be a little disheartening because you know your PG might not be there to get you the rock. LeBron James may have more of a PG mentality than Isaiah did. Debatable, but it might be true. When I watch James play, it's like he's always trying to get his teammates involved, even if they are failing.

 

[RandygoCuse]

Pippen is arguably the greatest and most versatile wing defender of all time.

Also was running the point forward position when no one else was.

I'll defend Pippen forever. He's usually vastly underrated on lists like these.

fair points - I'd still take Hondo. He led a few teams to championships (admittedly with a better supporting cast than Pippen). He might not have been the point forward Pippen was, buthe was a much better scorer.

 

[MikeSU02]

fair points - I'd still take Hondo. He led a few teams to championships (admittedly with a better supporting cast than Pippen). He might not have been the point forward Pippen was, buthe was a much better scorer.

I can see a legit argument for Hondo as high as number three or four. I wouldn't agree with it, but his credentials are impressive.

Btw, Durant is going to land in the top four of this list with Bird, Bron and Dr J in some order.

I would put Bron ahead of Bird at this point.

 

[MikeSU02]

KD is four. Assume the next three will be Dr J, Bird and Bron.

 

[Knicks411]

One thing I believe you have to give Stockton is that he was the best pick n roll PG to ever play. What does it take to be a great pick n roll PG?.

Stockton was great and did it forever, but I think it's either Nash or Curry. Teams are so scared of Curry's jumper the Warriors can basically get a 4 on 3 with the ball in Green's hands anytime they want.

KD is four. Assume the next three will be Dr J, Bird and Bron.

Am I crazy to say Dr. J might be a little overrated? Like, I think I'd take Hondo and probably Durant over him. And I feel like Bird and Lebron are miles ahead of him. (relatively speaking)

 

[MikeSU02]

Stockton was great and did it forever, but I think it's either Nash or Curry. Teams are so scared of Curry's jumper the Warriors can basically get a 4 on 3 with the ball in Green's hands anytime they want.



Am I crazy to say Dr. J might be a little overrated? Like, I think I'd take Hondo and probably Durant over him. And I feel like Bird and Lebron are miles ahead of him. (relatively speaking)

I would take Bron, Bird, Durant and Pippen over Dr J.

You could probably talk me into Hondo and Elgin as well.

 

[Alsacs]

Durant ahead of Pippen is just so stupid and playing in to the new school. I love Durant and think he is a great player but if you told me I could start my team and choose between 1991 Scottie Pippen or 2012 Kevin Durant I am taking Pippen all day every day.

Pippen could guard pretty much any player and his offense was so underrated.
Lebron will end up the greatest SF so I would put him 1st Bird 2nd.

 

[Knicks411]

I would take Bron, Bird, Durant and Pippen over Dr J.

You could probably talk me into Hondo and Elgin as well.

Totally blanked on Pippen; I'd take him as well.

 

[Knicks411]

Durant ahead of Pippen is just so stupid and playing in to the new school. I love Durant and think he is a great player but if you told me I could start my team and choose between 1991 Scottie Pippen or 2012 Kevin Durant I am taking Pippen all day every day.

Pippen could guard pretty much any player and his offense was so underrated.
Lebron will end up the greatest SF so I would put him 1st Bird 2nd.

I kind of agree but I also think we're really taking Kevin Durant for granted here. He's basically a seven footer and he's a career 48% shooter, 38% from 3, and 88% from the line. Some of the things he can do are insane. I still can see myself taking Pippen over him, just wanted to defend Durant a little

 

[RandygoCuse]

I would put Bron ahead of Bird at this point.

This long time die hard Celtics fan reluctantly agrees.

 

[br801]

I would take Bron, Bird, Durant and Pippen over Dr J.

You could probably talk me into Hondo and Elgin as well.

Not too many people who saw both Havlicek and Erving play (other than Celtic fans) would speak of the two in the same breath.

 

[MikeSU02]

Not too many people who saw both Havlicek and Erving play (other than Celtic fans) would speak of the two in the same breath.

Like I said, you would have to convince me.

However, the first four I mentioned, I wouldn't budge on.

 

[Alsacs]

This long time die hard Celtics fan reluctantly agrees.

I am C's fan and don't take the bait when asked who is the Celtics leading scorer which is Hondo but I think Pippen was the better player.

Watching Pippen carry Chicago in 1993 and 1994 showed me all needed from the guy. Those teams with Pippen were dangerous and were a horrible foul called by Hue Hollins in game 5 vs. NYK from going to the NBA Finals IMO.

 

[IthacaMatt]

Stockton was great and did it forever, but I think it's either Nash or Curry. Teams are so scared of Curry's jumper the Warriors can basically get a 4 on 3 with the ball in Green's hands anytime they want.



Am I crazy to say Dr. J might be a little overrated? Like, I think I'd take Hondo and probably Durant over him. And I feel like Bird and Lebron are miles ahead of him. (relatively speaking)

We all missed some of Dr. J's best years when he was toiling in relative obscurity in the ABA.

 

[Knicks411]

Not too many people who saw both Havlicek and Erving play (other than Celtic fans) would speak of the two in the same breath.

I'm a guy who saw neither play, so...

Erving was for sure more spectacular. Hondo is another guy who was really durable (theme for me) and basically played full seasons while averaging over 40 MPG 5 times.

I also don't know what to do with Doc's ABA years. I could be wrong on this one for sure, Doc is a little hard to get a handle on.

 

[br801]

I'm a guy who saw neither play, so...

Erving was for sure more spectacular. Hondo is another guy who was really durable (theme for me) and basically played full seasons while averaging over 40 MPG 5 times.

I also don't know what to do with Doc's ABA years. I could be wrong on this one for sure, Doc is a little hard to get a handle on.

The quality of play in the ABA when Erving was there was pretty damn good. And even if you want to discount those years, his NBA performance was consistently stellar in terms of counting stats and advanced metrics like PER.