Tyler Ennis is one of the better Pgs...

[jncuse]

I just need two years out of him and one title then he can go on the NBA and leave Cuse as it's greatest player ever - that's the course
he's headed on - and yes, he's the best PG we've ever had

Welcome back Mantonio.

 

[two3zone]

Welcome back Mantonio.

If it was Mantonio it would have been 2 years and 2 titles.

 

[Melancer46]

I'm not sure what his NBA stock has to do with the way he is playing for us right now. Quinn Buckner wasn't much of a pro but he was a huge factor for IU and their championship run. Florida didn't have a lottery pick at point guard when they went back to back. Tyler Ennis is playing better than anyone could ever imagine and at this point I could care less about his NBA stock. He's a perfect fit for us and that's all that matters.

It has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not he's playing well for us. He's playing great. I had said that I think he needs to improve a ton in order to be a lottery pick, and the person I quoted responded by asking what he needed to improve upon, so therefore, I responded by saying what he needs to improve upon in order to be a lottery pick. So I guess I'm not sure what your post has to do with my post that you quoted.

 

[Melancer46]

I'm not sure what his NBA stock has to do with the way he is playing for us right now. Quinn Buckner wasn't much of a pro but he was a huge factor for IU and their championship run. Florida didn't have a lottery pick at point guard when they went back to back. Tyler Ennis is playing better than anyone could ever imagine and at this point I could care less about his NBA stock. He's a perfect fit for us and that's all that matters.

It has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not he's playing well for us. I had said that I think he needs to improve a ton in order to be a lottery pick, and the person I quoted responded by asking what he needed to improve upon, so therefore, I responded by saying what he needs to improve upon in order to be a lottery pick. So I guess I'm not sure what your post has to do with my post that you quoted.

 

[TheCusian]

Step away from the argument for a minute and ask this question: Is he good enough to lead us to an ACC championship, NCAA championship?

That's the only question that matters. His place in Syracuse lore must be measured in the post season to be mentioned with Sherm, GMAC, and MCW. Until then - he is just "potentially" the top 1-3 guards to play here.

Story is still being written.

 

[ORRange]

It has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not he's playing well for us. I had said that I think he needs to improve a ton in order to be a lottery pick, and the person I quoted responded by asking what he needed to improve upon, so therefore, I responded by saying what he needs to improve upon in order to be a lottery pick. So I guess I'm not sure what your post has to do with my post that you quoted.

I responded to your post because you've brought this subject up many times this year. You also brought it up in a different thread titled "CBS : Tyler, the Creator" today. You seem to slam his athletic ability a lot and if Tyler announces for the NBA draft then by all means critique away. He's twelve games into his career and I think he's been unreal and saying what he needs to improve on repeatedly is really nitpicking.

 

[Melancer46]

I responded to your post because you've brought this subject up many times this year. You also brought it up in a different thread titled "CBS : Tyler, the Creator" today. You seem to slam his athletic ability a lot and if Tyler announces for the NBA draft then by all means critique away. He's twelve games into his career and I think he's been unreal and saying what he needs to improve on repeatedly is really nitpicking.

Ok, so to be clear:

1. In the thread that you're referring to, I responded to somebody that talked about how efficient of a scorer Ennis has been and how great he's been at finishing inside, and I simply pointed out that he's actually really struggled finishing inside, and that that will something to keep an eye on in terms of his draft stock. I understand that Ennis is our guy and we all like to talk highly of guys that are playing well like he is, but I don't really understand why it's wrong of me to point out that somebody was simply off on what they were saying. Just like all the people that quote me and say I'm nuts for saying I think Marcus Smart or Shabazz are better players right now, I quoted someone and pointed out that I think they're incorrect.

2. And in this thread, I said that I'd probably prefer Ennis over any other PG in the country because I think we'll get him for another year or two, and somebody responded saying that I was way off base for that, and so I responded by pointing out his limitations in terms of a draft prospect, thus explaining why I think we'll have him for another year or two, and you are now trying to say that I was off-topic for responding to someone, and yet you're the guy that's apparently responding to a post from another thread in this one lol.

Anyways, now THIS is getting off-topic. I'm very happy with Ennis, and think he's one of the best PGs in the country. But that doesn't mean that he can't improve. I don't think there's anything wrong in pointing out that he still has some areas to improve upon just like I don't think there's anything wrong with people talking about how great he's been in his areas of strength. We've critiqued pretty much every player on the team every year, this year included. I'm not sure why it's a problem to critique Ennis, especially when I was simply responding to a question from someone else.

