Upon Further Review

[OrangePA]

Hope you are right this time, OPA

I am not sure how much sway our "tradition and brand" holds with current recruits. I think we are about to enter a defining time as a program. New staff, new recruiting philosophy, new conference, new facilities, and a lot more cash. We need to win now, we need to make a bowl in the next two years to carry the momentum.

The time is now. The window is narrow. The program is 35-62 since the end of the P era. That's a lot of "reality" to overcome to convince recruits that the program is back.

I don't see a narrow window at all.

And I don't see a lot of "reality" to overcome.

The "reality" is that the Orange has two bowl wins in three years - has beaten WVU, Louisville, Mizzou, and others during those years - the program has won.

And it will soon have a financial base for advancing the program.

A recruit generally does not exist in a vacuum.

He knows about Jim Brown, Ernie Davis, Larry Csonka and of course McNabb, Harrison and Freeney.

We have what many schools simply do not have - an amazing football heritage that will impact recruiting even more than it has in the past due to our ability to better showcase what the Program has been over the years.

 

[OrangePA]

The point I made on the show was the perception is based on brand names, not recent accomplishments. It seems like more of a challenge to play brand name teams rather than wannabes but I have the feeling we will find that most of the ACC isn't any better than the Big East teams we were already playing. As OPA says, the big issue is us, not them.

I think that's right.

I do not see the ACC schedule as being all that more difficult than the BE schedules were in the recent past.

 

[SWC75]

"Baseball is 90% half mental." - Yogi Berra

I make that to be 45% mental.

 

[SWC75]

68% of all statistics are made up on the spot.

0% of mine.

 

[SWC75]

I think that's right.

I do not see the ACC schedule as being all that more difficult than the BE schedules were in the recent past.

Florida State and Miami, if they return to prominence, will be better than we are ever likely to be. (The Noles are inching closer and closer to what they were, while the Canes have a ways to go).

Virginia Tech and Clemson will probably be better than us more often than not but we can compete with them if we play well and sometimes we will be better than them. We will do better in the Dome than we will in their places.

I think we'll be in a group with Boston College, Pittsburgh, Virginia, North Carolina, North Carolina State and Georgia Tech-up and down but competitive and sometimes more than that.

Duke and Wake Forest will continue their historical roles, (in the two platoon era, anyway) as bottom feeders. Grobe has worked miracles with the Deacons but I don't believe it will last.

Maryland is on their way out. I think we will be better than them this one year.

When Louisville gets in I think they will be at the Virginia Tech/Clemson level.

I think Notre Dame may be entering another golden period under Brian Kelly, now that they are serious about football again. But until they climb off their pedestal and join the conference for football, that doesn't matter.

I think the ACC will be a better football conference than they have been. the Big East is on their way out of the BCS and the ACC will be able to recruit in the Northeast better while continue to recruit strongly in the south. The big question is whether we are headed to four major conferences or will stay at 5. If it's four we need to root for the Big 12 to come apart. I wouldn't mind raiding them for West Virginia, who clearly belongs in this conference, not that one.

 

[007]

I don't see a narrow window at all.

And I don't see a lot of "reality" to overcome.

The "reality" is that the Orange has two bowl wins in three years - has beaten WVU, Louisville, Mizzou, and others during those years - the program has won.

And it will soon have a financial base for advancing the program.

A recruit generally does not exist in a vacuum.

He knows about Jim Brown, Ernie Davis, Larry Csonka and of course McNabb, Harrison and Freeney.

We have what many schools simply do not have - an amazing football heritage that will impact recruiting even more than it has in the past due to our ability to better showcase what the Program has been over the years.

I think you are right about one thing in your reply, recruiting does not exist in a vacuum. If SU sinks to the bottom of the ACC out of the gate, all the football heritage in the world, including the enhanced ability to "showcase" that heritage and the new facilities, will not entice top tier talent to come here at any greater rate than we see now.

The only thing that matters in the immediate future is winning. IMO, the program needs to make it to a bowl game, any bowl game, in the next two years, or it will likely sink to the bottom of the ACC. And once there, the climb back out becomes much more difficult. Ask BC and Duke fans.

