What must John Wildhack consider as he decides Dino Babers’ fate?

[HRE Otto IV]

Regardless of who it is (and they certainly are sending a message knowing about the finances. it's not some random guy Rick)...there's a message being sent that this isn't an easy decision for the AD and the school. It is concerning for sure that someone's agenda felt it was important for this story to get out.

It should be an easy decision, which makes the fact that it isn't in SU's eyes a problem.

 

[llandz]

I don't see Gadsden returning to the current program. I doubt anyone good is coming back. It is too easy to go elsewhere. Build a name or a reputation and take it to the next level. Why not. It is how we all do it with our jobs. Moving to a better program is like a job promotion.

 

[Bayside44]

I don't believe it's the SUAD making these excuses.

Also the facilities spending was necessary. We needed to do that AND spend money on NIL. Can't not have basic necessities. The issue was the several prior decades of incompetence and underinvestment. Can't stress this enough. We can't have most of our teams working out in a little area of Manley that would make a neighborhood gym look glamorous.

The NIL will continue to change, facilities are eternal.

Once the middleman is cut out of NIL and schools will make direct payments to players this will all show the new reality.

 

[rrlbees]

How do "coaching industry people" know if SU's athletic budget breaks even? Or the details on their donor commitments to facilities upgrades?

There's a bunch of quoted items in there that can only come from someone who knows things.

The budget breaking even isn’t a quote by these sources. It’s something Carlson said.

The donor commitments to facilities also aren’t the words of the industry sources. They are Carlsons words and are public knowledge.

Show me an industry source quote that could have only come from someone who really knows meaning an SU person. I can’t see any.

If an SU person was Carlsons source then he should have said anonymous source, not lie and say industry source (and he wasn’t lying).

 

[Cusefan95]

Which is why this quote is so absurdly dumb I can barely process it...

"If you’re the Yankees, you should be beating everyone. If you’re the Royals, every win is a bonus. The way that you assess a coach has to change."

Such a stupid analogy. I guess I missed the Mets and Padres playing in the NLCS this season. If we've learned anything from pro sports over the past couple decades it's that simply spending a ton of money doesn't guarantee a damn thing.

You need to balance the appropriate amount of large salaries with oodles of cost-controlled talent. You need a player development pipeline to ensure you have that cost-controlled talent. You need great talent evaluators and coaching staff to build that pipeline.

The era of NIL is going to turn college programs into pseudo-MLB franchises from a financial management standpoint. Syracuse is a small-market team, but that doesn't mean we should shut the program down. We simply need to have smart people making smarter decisions.

I mean the Diamondbacks have MLB's 21st ranked payroll, after all.

The Royals played in the World Series in 2014, and won it in 2015. That's a more recent championship than either the Mets, Yankees. So wins is a bonus for them is BS - and they prove you can win if you spend your limited resources wisely.

If Syracuse football had matched the performance level of the Kansas City Royals over the last two decades, I'd be ecstatic.

 

[HRE Otto IV]

The 2016 and 2017 teams stunk on D. I wonder if Dino had gone for the Long system (Gonzales?) from the start would he even be in this position? That alone likely gets us a Bowl in 2017.

Ultimately the recruiting issues on O would have done him in 2020-2023, but maybe a better 1st two years helps both recruiting and his current leash.

 

[Scooch]

The budget breaking even isn’t a quite by these sources. It’s something Carlson said.

The donor commitments to facilities also aren’t the words of the industry sources. They are Carlsons words and are public knowledge.

Show me an industry source quote that could have only come from someone who really knows meaning an SU person. I can’t see any.

If an SU person was Carlsons source then he should have said anonymous source, not lie and say industry source (and he wasn’t lying).

There's like three quotes in the entire piece. Typically in a piece that relies so heavily on unnamed sources there are precious few quotes, and the writer supplies the perspective of his sources.

Look, maybe it had nothing to do with anyone at SU. Who knows.

 

[OrangeXtreme]

I don't see Gadsden returning to the current program. I doubt anyone good is coming back. It is too easy to go elsewhere. Build a name or a reputation and take it to the next level. Why not. It is how we all do it with our jobs. Moving to a better program is like a job promotion.

A month ago, OG was leaning toward coming back (vs the NFL).

Throw in a new HC, new OC, and a new QB, and who knows.