 

[ORRange]

That's one statistic though. His assist numbers themselves aren't anything special and his scoring numbers and rebounding numbers are nothing special. It's great for a freshman, but there are plenty of guys putting up better numbers outside of the assist:turnover ratio.

Then explain this one?

 

[Melancer46]

Then explain this one?

Explain the reasoning behind the post? I believe RF had posted something along the lines of "What he's doing is not just great, but amazing for any player regardless of class" (not an exact quote, but I think it was something like that), and I responded by pointing out that from a statistical standpoint, there are a lot of players that are playing at or above Ennis' level, and he responded by posting Ennis' assist:turnover ratio (which is phenomenal). I responded, pointing out that that was only one statistic, and that there's much more that goes into being an "amazing" player than simply the assist:turnover ratio.

Anyways, it's getting a bit tiresome to have to defend any post that isn't praising Ennis to be amazing, especially when I agree that he's playing like one of the best PGs in the country. I'll be careful not to post about him anymore unless it's absolutely positive. It's not like I wasn't at the Dome yesterday screaming my head off every time he made a huge play for us lol; I just see more than just the positive things that any of our players do. I would critique every player the same way, but Ennis is the only one that people seem to be exaggerating, saying things like "He's already the best PG in school history, best freshman in school history, gone after this year, etc."

Edit: And RF hadn't added all of the other stuff to that post where he pointed out his assist:turnover ratio at the time that I responded to it, so that's why it looks like I chose to just focus on that one line. The rest of it wasn't there yet. As you can see by looking at the time stamps, I responded to his post at 9:27, and he edited his post at 9:31.

 

[OttoMets]

Ah, just to clarify, I wasn't saying right now he is 2nd, but that he could be. That looks like the trajectory though.

I understand now. Definitely agree with you.

I think he could end up near the top (since I'm in the tiny minority that thinks he's a four-year player). He's incredible for a freshman point guard. I like his shot; that'll only improve as he gets more comfortable. The finishing is a real concern, but it's not like he's going to get worse.

It'll be very fun to watch Ennis in coming weeks and years.

 

[Melancer46]

I understand now. Definitely agree with you.

I think he could end up near the top (since I'm in the tiny minority that thinks he's a four-year player). He's incredible for a freshman point guard. I like his shot; that'll only improve as he gets more comfortable. The finishing is a real concern, but it's not like he's going to get worse.

It'll be very fun to watch Ennis in coming weeks and years.

I agree with all of this.

See, ORRange? I like Ennis lol.

 

[OttoMets]

I agree with all of this.

See, ORRange? I like Ennis lol.

Me too. That's what's funny - it's so fun to watch him, there's no one I'd rather have at the point.

But I feel compelled to correct the one poster who won't stop with the "best player in school history comments," and it's not out of line to point out the fact that Ennis doesn't finish well at this stage.

Through 12 games, reality is plenty of fun; we don't need to pretend everyone's perfect in order to enjoy these players or this team.

 

[jordoo]

Me too. That's what's funny - it's so fun to watch him, there's no one I'd rather have at the point.

But I feel compelled to correct the one poster who won't stop with the "best player in school history comments," and it's not out of line to point out the fact that Ennis doesn't finish well at this stage.

Through 12 games, reality is plenty of fun; we don't need to pretend everyone's perfect in order to enjoy these players or this team.

The thing with his finishing isn't the tough contested ones to me its that he misses some that are just point blank easy 95% of the time makes for college players. I think he improves with that though. I also think that after 12 games he is more than likely played better than any other SU freshman starting pg in their first 12 games.

 

[OttoMets]

The thing with his finishing isn't the tough contested ones to me its that he misses some that are just point blank easy 95% of the time makes for college players. I think he improves with that though. I also think that after 12 games he is more than likely played better than any other SU freshman starting pg in their first 12 games.

Yesterday was a huge hurdle. Gbinije helped, but I'm happy to see Ennis face serious pressure as the primary ball-handler and do so well. I can't think of a Syracuse freshman point guard who's been this comfortably solid through the non-conference (I don't remember Pearl).

For the finishing, I agree that it's not a strength problem since he's having more trouble with open layups than contested ones. I still maintain that he favors the right (inside) hand too much when driving from the left and that his release point is both inconsistent and low.

It'll improve.

 

[Jake]

If Tyler Ennis stays four years, we'll get another ring. I honestly think next year is the year. Though I'm not counting out this team.

Ennis
Cooney
Grant
McCullough
Xmas

With Gbinje, Coleman and Roberson as your 8 man rotation with a dabble of Joseph and Johnson. That team might be preseason #1.

