When Benny finally figures it out…

[twinight]

My OP goes back to comment made in a coaches thread by SWC.
I really didn’t want to have to explain thar but because you want to pin me down i gave the context. That is the origin of the original statement that statement is in relation to the last 8 years.

Somebody wanted to take a shot at Benny Williams. My statement pushed the blame at the people who are paid.

I have not given up on Benny but I believe Bulldog who has said he is gone and he has connections with the program.
I think Benny will get better. I hope its here.
If this fanbase wants to defend JB’s decisions to the degree it will rip a good kid i wil fire back and put it on tbe adults who are paid.
They built the roster and left it short. If Benny isn’t ready then the staff should have brought in another forward.
They clearly missed up the talent evaluation.

"If this fanbase wants to defend JB’s decisions to the degree it will rip a good kid i wil fire back and put it on tbe adults who are paid."

I appreciate you white-knighting for Benny, but you haven't thought through your own argument. You're falling all over yourself to blame Boeheim for a kid not reaching his potential part-way through his freshman season. You're "putting it on the adults who are paid." And so you've offered us these two options:

1. The coaching staff can't develop talent.

But that can't be the answer because they have developed talent, including on this year's team.

Which leaves us only your second option...

2. They can't evaluate talent.

Which means you're saying when they thought Benny would be a good player for us they were wrong. In your attempt to defend him you left us one option: That he's just not that good.

I happen to disagree with your simplistic two-alternative idea. I think Benny's story is as yet unknown. He's shown some flashes but as of yet he hasn't contributed much. I have a feeling that will change.

But to say the coaches "clearly messed up the talent evaluation" by thinking he would be a good player-- that's a very disparaging thing to say. How dare you "rip a good kid" like that.

(I'm done. You can have last word.)

 

[OttoinGrotto]

You never want to throw in the towel on a kid having a rough first year.

There can be truth in the staff doing a poor job with roster construction and development in addition to a player being way more of a project than rankings would suggest.

VT called it out in the post game thread but Benny doesn't go out there and play and compete like kid that wants it. He seems to say all the right things for sure and is a great kid. He just doesn’t have that intensity on the court you need to have if you are going to play and be a non scorer.

He has a ton of work to do before next year. Given recent examples it is a little difficult to be overly optimistic he can get there.

Bulldog has alluded to how in highschool Benny was the focus of his team. Had plays drawn for him, knew he was counted on to score.

Right now he's asked to play a role that's misaligned to what he knows basketball to be. Yeah, yeah, I know, gotta learn how to contribute and make his own impact with hustle/defense/rebounding/whatever. But that's not his game, it's never been his game, and maybe it can become his game, but it requires way more thinking to do than he's used to.

Which is weird, right? Because it seems so simple. And yet we're seeing pretty clearly that it's not.

I cling to the belief that Benny is going to be fine. He's insanely uncomfortable, which is unfathomable to him. The basketball court has been his home and right now he feels like a stranger on it.

His head will get right, and he'll get more comfortable once his playing conditions are more aligned with what's familiar to him.

Now I know that's going to be unsatisfying to some people. He should be a team guy. He should adjust his game. He should embrace what helps the program and what's asked of him. That's all fine to talk about. But it actually doesn't work for everybody. It's why Billy Edelin told Etan that he would try to get McNeil a bucket now and again because he knew if he felt involved he'd play even better on defense.

Comfort matters. People keep saying Benny looks lost. But a big percentage of that "lostness" is that he's really uncomfortable.

 

[cuseinseattle]

Post the top 35 kids you are talking about.
Show your work.
Bees asks people to prove their points.
Post the top 35 kids and the schools.

I am sick of fans ripping the people who don’t get paid. The coaching staff gets paid. If this is busting and i like the kid its the coaching staff that gets the blame either they misevaluated the kid or they have done a terrible job using the kid.

This staff decided to only recruit 1 HS kid, this staff decided to go into the season with Jimmy, Cole, and Benny as the rotation for forwards.
If Benny is struggling then the staff did a terrible job building the roster.

This stuff is on the coaching staff.

