Upon Further Review

[OttosBestFriend]

WITH THAT ALL SAID...over the long haul the ACC's top end teams are better than the Big East's top teams were. Not really up for debate. Proof is that WVU goes to the Big 12 and they were pretty bad last year when faced with a tougher and deeper conference week in and week out.

Ignore the top end teams and just look at the middle of the pack schools, playing the likes of GT, UNC, NC State is tougher than playing UCONN, USF, and Cincy. It just is and it isn't really debatable. The ACC is tougher at the top and deeper and tougher at the bottom.

Agree 100%

Over the last 10 years, the Big East's middle (4th, 5th, & 6th place teams) have been more comparable with the ACC's bottom third (save for Duke who had been quite weak until last season)

Sure the Big East's 1st and 2 place teams were no worse than any from the ACC, but top to bottom, the ACC has been much stronger.

It's the same argument everyone used in touting Big East basketball as the best - top to bottom there were no equals... The Big East hoops conference had 10-12 and sometimes 13 strong basketball programs in a given year with only DePaul and Rutgers being awful season after season.

Well, the ACC has had 7-8 good or really good football teams each season over the past 10 years with only one team (Duke) that spent 90% of that time in the basement... Every other program competed for conference titles and made big bowls.

The Big East hasn't come close to that depth.

And worst of all, Syracuse was "the Duke" of the Big East for much of that time.

 

[cpatrocks]

And worst of all, Syracuse was "the Duke" of the Big East for much of that time.

Ouch - that stings.

 

[SWC75]

Yes, if we get off to a bad start - that's bad.

I get it.

But getting off to a bad start - when the impact of the new conference affiliation and the new revenue and new infrastructure has not even begun - will not be fatal to the Program - not even close.

I find the comparison to Providence College BB a difficult one.

First, it's BB - not FB.

In BB a small school with few resources can effectively compete by securing a single dominant player or two. That's why a Georgetown or St. Johns or Butler or Davidson or George Mason or that team from Florida this past year - I can't even come up with the name - can compete with teams like NC or UCLA or KY or SU. When Providence had Marvin Barnes and Ernie D - and Kevin Stacom - it competed. When it lost out on those players, it didn't compete. When Georgetown had Pat Ewing and others it won the NC. When it didn't - it didn't. When St. Johns had Chris Mullin and Walter Berry it won. When it failed to get those players - when the NCAA stopped it from giving housing money to players who went to school but who lived at home - it did not win. It was and remains all about talent.

And in BB securing one or two talented players can make all the difference in the world.

Football is a different game. It's driven by money. And it requires many talented players.

Syracuse University - because of great coaching and great tradition - has had success over the years without having a lot of money.

Though many - you included - were under the impression back in the early 2000s that SU had facilities and financial resources that were comparable to most other major programs, that was not even close to being true.

It's still not true.

But soon it will be closer to being true than ever before.

And that reality - combined with the truly remarkable legacy of the program for nearly 100 years - will make a significant difference - even if the team slips a little bit next year - something that I feel will probably not happen.

Second, looking at the Providence BB experience thirty three years ago is a stretch simply because college sports were in a different universe back then - it's hard to compare 1979 CBB to 2013 CFB for so many reasons.

So, yes, it would be good for the Orange to get off to a good start.

But time is on our side now.

Well, we both feel that we will not get off to a bad start, that we will at least be competitive. And if we do get off to a bad start I certainly hope that you are right and I am wrong.

 

[SWC75]

Yeah, but we have many, many, many legends.

Okay - One school has a Lawrence Taylor and one has Johnny Unitas. Heck, Rutgers has Paul Robeson.

But I'm not talking about isolated examples.

I'm talking about many, many all-time greats - the best at their positions - Mackey, Jim Ringo, Walt Sweeney, Jim Brown, Gary Anderson, Harrison, Ernie Davis, Csonka, Johnston, Freeney - even Jim Nance - and on and on.