Even if grant goes and Roberson is the 3, we're gonna be great. Loaded great.

 

[Jake]

Yesterday was a huge hurdle. Gbinije helped, but I'm happy to see Ennis face serious pressure as the primary ball-handler and do so well. I can't think of a Syracuse freshman point guard who's been this comfortably solid through the non-conference (I don't remember Pearl).

For the finishing, I agree that it's not a strength problem since he's having more trouble with open layups than contested ones. I still maintain that he favors the right (inside) hand too much when driving from the left and that his release point is both inconsistent and low.

It'll improve.

Pearl as a freshman showed spectacular flashes, but he was sloppy. A lot of high risk, high reward type of plays. Ennis' ball security is crazy. They are polar opposite players.

 

[Col. Bleep]

Tyler's season stats that matter.


61 assists
13 turnovers
32 steals

Let those sink in minute. It's 1 turnover per game, and averages 32 minutes per game. Even more against better competition.

Absolutley.

And there's a major factor unstated and only indirectly revealed by his statistics.
Tyler Ennis is the VERY rare player who can control a game.

 

[dasher]

"Improves a ton", what exactly does he need to improve on? You make it sound like he has glaring weakness that he must work on I don't think so.

I think he needs to improve finishing at the basket.

 

[RF2044]

Explain the reasoning behind the post? I believe RF had posted something along the lines of "What he's doing is not just great, but amazing for any player regardless of class" (not an exact quote, but I think it was something like that), and I responded by pointing out that from a statistical standpoint, there are a lot of players that are playing at or above Ennis' level, and he responded by posting Ennis' assist:turnover ratio (which is phenomenal). I responded, pointing out that that was only one statistic, and that there's much more that goes into being an "amazing" player than simply the assist:turnover ratio.

Anyways, it's getting a bit tiresome to have to defend any post that isn't praising Ennis to be amazing, especially when I agree that he's playing like one of the best PGs in the country. I'll be careful not to post about him anymore unless it's absolutely positive. It's not like I wasn't at the Dome yesterday screaming my head off every time he made a huge play for us lol; I just see more than just the positive things that any of our players do. I would critique every player the same way, but Ennis is the only one that people seem to be exaggerating, saying things like "He's already the best PG in school history, best freshman in school history, gone after this year, etc."

Edit: And RF hadn't added all of the other stuff to that post where he pointed out his assist:turnover ratio at the time that I responded to it, so that's why it looks like I chose to just focus on that one line. The rest of it wasn't there yet. As you can see by looking at the time stamps, I responded to his post at 9:27, and he edited his post at 9:31.

Melancer, I happen to think you are a good poster, but believe that your perspective on this is largely off base. The line highlighted above indicates that you aren't focusing on the proper evaluative criteria or don't understand what constitutes elite lead guard play.

In the original post of mine you responded to, I suggested that we are witnessing greatness, and that his play not only warrants the superlatives, it surpasses the praise. In what universe is a 5-1 [approximately] assist to turnover ratio not otherworldly?

Your response was that he doesn't rebound quite well enough, statistically, or score as much as some other players.

Wrong evaluative criteria. He's on a balanced team, thus doesn't need to be the team's leading scorer. Except when we need him to score--which he does. He controls tempo, he doesn't turn the ball over, he sets up his teammates adroitly, and creates good shots at the end of shot clocks when the offense stalls. He's consistent as hell. He's playing his best ball when we play our toughest opponents. And this is from a freshman. A FRESHMAN.

It is a straw man argument to hide behind the logic that he has areas to improve. Nobody is saying that he doesn't. But having opportunities for improvement doesn't detract from the phenomenal play he's displaing on a game-by-game basis.

If people don't recognize that what they are watching from Ennis is special, they need to start paying closer attention.

 

[Melancer46]

Melancer, I happen to think you are a good poster, but believe that your perspective on this is largely off base. The line highlighted above indicates that you aren't focusing on the proper evaluative criteria or don't understand what constitutes elite lead guard play.

In the original post of mine you responded to, I suggested that we are witnessing greatness, and that his play not only warrants the superlatives, it surpasses the praise. In what universe is a 5-1 [approximately] assist to turnover ratio not otherworldly?

Your response was that he doesn't rebound quite well enough, statistically, or score as much as some other players.