The program must take advantage now of the momentum of the new league, the new money, the new staff, and the most recent bowl wins. That window of opportunity IS narrow.

 

[SWC75]

I think you are right about one thing in your reply, recruiting does not exist in a vacuum. If SU sinks to the bottom of the ACC out of the gate, all the football heritage in the world, including the enhanced ability to "showcase" that heritage and the new facilities, will not entice top tier talent to come here at any greater rate than we see now.

The only thing that matters in the immediate future is winning. IMO, the program needs to make it to a bowl game, any bowl game, in the next two years, or it will likely sink to the bottom of the ACC. And once there, the climb back out becomes much more difficult. Ask BC and Duke fans.

The program must take advantage now of the momentum of the new league, the new money, the new staff, and the most recent bowl wins. That window of opportunity IS narrow.

He knows about Jim Brown, Ernie Davis, Larry Csonka and of course McNabb, Harrison and Freeney.

He knows LeBron James scored 37 in the NBA final. I'm not sure about the above.

 

[007]

He knows about Jim Brown, Ernie Davis, Larry Csonka and of course McNabb, Harrison and Freeney.

He knows LeBron James scored 37 in the NBA final. I'm not sure about the above.

I think you meant to respond to OPA, Steve. In any case, I agree with you.

 

[Moontan]

I wouldn't mind raiding them for West Virginia, who clearly belongs in this conference, not that one.

If WVU had a larger population they'd be in the SEC... where they belong.

 

[Stern]

ACC football is nothing to write home about in the national picture. I mean most of those schools football wise have worse fan-bases than we do when it comes to filling up a stadium. FSU/Clemson/VT are the elite of that conference. Everyone else is a step below. Miami ain't Miami anymore and never will be, too many people watching every move that program makes now. They are middle of the road in the ACC.

But WVU did put up 70pts on Clemson not that long ago in the Orange bowl. L'Ville did just beat an SEC school in the Sugar Bowl. Pitt did just beat VT last year. The Big East's top schools could compete with most ACC's schools on a given day. WITH THAT ALL SAID...over the long haul the ACC's top end teams are better than the Big East's top teams were. Not really up for debate. Proof is that WVU goes to the Big 12 and they were pretty bad last year when faced with a tougher and deeper conference week in and week out.

Ignore the top end teams and just look at the middle of the pack schools, playing the likes of GT, UNC, NC State is tougher than playing UCONN, USF, and Cincy. It just is and it isn't really debatable. The ACC is tougher at the top and deeper and tougher at the bottom.

 

[CaliCuse]

I think you are right about one thing in your reply, recruiting does not exist in a vacuum. If SU sinks to the bottom of the ACC out of the gate, all the football heritage in the world, including the enhanced ability to "showcase" that heritage and the new facilities, will not entice top tier talent to come here at any greater rate than we see now.

The only thing that matters in the immediate future is winning. IMO, the program needs to make it to a bowl game, any bowl game, in the next two years, or it will likely sink to the bottom of the ACC. And once there, the climb back out becomes much more difficult. Ask BC and Duke fans.

The program must take advantage now of the momentum of the new league, the new money, the new staff, and the most recent bowl wins. That window of opportunity IS narrow.

Speaking of Harrison,It seems he will be persona non grata forever. He has had a anti Orange chip on his shoulder since he left and now with his legal problems doesn't seem likely he will be invited back as a role model for the team.

 

[SWC75]

I think you meant to respond to OPA, Steve. In any case, I agree with you.

Yes. I was agreeing with your point. That's why I copied OPA's statement.

 

[OrangePA]

I think you are right about one thing in your reply, recruiting does not exist in a vacuum. If SU sinks to the bottom of the ACC out of the gate, all the football heritage in the world, including the enhanced ability to "showcase" that heritage and the new facilities, will not entice top tier talent to come here at any greater rate than we see now.