There are very few top 35 kids not averaging 10 points a game and up. Brandon Huntley-Hatfield is one that comes to mind who has struggled. Benny is unusual

 

[oTTo113445]

Benny will get there no doubt; his reflexes and rebounding need tuning. His finesse and strength game both need work before he fully arrives, imo.

 

[OrangeTown]

Does this mean the coaching staff is terrible at recruiting HS players and offering scholarships to HS players or the coaching isn’t good at player development?

It’s got to be one of the other based on your comment.

While I usually appreciate your insights, Alsacs, I don't feel this is a true statement.

The staff can be good at recruiting HS players, and the coaching can also be good at player development, yet a player can still not perform well or pan out the way people anticipated. I don't feel it has to be one or the other.

As someone with no horse in this race, other than as a die hard Syracuse fan, I personally haven't seen much from Benny that has given me that warm, fuzzy feeling.

I'm not sure how anyone can "show their work", as coaching development is not necessarily a quantitative thing. I mean I could pull the current year stats from the top 50 freshman recruits, but how do you link their successes or failures to either them or their coaches? Is Banchero crushing it at Duke because Coach K and his staff is amazing, or was he destined for greatness regardless of where he went? Would Benny be amazing if he had gone to Duke? I don't feel these are worthwhile arguments because they are centered on assumptions for the most part.

I think the initial comment that Benny is lost is not a wild one. I still hold out hope that things will get turned around (either by him, or the coaching staff, or both), but I haven't seen a ton that has made me extremely excited thus far.

Edit: I didn't read the 2 and a half pages after the initial post, so take this with a grain of salt as it seems the same view has been discussed amongst parties since then.

 

[Dcuse]

You don’t get it. If you think this is a one year statement.
Again our player development has been poor lately.
Credit to Coach Griffin for Jesse. Credit to JB as well he is the HC.

Beyond that it has been since 2015 we have had a big play this well on both ends.
Player development has been poor for a while.
How much better did 5 star Tyus Battle get from Freshman year to thru Jr. year.

I can list examples. A lot of our players have been made products recently. Very little improvement other than just getting more usage.
We haven’t good PG and C for a while. We have done a good job placing duct tape and white knuckling in the regular season. That builds up my point.

Our recruiting hasn’t been great since 2016. We aren’t getting the same level of classes. We got a 5 star last year.

Again if you need more context ask for it but you just want to attack the guy you subjectively disagree.
I am not lazy like the other guy and just say you are stupid if I don’t like what is said.
The point being made isn’t a 1 year example. Its a systematic point.

Player development and recruiting haven’t been the same.
The HC will say whatever to justify what defends what he does.
If you can’t figure out my point was in jest to that sorry I have to explain it.

I stopped reading the rest of the gibberish after questioning that Tyus Battle got better from his freshman year. Did you really say that? We’ll all give you a chance to delete that post if you want to in order to avoid further embarrassment.

 

[kcsu]

Its all mental. Some kids dont do well with JBs style of motivation

 

[Alsacs]

I stopped reading the rest of the gibberish after questioning that Tyus Battle got better from his freshman year. Did you really say that? We’ll all give you a chance to delete that post if you want to in order to avoid further embarrassment.

Where did Tyus Battle improve over 3 years?
The fact you can’t understand the point isn’t my fault. You don’t want to comprehend the point instead you want to white knight and yell at people you disagree without proving anything.

Battle’s usage increased from his freshman year to sophomore and junior years.
More shots and minutes increased his production. That isn’t player development.
Please explain how he got better beyond more usage?

You can’t even decipher what is being said before trying to fight somebody you want to rip.

Do the work like the other guy did.

 

[Dcuse]

Where did Tyus Battle improve over 3 years?
The fact you can’t understand the point isn’t my fault. You don’t want to comprehend the point instead you want to white knight and yell at people you disagree without proving anything.

Battle’s usage increased from his freshman year to sophomore and junior years.
More shots and minutes increased his production. That isn’t player development.
Please explain how he got better beyond more usage?

You can’t even decipher what is being said before trying to fight somebody you want to rip.

Do the work like the other guy did.