Wrong evaluative criteria. He's on a balanced team, thus doesn't need to be the team's leading scorer. Except when we need him to score--which he does. He controls tempo, he doesn't turn the ball over, he sets up his teammates adroitly, and creates good shots at the end of shot clocks when the offense stalls. He's consistent as hell. He's playing his best ball when we play our toughest opponents. And this is from a freshman. A FRESHMAN.

It is a straw man argument to hide behind the logic that he has areas to improve. Nobody is saying that he doesn't. But having opportunities for improvement doesn't detract from the phenomenal play he's displaing on a game-by-game basis.

If people don't recognize that what they are watching from Ennis is special, they need to start paying closer attention.

What I said is that the assist to turnover ratio is just one statistic. I understand that he's been amazing in regards to taking care of the ball, but his assist numbers, scoring numbers, scoring efficiency, and rebounding are all nothing special from a guard. That is why I believe there are better guards in the country right now. Taking care of the ball is just one aspect of what makes a great guard. And don't get me wrong; Ennis is a great guard. As I've said, he's proving to be one of the best PGs in the country as just a freshman. But there are other PGs that are better players IMO, both in terms of actual ability and in terms of statistics. Statistically, nothing else really stands out about Ennis beyond the amazing turnovers number, yet.

I haven't said that Ennis isn't special. For a freshman PG to play as well as he is is great. And his ability to control the game is something that can't be captured by statistics. But I don't think it's unfair at all to argue that other upperclassmen are better than Ennis currently is, and I don't think it's unfair to point out that Ennis still has plenty to improve upon.

Anyways, clearly we don't agree on this, and that's fine. I happen to think that you're a very good poster as well. It's fine that we don't always see eye to eye.

 

[jordoo]

What I said is that the assist to turnover ratio is just one statistic. I understand that he's been amazing in regards to taking care of the ball, but his assist numbers, scoring numbers, scoring efficiency, and rebounding are all nothing special from a guard. That is why I believe there are better guards in the country right now. Taking care of the ball is just one aspect of what makes a great guard. And don't get me wrong; Ennis is a great guard. As I've said, he's proving to be one of the best PGs in the country as just a freshman. But there are other PGs that are better players IMO, both in terms of actual ability and in terms of statistics. Statistically, nothing else really stands out about Ennis beyond the amazing turnovers number, yet.

I haven't said that Ennis isn't special. For a freshman PG to play as well as he is is great. And his ability to control the game is something that can't be captured by statistics. But I don't think it's unfair at all to argue that other upperclassmen are better than Ennis currently is, and I don't think it's unfair to point out that Ennis still has plenty to improve upon.

Anyways, clearly we don't agree on this, and that's fine. I happen to think that you're a very good poster as well. It's fine that we don't always see eye to eye.

Part of what makes a PG truly great is that they can score, shoot, rebound and set guys up but they don't worry about doing any of those things. They understand that whatever it says on their stat line at the end of the game doesn't matter as much as making the right decision in as many decision making satiations as possible while controlling the game and pacing it in a way that gives their team its best chance to win the game. That is why great PG's are so rare and most college guys being called PG's are really scoring guards that use their great scoring abilities and attentions that they garner to set up other players. However controlling the game, pacing the game, managing the game and making the right decision consistently is very rare. This is why sometimes you can't say Ennis was great at this or that but you know he played a great game. I don't think Tyler cares at all about his stat line as long as he feels he is helping his team win. Tyler is a highly skilled specialist in all of these things. Don't get so caught up in numbers. What good are 9 ass a game if you turn it over 5 or 6? Its probably worse than 3 with no turnovers because you get more shots assist or not.

 

[RF2044]

What I said is that the assist to turnover ratio is just one statistic. I understand that he's been amazing in regards to taking care of the ball, but his assist numbers, scoring numbers, scoring efficiency, and rebounding are all nothing special from a guard. That is why I believe there are better guards in the country right now. Taking care of the ball is just one aspect of what makes a great guard. And don't get me wrong; Ennis is a great guard. As I've said, he's proving to be one of the best PGs in the country as just a freshman. But there are other PGs that are better players IMO, both in terms of actual ability and in terms of statistics. Statistically, nothing else really stands out about Ennis beyond the amazing turnovers number, yet.

I haven't said that Ennis isn't special. For a freshman PG to play as well as he is is great. And his ability to control the game is something that can't be captured by statistics. But I don't think it's unfair at all to argue that other upperclassmen are better than Ennis currently is, and I don't think it's unfair to point out that Ennis still has plenty to improve upon.

Anyways, clearly we don't agree on this, and that's fine. I happen to think that you're a very good poster as well. It's fine that we don't always see eye to eye.