The only thing that matters in the immediate future is winning. IMO, the program needs to make it to a bowl game, any bowl game, in the next two years, or it will likely sink to the bottom of the ACC. And once there, the climb back out becomes much more difficult. Ask BC and Duke fans.

The program must take advantage now of the momentum of the new league, the new money, the new staff, and the most recent bowl wins. That window of opportunity IS narrow.

I guess I just don't see your perspective at all.

We are coming off an 8-5 season with a bowl win and with a lot of returning players on both sides of the ball.

We are not going to sink in the ACC.

A few other thoughts.

BC is having an outstanding recruiting season under Addazzio - that did not take long.

We have yet to benefit from the ACC money or the new IPF.

We have what many in the ACC do not have - a tremendous college football heritage.

Duke, NC, NC State, MD, Wake, and others have simply not produced the likes of Ben Schwartzwalder or Bud Wilkinson or Howard Jones or Biggie Munn - or Tom Coughlin.

And they have not produced the best players at their positions of all time - Jim Brown, Jim Ringo, Gary Anderson, Marvin Harrison, Dwight Freeney, Walt Sweeney, John Mackey.

They have not produced Floyd Little or Ernie Davis.

They have not produced perhaps the greatest college team ever - 1959.

SU Football has succeeded for many years without the financial resources that so many in college football have had over the years.

Well, all that changes this year.

And there is nothing "narrow" about our window of opportunity.

The window is wide open.

We need to win but I see that as inevitable.

 

[007]

I guess I just don't see your perspective at all.

We need to win but I see that as inevitable.

I take your first statement in this reply as a "badge of honor."

As for your last sentence, this is the basis for the difference in our opinions. For clarification, I am not commenting on, or predicting, the likelihood of winning in the ACC over the next few years. Only time will tell and this will be determined only on the field. However, I am stating that I believe that it is very important that we do win and win soon, otherwise we run the risk of "sinking to the bottom of the ACC."

If that perspective seems "unreasonable" to you, I am OK with that.

As an aside, I do find your use of the word "inevitable" to be interesting, projective, and predictable...

 

[OrangeinBoston]

I guess I just don't see your perspective at all.

We are coming off an 8-5 season with a bowl win and with a lot of returning players on both sides of the ball.

We are not going to sink in the ACC.

A few other thoughts.

BC is having an outstanding recruiting season under Addazzio - that did not take long.

We have yet to benefit from the ACC money or the new IPF.

We have what many in the ACC do not have - a tremendous college football heritage.

Duke, NC, NC State, MD, Wake, and others have simply not produced the likes of Ben Schwartzwalder or Bud Wilkinson or Howard Jones or Biggie Munn - or Tom Coughlin.

And they have not produced the best players at their positions of all time - Jim Brown, Jim Ringo, Gary Anderson, Marvin Harrison, Dwight Freeney, Walt Sweeney, John Mackey.

They have not produced Floyd Little or Ernie Davis.

They have not produced perhaps the greatest college team ever - 1959.

SU Football has succeeded for many years without the financial resources that so many in college football have had over the years.

Well, all that changes this year.

And there is nothing "narrow" about our window of opportunity.

The window is wide open.

We need to win but I see that as inevitable.

Do you see it as inevitable that SU wins THIS year? I see that as being critically important or a lot of the recruits will bail. I think SU will be fine on defense, but the right side of the O line is untested, the QB will be either brand new or limitedly experienced, and the WRs a question mark.

 

[dollarbill44]

ACC football is nothing to write home about in the national picture. I mean most of those schools football wise have worse fan-bases than we do when it comes to filling up a stadium. FSU/Clemson/VT are the elite of that conference. Everyone else is a step below. Miami ain't Miami anymore and never will be, too many people watching every move that program makes now. They are middle of the road in the ACC.

But WVU did put up 70pts on Clemson not that long ago in the Orange bowl. L'Ville did just beat an SEC school in the Sugar Bowl. Pitt did just beat VT last year. The Big East's top schools could compete with most ACC's schools on a given day. WITH THAT ALL SAID...over the long haul the ACC's top end teams are better than the Big East's top teams were. Not really up for debate. Proof is that WVU goes to the Big 12 and they were pretty bad last year when faced with a tougher and deeper conference week in and week out.