You know...sometimes it’s ok to say “ I used a bad example there.” Tyus Battle is near the end of any list you want to choose from to support your argument of a player who didn’t improve.

 

[Alsacs]

You know...sometimes it’s ok to say “ I used a bad example there.” Tyus Battle is near the end of any list you want to choose from to support your argument of a player who didn’t improve.

My god counter the point.
Tyus Battle was a 5 star kid.
We didn’t develop his game over his 3 years.
He was a finished product when he came in.
How you can’t understand the point is amazing.

Getting more playing time and increasing numbers isn’t player development.
You still don’t get the point and want to fight.

Where did Tyus improve over 3 years? He went from a 2nd round draft pick after his sophomore year to undrafted after his junior year. He should have left after his sophomore year its why people on here who advocate for players when they leave instead of being selfish for the program don’t care when players hurt themselves staying in school.

Explain how Tyus Battle improved with player development over his Syracuse career. Getting more PPG when you play the entire game isn’t getting better it’s getting more shots each game.

You don’t get the point and continue to fight.

 

[Dcuse]

My god counter the point.
Tyus Battle was a 5 star kid.
We didn’t develop his game over his 3 years.
He was a finished product when he came in.
How you can’t understand the point is amazing.

Getting more playing time and increasing numbers isn’t player development.
You still don’t get the point and want to fight.

Where did Tyus improve over 3 years? He went from a 2nd round draft pick after his sophomore year to undrafted after his junior year. He should have left after his sophomore year its why people on here who advocate for players when they leave instead of being selfish for the program don’t care when players hurt themselves staying in school.

Explain how Tyus Battle improved with player development over his Syracuse career. Getting more PPG when you play the entire game isn’t getting better it’s getting more shots each game.

You don’t get the point and continue to fight.

I really don’t want to fight but when you say things that just aren’t true I feel compelled to respond. Tyus improved in every facet over time here - ball handling,shooting,passing,defense- the eye test is important. As for draft position, you should know that you can go from a good contributor to a first option alpha on your team but by simply staying an extra year your draft stock drops. It’s a concept I can’t understand for the life of me and I hate,hate,hate it. So I always advocate for a kid to leave early as much as I hate to do so because of this mentality of NBA choosers.

 

[Newhouser]

I warned people at the beginning of the year when some people said he was the next melo. The expectations were outrageous. His ranking was also outrageous. He had the ultimate green light in HS and majority of his highlights happened in space and with no one playing real defense. His athletic ability is through the roof but this was about what I was expecting and why Jimmy is playing here as well...

Is he going to bolt or stay?

 

[tptcuse]

Is it possible that you all can be correct? The fact that there are only three forwards (plus JBA) and only two can contribute is the problem. Either the staff expected Benny to be better right away or he hasn't developed as they expected. Doesn't matter which one. Shouldn't they have gotten another forward from the portal? They lost AG, Marek, Quincy, Woody, and Braswell.

 

[CousCuse]

Is it possible that you all can be correct? The fact that there are only three forwards (plus JBA) and only two can contribute is the problem. Either the staff expected Benny to be better right away or he hasn't developed as they expected. Doesn't matter which one. Shouldn't they have gotten another forward from the portal? They lost AG, Marek, Quincy, Woody, and Braswell.

If they got another forward from the portal that could play at the ACC level and be a force on the team, he would have had some serious demands.

 

[Bayside44]

Benny needs lots of work. He’s a great athlete, but he really needs to work on his basketball skills offensively. He can’t shoot or get to the rim right now. Frankly he’s been a bit overrated by scouts, our fans, and our coaches. It’s going to take time and expectations appear to be way too high for him at the beginning of the season.

This is the normal development curve of a kid, esp a forward here. Discarding a kid or a coaching staff at the start of a kid's second semester in college is nuts.

Plus with all the COVID stuff done to kids in high school, they just weren't playing ball.

 

[tptcuse]

If they got another forward from the portal that could play at the ACC level and be a force on the team, he would have had some serious demands.

Like what?

 

[HoustonCuse]

You don’t get it. If you think this is a one year statement.
Again our player development has been poor lately.
Credit to Coach Griffin for Jesse. Credit to JB as well he is the HC.