 

[Cuse181]

I’m so tired of “Cry me a River” about lack of funds. BC, Wake, Pitt, Virginia, GT, Duke, and Miami all draw lousy crowds for football. Syracuse leads in attendance every year in basketball, but we can’t compete with any of these schools. SU probably receives more money for naming rights for the Dome than any other college stadium in the country. I believe SU raised $47 million last year for donations, which might be the highest in the ACC. We get an even split of money with all ACC schools, yet we can’t compete. JB was on the cheap for 47 years compared to other top programs. Dino is number 47 out 67 in salary. Where the hell are they spending the money? I’m tired of excuses.

wake has a sweet heart deal with clawson. They're never going to be the same after he leaves

 

[jr4750]

Here is where I disagree strongly with many here. Saying it’s time for a change based on results is fine, making Coach Babers into some kind of grifter thats fleecing the University is wrong. Everyone that knows the coach knows that’s not who he is, having a bad run of games does not mean you have no character. I’ll stand by that .

Well said.

 

[Cusefan95]

Yesterday I was up at Bryant University for a lacrosse thing that was held at their IPF (shared with football). I was dumbfounded thinking about how Bryant -- a little 3K student, FCS school -- built their place a full year before SU opened theirs.

This cannot be stressed enough. All the comments on here about how we've spent boatloads of money and are committed don't seem to realize how little we've spent relative to a lot of our peers and how far behind we are many schools. It took 20+ years of underfunding to get to this point as well - it would take a generation of stable and firm commitment to address adequately.

 

[orangenauburn]

This cannot be stressed enough. All the comments on here about how we've spent boatloads of money and are committed don't seem to realize how little we've spent relative to a lot of our peers and how far behind we are many schools. It took 20+ years of underfunding to get to this point as well - it would take a generation of stable and firm commitment to address adequately.

Or a billion dollar donation from a wealthy Saudi alum

 

[UnknownOrange]

I disagree with that on the offensive side. Dino inherited Dungey, Strickland, Estime, Philips and Ismael. Do we have anyone even close to that coming back next year? Maybe only Gadsden if his NFL prospects are dim because of his injury.

2 former 4star QBs are in the room. We did not have that in 2015. Our talent level in 2015 was not great. Dungey was a freshman who missed time due to injury but you could see the potential there. We'll see what 2024- looks like, but we definitely have ACC level talent in a lot of places.

 

[orangeinjersey]

 

[UpstateSM]

View attachment 232736

We can't have Dino in our social club anymore, that much I do know

 

[Consigliere]

So you sign a coach to a contract of which you can’t afford to buy out if need be? AD malpractice

Dino hit the jackpot

Guess that in retrospect we should have foregone the investment in assistant coaching, the doubling of support staff positions and facilities upgrades coming out of two years of extensive red ink in 2020 and 2021.

Timing and financial realities must play a part in any decision. Failing to do so WOULD be AD malpractice

 

[OburgOrange]

Here is where I disagree strongly with many here. Saying it’s time for a change based on results is fine, making Coach Babers into some kind of grifter thats fleecing the University is wrong. Everyone that knows the coach knows that’s not who he is, having a bad run of games does not mean you have no character. I’ll stand by that .

I’m not saying that. What I’m saying is the AD screwed up by not having any leverage (buy out money) for a coach they hire. It could be any coach, not just Dino. I like the guy. I just don’t want him coaching our team anymore

 

[007]

Also the facilities spending was necessary. We needed to do that AND spend money on NIL. Can't not have basic necessities. The issue was the several prior decades of incompetence and underinvestment. Can't stress this enough.

This is a reality we need to wrap our heads around. We have to understand how we got here before we cast stones.

The focus has been to at least approach the ACC median with respect to facilities, salaries, and support staff. This is where resources are directed. Anyone who has seen what every other school in the conference has in this regard knows that we were at the bottom. As you said, the commitment here has been "major" and necessary to long term survival in the face of conference realignment.

Maybe a more subtle factor behind where we find ourselves currently is the timing of Covid and the implementation of NIL. The Lally Complex and support staff additions were delayed by at least 2 years. NIL came on board in 2021. A "perfect" storm that only compounded the impact of SU's late to the party decision making. People like to distill this down to SU is too cheap, only interested in cashing checks, and whatever else gets tossed around. We are in catch up mode in so many areas...