Ignore the top end teams and just look at the middle of the pack schools, playing the likes of GT, UNC, NC State is tougher than playing UCONN, USF, and Cincy. It just is and it isn't really debatable. The ACC is tougher at the top and deeper and tougher at the bottom.

I had to laugh at how your main points are "not debatable" - what's the point of debating then? And for the record, I disagree.

 

[baggerbob]

1987-2003 AP poll Miami T25 [16], Florida St [17], Notre Dame [12], Syracuse [9], Virginia Tech [8], Clemson [8], next ACC Virginia, Georgia Tech at 6, West Virginia 4. The only schools that outperformed Syracuse in the ACC or Big east during that time were Miami, Florida St, Notre Dame. Those are facts, not conjecture, also T10 and T6 Miami [11-11], Florida St [14-14], Notre Dame [5-5], Syracuse [2-2], Virginia Tech [3-2], Clemson [2-0] Georgia Tech, North Carolina, West Virginia all were 2-1.

 

[SWC75]

I guess I just don't see your perspective at all.

We are coming off an 8-5 season with a bowl win and with a lot of returning players on both sides of the ball.

We are not going to sink in the ACC.

A few other thoughts.

BC is having an outstanding recruiting season under Addazzio - that did not take long.

We have yet to benefit from the ACC money or the new IPF.

We have what many in the ACC do not have - a tremendous college football heritage.

Duke, NC, NC State, MD, Wake, and others have simply not produced the likes of Ben Schwartzwalder or Bud Wilkinson or Howard Jones or Biggie Munn - or Tom Coughlin.

And they have not produced the best players at their positions of all time - Jim Brown, Jim Ringo, Gary Anderson, Marvin Harrison, Dwight Freeney, Walt Sweeney, John Mackey.

They have not produced Floyd Little or Ernie Davis.

They have not produced perhaps the greatest college team ever - 1959.

SU Football has succeeded for many years without the financial resources that so many in college football have had over the years.

Well, all that changes this year.

And there is nothing "narrow" about our window of opportunity.

The window is wide open.

We need to win but I see that as inevitable.

I don't think recruits know or even care at that much, at least during the recruiting process about what happened in past decades. They may come to appreciate it when they get here. I'm also not sure how much winning the Pinstripe Bowls meant to the rest of the country.

And I do think it will hurt us if we do badly in our first couple of years in the conference. We are trying to open up new recruiting areas in the south.

But my gut feeling is that we will pass that initial test and that recruits up and down the coast will see SU as a place they can go to play big-time football and have a measure of independence from home will maintaining contact with the their families. It think that will prove more important than "tradition" when it comes to recruiting them.

 

[SWC75]

1987-2003 AP poll Miami T25 [16], Florida St [17], Notre Dame [12], Syracuse [9], Virginia Tech [8], Clemson [8], next ACC Virginia, Georgia Tech at 6, West Virginia 4. The only schools that outperformed Syracuse in the ACC or Big east during that time were Miami, Florida St, Notre Dame. Those are facts, not conjecture, also T10 and T6 Miami [11-11], Florida St [14-14], Notre Dame [5-5], Syracuse [2-2], Virginia Tech [3-2], Clemson [2-0] Georgia Tech, North Carolina, West Virginia all were 2-1.

If we can consistently perform at the level we were in in (I would choose 1987-2001), we'll be fine in the ACC.

 

[The Viking]

Do you see it as inevitable that SU wins THIS year? I see that as being critically important or a lot of the recruits will bail. I think SU will be fine on defense, but the right side of the O line is untested, the QB will be either brand new or limitedly experienced, and the WRs a question mark.

I'm not so sure recruits will bail or lose interest if we're not successful this year (bowl eligible?). Should we do poorly, I think SU will continue getting looks from top recruits. My reasoning is that with recruiting looking good right now, SU has pieces in place to be successful beyond this year, and that becomes part of the pitch to athletes. Heck, they're the ones who do the pitching as often as not once they're on board. But you're certainly right that we'd better get some more talent for the OL in the locker room pretty soon.