We have had all-time great coaches - Schwartzwalder, Howard Jones, Bud Wilkinson, Biggie Munn, Ossie Solem - even Nick Saban and Jim Tressel for gosh sakes.

We have many high profile Bowl games - Orange Bowls, Cotton Bowls, Fiesta Bowls and on and on.

We have what many [including Lee Corso] consider the greatest college football team of all time - 1959 (a team that gave up 180 yards rushing - for the entire season!)

I'm not dismissing other schools.

I am pointing out that when one looks at the entire history of SU Football one sees a program that is way up there - far beyond most schools, including NC, Louisville, NCST, Wake, UVA and many otherss.

So, I feel pretty good about SU Football right now - money and tradition.

Wilkinson, Saban and Tressel were assistant coaches here for a brief time. So was Biggie Munn, who was then head coach fro one year. Howard Jones was head coach for one year- over 100 years ago. Do they give us a recruiting advantage? Does Ossie Solem? I just think you overstating your case just a bit.

 

[OrangePA]

Wilkinson, Saban and Tressel were assistant coaches here for a brief time. So was Biggie Munn, who was then head coach fro one year. Howard Jones was head coach for one year- over 100 years ago. Do they give us a recruiting advantage? Does Ossie Solem? I just think you overstating your case just a bit.

You forgot to mention Big Ten legendary coach Duffy Daugherty who, after being in the SU Football program, went with Biggie Munn to Michigan State.

You just don't see things the way I do.

That's pretty much true for many aspects of the Program and has been for a long time.

But in answer to your question, yes, those facts do give us a recruiting advantage or at least recruting leverage.

And if you don't accept that, then you've probably never been in sales or dealt professionally with the art of persuasion.

The facts I have mentioned are celebrated in those SU Football Media Guides that you have been reading all these years. Those Guides are used in recruiting and that's why the history section in each is so prominent and important.

The legacy of a program helps sell the program - for many years that's about all we had.

Now we will have money to go along with the legacy.

Nothing more to say - I understand that you see things differently.

 

[OrangePA]

Well, we both feel that we will not get off to a bad start, that we will at least be competitive. And if we do get off to a bad start I certainly hope that you are right and I am wrong.

Right. I think we will get off to a good start.

We may not be world beaters but I think we will be fine.

 

[SWC75]

You forgot to mention Big Ten legendary coach Duffy Daugherty who, after being in the SU Football program, went with Biggie Munn to Michigan State.

You just don't see things the way I do.

That's pretty much true for many aspects of the Program and has been for a long time.

But in answer to your question, yes, those facts do give us a recruiting advantage or at least recruting leverage.

And if you don't accept that, then you've probably never been in sales or dealt professionally with the art of persuasion.

The facts I have mentioned are celebrated in those SU Football Media Guides that you have been reading all these years. Those Guides are used in recruiting and that's why the history section in each is so prominent and important.

The legacy of a program helps sell the program - for many years that's about all we had.

Now we will have money to go along with the legacy.

Nothing more to say - I understand that you see things differently.

I'm certainly aware of the facts. I write about them all the time. I just don't think that teenagers come to SU because of Ossie Solem.

 

[007]

I'm certainly aware of the facts. I write about them all the time. I just don't think that teenagers come to SU because of Ossie Solem.

Let's face it SWC, you just don't "see" things the right way.

 

[OrangePA]

I'm certainly aware of the facts. I write about them all the time. I just don't think that teenagers come to SU because of Ossie Solem.

Why do you write about them all the time???

 

[OrangePA]

Let's face it SWC, you just don't "see" things the right way.

Wow.

You really take these discussions personally.

It's just talk - that's the whole point of this board.

In all fairness, at least get the quote right - "you don't see things the way I do."

 

[SWC75]

Why do you write about them all the time???

Because I enjoy it. I have a great appreciation for the history of the Syracuse football program, (and history in general). But the coaches are not trying to recruit me.