No issue agreeing to disagree on this one. But I just want to point out one thing, because one aspect of your argument pushes one of my buttons about how some posters [not specifically you] misinterpret performance as a function of statistical preoccupation. Stats alone don't tell the story. A guy who averages 15 points a game isn't inherently "better" than a guy who averages 13. Quite a bit of stats has to do with role / opportunity. In 2012, Waiters averaged about 12 ppg--but was better than about 98% of the backcourt opponents we faced. Going back quite a ways [in the theme of this thread, with lots of comparison to past players], a guy like Shelton Jones at St. John's scored more as a senior than DC did as a sophomore. Was he a "better" player, or was his different role the real story behind the statistical differentiation? Dana Barros scored more on lousy BC teams than Sherman Douglas did. Was he a "better" player because he had gaudier scoring stats?

Contemporary players like Pangos might be a better shooter, but his role for Gonzaga is different--he is the focal point, whereas Ennis is probably our third scoring option--possibly even the fourth, even though he rises to every occasion when we need baskets. Smart is a physical specimen, but he plays much more selfishly than Ennis, and is the focal point of his team's offensive concept. Doesn't make him "better;" in fact, I'd say that the attributes Ennis consistently displays sets him apart in terms of his lead guard aptitude from his peers. I get that an important theme in this thread is that we're 13 games in, and that the story is still being written. I honestly believe that unlike MCW last year, we're not going to see a statistical drop off from Ennis in conference play--and expect that by the end of the year he'll be viewed as one of the top impact backcourt players in the country, in much the same way he's gone from being ranked outside of Goodman's asinine top 10 freshman rankings to soaring up to the #3 spot.

Again--appreciate the civil debate, something often lacking on this forum. We're just not on the same page on this topic, which is fine.

 

[Melancer46]

No issue agreeing to disagree on this one. But I just want to point out one thing, because some of your argument pushes one of my buttons about how some posters [not specifically you] misinterpret performance as a function of statistical preoccupation. Stats alone don't tell the story. A guy who averages 15 points a game isn't inherently "better" than a guy who averages 13. Quite a bit of stats has to do with role / opportunity. In 2012, Waiters averaged about 12 ppg--but was better than about 98% of the backcourt opponents we faced. Going back quite a ways [in the theme of this thread, with lots of comparison to past players], a guy like Shelton Jones at St. John's scored more as a senior than DC did as a sophomore. Was he a "better" player, or was his different role the real story behind the statistical differentiation? Dana Barros scored more on lousy BC teams than Sherman Douglas did. Was he a "better" player because he had gaudier scoring stats?

Contemporary players like Pangos might be a better shooter, but his role for Gonzaga is different--he is the focal point, whereas Ennis is probably our third scoring option--possibly even the fourth, even though he rises to every occasion when we need baskets. Smart is a physical specimen, but he plays much more selfishly than Ennis, and is the focal point of his team's offensive concept. Doesn't make him "better;" in fact, I'd say that the attributes Ennis consistently displays sets him apart in terms of his lead guard aptitude from his peers. I get that an important theme in this thread is that we're 13 games in, and that the story is still being written. I honestly believe that unlike MCW last year, we're not going to see a statistical drop off from Ennis in conference play--and expect that by the end of the year he'll be viewed as one of the top impact backcourt players in the country, in much the same way he's gone from being ranked outside of Goodman's asinine top 10 freshman rankings to soaring up to the #3 spot.

Again--appreciate the civil debate, something often lacking on this forum. We're just not on the same page on this topic, which is fine.

I'm with you in regards to guys having different roles, so stats don't tell the whole story. I'm not using stats alone in my opinion, hence why I have a guy like Appling (who I'm not sure is statistically better than Ennis or not, but I just love the way that he plays and think he's one of the best PGs in the nation). I'm just using stats because it's easier to point to stats to support my argument than just you and I going back and forth saying "Well I watch them play and think _______" if you know what I mean.

Having said that, Ennis has the ball in his hands a ton of the time, just like MCW did last year, and I'm pretty sure his usage rate is about the same as the guys I mentioned as being better players right now, so I think he has an opportunity to put up better numbers than he is.

Anyways, I know it probably comes off like it, but I don't mean to be complaining about how he's been playing. He's been fantastic, and it's just amazing to watch the way that our guys are all playing off each other so well. I haven't seen a team that plays this well off of each other since the Wes/Rautins team. Everyone seems to have a really good grasp of what their role on the team is, and I think that gives us a chance to have a very special year, and that's largely due to the play of our freshman PG.