 

[oldpinepoint]

This cannot be stressed enough. All the comments on here about how we've spent boatloads of money and are committed don't seem to realize how little we've spent relative to a lot of our peers and how far behind we are many schools. It took 20+ years of underfunding to get to this point as well - it would take a generation of stable and firm commitment to address adequately.

Sadly we have had bad leadership at all the wrong positions for the last twenty years. Doesn’t help you had a lousy chancellor (Cantor), and a lousy AD in gross where we got substantially behind. Now we are playing catch up however the next driver of the sport in NIL has come up. At some point you will have to bite the bullet and spend money to make money, they might involve taking a loss. But get the facilities done and make the commitment to NIL.

I’m a firm believer that you can’t have a coach go into the final year of his contract and not extend him. You can’t run a program like that. You can’t recruit, you can’t fundraise you can do much of anything, it’s a freaking disaster. Now the university has to crap or get off the pot. We will know by thanksgiving what will happen.

by all accounts the AD department is profitable. Maybe Carlson doesn’t understand fund accounting, beats me. It’s possible that the AD department generates a profit with all extra funds being sent to the main university budget, but that would be silly. Bottom line this is another hit job article on the university that is for click bait during a time when the program isn’t doing well.

 

[DPCuse]

This this this. Is there anyone here who can walk us through a back-of-the-envelope in approximate numbers?

What is the ACC revenue distribution? How much do we get from ticket sales? What is approximate gross revenue?

How much do we have to shell out to cover schollies across the entire AD?

Where the hell is the money going?

Keep in mind that "break even" is a bit funny accounting. When you include scholarships, which run about $80K a student, then the costs accumulate quickly given how many athletes we have. Even if there were 200 that equates to $16M. There are only a handful of athletic programs across the country that are profitable even after allocating costs like scholarships.

 

[Consigliere]

The one thing in the article that surprised me was the statement that SU’s athletic department breaks even annually and any funds for a buyout would have to come from donors or SU institutionally. Where is all the ACC money going?

Lacrosse, soccer, field hockey, track, cross country, women’s basketball. Football revenue - including ACC media rights and revenue sharing - funds it all.

 

[orangenauburn]

Sadly we have had bad leadership at all the wrong positions for the last twenty years. Doesn’t help you had a lousy chancellor (Cantor), and a lousy AD in gross where we got substantially behind. Now we are playing catch up however the next driver of the sport in NIL has come up. At some point you will have to bite the bullet and spend money to make money, they might involve taking a loss. But get the facilities done and make the commitment to NIL.

I’m a firm believer that you can’t have a coach go into the final year of his contract and not extend him. You can’t run a program like that. You can’t recruit, you can’t fundraise you can do much of anything, it’s a freaking disaster. Now the university has to crap or get off the pot. We will know by thanksgiving what will happen.

by all accounts the AD department is profitable. Maybe Carlson doesn’t understand fund accounting, beats me. It’s possible that the AD department generates a profit with all extra funds being sent to the main university budget, but that would be silly. Bottom line this is another hit job article on the university that is for click bait during a time when the program isn’t doing well.

We could also prepare for coaches "NIL"

You can supplant coaches pay with NIL packages for the staff as well with the right boosters and programs.

That's something we are behind the 8 ball on as well

 

[orangenauburn]

Lacrosse, soccer, field hockey, track, cross country, women’s basketball. Football revenue - including ACC media rights and revenue sharing - funds it all.

Cant believe basketball doesn't offset things - that program made so much money for the school for forty years.

For that money to not have been reinvested in the athletic department is just malpractice.

 

[PhatOrange]

Wildhack only needs to consider hiring a big name coach who'll re-energize the fan base and have a boost in ticket sales without playing a game. Or hiring a coach who will make average joes shrug their shoulders and not buy a ticket until they see the product.

Greg Robinson averaged over 40K his first year and the opener drew 45. Marrone's first game saw 48K play Minnesota.

The boost in tickets sales from a big name coach will pay for itself for awhile.

 

[sutomcat]

If SU can't buy out ONE YEAR of Dino's contract then we should downgrade the program.

I'm 100% serious.

I also don't believe that for a second.

Just to be clear, no one from SU said anything in that article. The author of the piece is using conjecture and an anonymous source for his article.

It is not clear if that source is someone from SUAD. Based on the quotes the source provided, and how SUAD is run, I was be very surprised if it was.