Even a teenager is savvy enough to know that if a coach is talking about coaches, players and teams from decades ago it's because he doesn't want to talk about what's happening now. A recruit wants to believe that he'll be part of successful teams now. If you just went 2-10, that's a pretty hard sell.

I think our two recent Pinstripe Bowl victories probably do us more good in recruiting players now than the 1960 Cotton Bowl.

 

[OrangePA]

Because I enjoy it. I have a great appreciation for the history of the Syracuse football program, (and history in general). But the coaches are not trying to recruit me.

Even a teenager is savvy enough to know that if a coach is talking about coaches, players and teams from decades ago it's because he doesn't want to talk about what's happening now. A recruit wants to believe that he'll be part of successful teams now. If you just went 2-10, that's a pretty hard sell.

I think our two recent Pinstripe Bowl victories probably do us more good in recruiting players now than the 1960 Cotton Bowl.

I know you enjoy it.

But you also feel the need to share with the rest of us - especially the old stuff - you know, your "Bold Brave Men of Archbold" stuff.

You obviously think we enjoy it - that it means something to us or should mean something to us.

And, you're probably right about that.

All people - including teenagers, as you refer to them - want to be part of something special.

The appeal of ND is certainly not South Bend - it is a god awful place.

The appeal is the history of the program - the special character of the program - something that a NC or Wake or UVA simply does not have. If you think Knute Rockne is not mentioned during the ND recruiting process I believe that you're quite wrong.

If history did not mean much it would not be promoted in the way it is these days on The Hill or in the Media Guides you collect.

So, while Duffy Daugherty did not directly recruit a 2013 teenager, he along with Jim Brown, Ernie Davis, the 1959 team, Bud Wilkinson and other historical components of the SU Football History did help recruit the young man - they made the kid feel that he was becoming part of something special.

So, when you undertake to boil my observation down to a smart alec comment like "Ossie Solem did not recruit a teenager" I think frankly that you're being a bit smirky.

I think my point was that in the recent past SU has relied a great deal on its football tradition in recruiting. Now, with the ACC, it will have much more than that - it will have money, infrastructure - the "wow" factor - and a bit more conference panache.

The tradition will play a strong role in selling the program - as it always has - but it will be greatly bolstered by resources that heretofore were not available.

 

[007]

Wow.

You really take these discussions personally.

It's just talk - that's the whole point of this board.

In all fairness, at least get the quote right - "you don't see things the way I do."

Maybe...

But if I did take these discussions "personally," I would likely start my reply/diatribe with "wow" and you would know for sure.

I suspect that you are now going to tell me that "no, you would not."

 

[OrangePA]

Maybe...

But if I did take these discussions "personally," I would likely start my reply/diatribe with "wow" and you would know for sure.

I suspect that you are now going to tell me that "no, you would not."

I disagree with you about the "narrow" window you seem to see on the horizon of SU Football in 2013.

It seemed that my thoughts bothered you - that you seemed hurt by them and took it all personally.

I am sorry for that.

The "wow" I used in my post was an expression of surprise over your reaction. It was not an aggressive or passive aggressive challenge.

P.S. I still think your perspective is dead wrong! Sorry!

 

[Stern]

I know you enjoy it.
The appeal of ND is certainly not South Bend - it is a god awful place.

The appeal is the history of the program - the special character of the program - something that a NC or Wake or UVA simply does not have. If you think Knute Rockne is not mentioned during the ND recruiting process I believe that you're quite wrong.

100% wrong. The appeal of ND is playing EVERY game on National TV and 99% of their games are on FREE Over the Air Network TV. Every home game is on NBC. Every road game is on ABC/CBS. Maybe once a year they "slum" it down to ESPN. But even that is very rare. ND's worst TV game of the year is on ESPN. That's their WORST TELEVISED GAME! MOST schools best games are on ESPN and they never crack a national over the air network game!

ND isn't selling history they are selling exposure. Go to ND and your friends and family (along with NFL scouts and coaches) can watch you every game even if they don't have cable essentially or search around to some oddball station to find the game or pay for a pay per view package or anything!!