Beyond that it has been since 2015 we have had a big play this well on both ends.
Player development has been poor for a while.
How much better did 5 star Tyus Battle get from Freshman year to thru Jr. year.

I can list examples. A lot of our players have been made products recently. Very little improvement other than just getting more usage.
We haven’t good PG and C for a while. We have done a good job placing duct tape and white knuckling in the regular season. That builds up my point.

Our recruiting hasn’t been great since 2016. We aren’t getting the same level of classes. We got a 5 star last year.

Again if you need more context ask for it but you just want to attack the guy you subjectively disagree.
I am not lazy like the other guy and just say you are stupid if I don’t like what is said.
The point being made isn’t a 1 year example. Its a systematic point.

Player development and recruiting haven’t been the same.
The HC will say whatever to justify what defends what he does.
If you can’t figure out my point was in jest to that sorry I have to explain it.

Where I differ with you on this is that I don’t really give our coaching staff that much credit for Jesse’s improvement. I don’t like when people trash JB for saying he was not ready last year and then crow about how wrong he was because now Jesse looks great.

Historically, JB has been pretty solid (like one of the best in the game) at talent evaluation. He also has a style that allows, being honest, most of his players to flourish. There are a good number that really struggle under that style as well, Roberson probably being the biggest recent example of that. In the case of Jesse, he definitely wasn’t this player last year, he improved massively over the summer, with whatever hard work he put in. Im sure our coaches told him what he needed to work on, but he did it.

Benny, maybe everyone missed on evaluating him, or maybe he’s that Roberson type personality that just can’t get on the same wavelength as JB, it appears he just can’t out of neutral to me. JB isn’t giving up on him and gives him more minutes than he’s shown he deserves. Maybe he just needs a year of digesting what the coaches want from him and working in that or maybe he just will never be able to flourish in this style of coaching.

 

[CousCuse]

Like what?

Like he would want to start and play 30+ a game. And, if Benny turned out to be ready he wouldn't be getting that.

 

[Trueblue25]

Can’t ever remember a recruit ranked so high look so bad.Syracuse walk on players looked like they had more of clue than Benny does.

This board was down on Rak too and look how that played out.

 

[tptcuse]

Like he would want to start and play 30+ a game. And, if Benny turned out to be ready he wouldn't be getting that.

We could have promised someone a starting position. JB said in the last week that he didn’t expect that Jimmy would be starting.

 

[CousCuse]

We could have promised someone a starting position. JB said in the last week that he didn’t expect that Jimmy would be starting.

He didn't expect James to start because he thought Benny would take the spot, it's his for the taking. If you wanted a guy better than James your talking a superstar player.

 

[tptcuse]

This board was down on Rak too and look how that played out.

I don’t think people are “down on Benny.” People seem more baffled than anything. Everyone seems to be rooting for him.

 

[CousCuse]

I have thought about this for a while and have come to a simple answer. All of benny's struggles comes from his shooting slump. almost every game he makes a nice move to give himself a nice look and it doesn't go down. I think at that point his mind freezes up. He is a skilled and trained and experienced shooter and I don't think he has ever had to deal with this in the past. He just can't believe it when it happens and he gets down on himself and it affects the rest of his game. He really just needs to see some shots drop and I think he will start playing some quality minutes.

 

[MSOrange]

I don’t think people are “down on Benny.” People seem more baffled than anything. Everyone seems to be rooting for him.

Agree. That's where I'm at. I realize you have to consider the competition, but after the two exhibitions, I thought he would at least be a contributor.

 

[Canadian]

There are very few top 35 kids not averaging 10 points a game and up. Brandon Huntley-Hatfield is one that comes to mind who has struggled. Benny is unusual

#11 Nate Bittle Ore
#12 Peyton Watson UCLA
#16 Hunter Salis Gonz
#19 Daimon Collins Kent
#21 BHH Tenn
#31 Jaulon Tyson Tex
#33 Bryce Hopkins Kent

all players averaging less than 6 points per game - all less than 15 minutes per night most less than 10