 

[SWC75]

ACC football is nothing to write home about in the national picture. I mean most of those schools football wise have worse fan-bases than we do when it comes to filling up a stadium. FSU/Clemson/VT are the elite of that conference. Everyone else is a step below. Miami ain't Miami anymore and never will be, too many people watching every move that program makes now. They are middle of the road in the ACC.

But WVU did put up 70pts on Clemson not that long ago in the Orange bowl. L'Ville did just beat an SEC school in the Sugar Bowl. Pitt did just beat VT last year. The Big East's top schools could compete with most ACC's schools on a given day. WITH THAT ALL SAID...over the long haul the ACC's top end teams are better than the Big East's top teams were. Not really up for debate. Proof is that WVU goes to the Big 12 and they were pretty bad last year when faced with a tougher and deeper conference week in and week out.

Ignore the top end teams and just look at the middle of the pack schools, playing the likes of GT, UNC, NC State is tougher than playing UCONN, USF, and Cincy. It just is and it isn't really debatable. The ACC is tougher at the top and deeper and tougher at the bottom.

First you seem down on the ACC and then up on them a paragraph later.

As to West Virginia it may just be that last year's team was not as good as the ones they have had before that. Time will tell.

 

[dollarbill44]

1987-2003 AP poll Miami T25 [16], Florida St [17], Notre Dame [12], Syracuse [9], Virginia Tech [8], Clemson [8], next ACC Virginia, Georgia Tech at 6, West Virginia 4. The only schools that outperformed Syracuse in the ACC or Big east during that time were Miami, Florida St, Notre Dame. Those are facts, not conjecture, also T10 and T6 Miami [11-11], Florida St [14-14], Notre Dame [5-5], Syracuse [2-2], Virginia Tech [3-2], Clemson [2-0] Georgia Tech, North Carolina, West Virginia all were 2-1.

From 1987-2003, Miami and VT were either independent or in the Big East, so you can't count them.

 

[SU2NASA]

"Baseball is 90% half mental." - Yogi Berra

I believe his quote is "baseball is 90% mental, the other half is physical" or something to that effect.

 

[OrangePA]

I don't think recruits know or even care at that much, at least during the recruiting process about what happened in past decades. They may come to appreciate it when they get here. I'm also not sure how much winning the Pinstripe Bowls meant to the rest of the country.

And I do think it will hurt us if we do badly in our first couple of years in the conference. We are trying to open up new recruiting areas in the south.

But my gut feeling is that we will pass that initial test and that recruits up and down the coast will see SU as a place they can go to play big-time football and have a measure of independence from home will maintaining contact with the their families. It think that will prove more important than "tradition" when it comes to recruiting them.

Just disagree.

Many recruits mention Ernie Davis and The Express.

And everybody knows Jim Brown - and of course Freeney and McNabb and probably Bulluck.

Part of the recruiting process involves exposing players to the history - SU has one and Duke for one, does not.

And that is why SU has over the years succeeded with very little financial support.

Doing well is preferable to doing badly of course, but the money and the infrastructure will mean more to the program in the future than the 2013 W-L record.

 

[OrangePA]

Do you see it as inevitable that SU wins THIS year? I see that as being critically important or a lot of the recruits will bail. I think SU will be fine on defense, but the right side of the O line is untested, the QB will be either brand new or limitedly experienced, and the WRs a question mark.

Well, I'm not sure anything is inevitable.

I guess I feel that the talent level on the team has been enhanced - that the young players are talented and will reveal themselves this year.

I am also hopeful that we will be stronger at QB this year than most anticipate.

I frankly think we are now more athletic at that position than we were last year - we will miss Ryan's brain and experience but with better legs the inexperience might be covered a bit.

So, I'm optimistic but I can't predict the W-L record this year.

What is most important is that we will have the ACC, the revenue and the IPF - and that - along with our amazing football legacy - will draw better recruits.