 

[SWC75]

I know you enjoy it.

But you also feel the need to share with the rest of us - especially the old stuff - you know, your "Bold Brave Men of Archbold" stuff.

You obviously think we enjoy it - that it means something to us or should mean something to us.

And, you're probably right about that.

All people - including teenagers, as you refer to them - want to be part of something special.

The appeal of ND is certainly not South Bend - it is a god awful place.

The appeal is the history of the program - the special character of the program - something that a NC or Wake or UVA simply does not have. If you think Knute Rockne is not mentioned during the ND recruiting process I believe that you're quite wrong.

If history did not mean much it would not be promoted in the way it is these days on The Hill or in the Media Guides you collect.

So, while Duffy Daugherty did not directly recruit a 2013 teenager, he along with Jim Brown, Ernie Davis, the 1959 team, Bud Wilkinson and other historical components of the SU Football History did help recruit the young man - they made the kid feel that he was becoming part of something special.

So, when you undertake to boil my observation down to a smart alec comment like "Ossie Solem did not recruit a teenager" I think frankly that you're being a bit smirky.

I think my point was that in the recent past SU has relied a great deal on its football tradition in recruiting. Now, with the ACC, it will have much more than that - it will have money, infrastructure - the "wow" factor - and a bit more conference panache.

The tradition will play a strong role in selling the program - as it always has - but it will be greatly bolstered by resources that heretofore were not available.

Players want two things- to play on a winning team and to get to the NFL. They will be impressed by things that convince them that that will happen.

You gave me a lengthy check-list of aspects of SU football history, including coaches like Solem who coached decades ago and implied that all of those things are specific reasons why today's teenagers would come here. I was pointing out that some of the things you listed are clearly not the reasons a teenager would come here. A current SU recruit is probably aware of Ernie Davis and may know who Jim Brown is. I'm sure he's heard of Donovan McNabb and some other recent SU players that made it in the NFL. That helps, somewhat. The rest of what you listed are things you and I know about but the recruit almost certainly doesn't. We can tell him we won the national championship 50+ years ago but I doubt that would make much difference to him.

You once referred to the ACC as a "Big Boy Conference" you were glad we were now in. What makes it a "Big Boy" conference is that the schools in it have significant football histories while the Big East was full of wannabes trying to establish a reputation after being small-time for years. Now, all of a sudden, you're saying we've got a history the ACC schools won't be able to match. Duke has quite a football history: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_Blue_Devils_football
Great players. Great coaches, (they even had Howard Jones as coach, one of the guys you mentioned as being part of the Syracuse history). Great teams. Their problem is, it's all in decades past. Their reputation now is of being a basketball school. If we have to resort to pitching what we were decades ago to get recruits, we'll be just like them. Fortunately, our present isn't too bad and our future could be pretty good. That will mean much more to current recruits than the glories that occurred before they, or their fathers or their grandfathers were born.

 

[SWC75]

I disagree with you about the "narrow" window you seem to see on the horizon of SU Football in 2013.

It seemed that my thoughts bothered you - that you seemed hurt by them and took it all personally.

I am sorry for that.

The "wow" I used in my post was an expression of surprise over your reaction. It was not an aggressive or passive aggressive challenge.

P.S. I still think your perspective is dead wrong! Sorry!

You're right. It's very important not to take these discussions personally. Everyone has a right to their opinion and if their opinion is not yours, there is no point in getting angry with them.

 

[Niastri]

I think our two recent Pinstripe Bowl victories probably do us more good in recruiting players now than the 1960 Cotton Bowl.

I think every recruit should have a DVD of "The Express" in his mailbox early on in the process. That does nothing but help our brand and puts the history in perspective. No doubt I am not the first person to think of this, lol.

 

[SWC75]

I think every recruit should have a DVD of "The Express" in his mailbox early on in the process. That does nothing but help our brand and puts the history in perspective. No doubt I am not the first person to think of this, lol.

And it would hurt West Virginia's recruiting, even though that part of it was B.S.