When you don’t have elite talent you need to adjust what you do depending on the matchup | Page 3 | Syracusefan.com

When you don’t have elite talent you need to adjust what you do depending on the matchup

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JB’s refusal to do anything but 100% zone defense barring the press is just not smart.

Don’t give me our players can’t play man to man defense or practicing it requires all this time.

The fact we don’t change against a team like UNC which KNOWS how to beat this zone is maddening.

I can’t wait to beat the 11 seed with North Carolina as the 2 seed and our potential sweet sixteen matchup.

Playing the zone 95% of the time isn’t a lot to ask. The refusal to adjust is what cost us that game. We couldn’t rebound in the zone. We couldn’t stop White and did we change? No and we lost a game our offense played well enough to win.


You're assuming that the zone is the same all the time and that only a man-for-man can guard people. It's really just a division of labor: do you guard whoever comes into your zone or do you try to follow a guy wherever he goes. A zone can be aggressive guarding people and cause turnovers of it's played aggressively. If the other team has no outside game, the zone can collapse inward and just create a wall to the basket. Don't confuse a zone poorly played at times or poorly played by one player with a bad scheme. And if you aren't active enough to cover players in the zone, you're not going to be very successful chasing him around the court. And if you do something 95% of the time and the other thing 5% of the time, which are they going to be better at

I would like to see some sort of press used proactively, one that at least puts moderate pressure on the other team and allows us to easily move back into the zone if a team successfully gets into the forecourt.
 
Isn't the full court press an attempt to break the opponent's rhythm?

I know it's not sustainable and often tires players out but I think we frequently try to break an opponent's rhythm by pressing, trapping, etc.

Again, I don't think it would matter much against a team like UNC. I think we have a pretty solid track record of effectively breaking the rhythm of teams with equal or lesser talent using the press.
Yes the press is also an attempt to break rhythm. Look, I'm not saying I know more than JB, its easy to type from my keyboard. It's just frustrating when we can't stop the other team, so I just don't see the harm in seeing if something else has a different effect.
 
If the other team has no outside game, the zone can collapse inward and just create a wall to the basket. Don't confuse a zone poorly played at times or poorly played by one player with a bad scheme. .
Steve, first off, there are very few teams that can't shoot from the outside these days. Many players are now more comfortable shooting 3's versus mid-range. Secondly, ANY team that is coached on proper spacing and ball reversals will find seams in the zone no matter how good the zone personnel is. The killer part is that it doesn't require McDs talent to learn how to pass through or shoot over the zone. This doesn't even get into the rebounding deficiencies which I will not get into.

But all that said, I completely appreciate that the zone can present situational advantages, especially some of the wrinkles that JB employs, and I would never want to see the next coach totally abandon it. But anyone who defends the way it is currently used 100% of the time has a case of Stockholm Syndrome as I said earlier.
 
Where did I say you said we should try M2M for 40 minutes?

I don't think switching to M2M for a few possessions will confuse many teams because they are most likely more comfortable attacking M2M defenses.

I understand that you think changing a few things up during the game might increase the odds of victory.

In this specific example, going M2M against elite talent (UNC), I don't think there's much that can be done because of the talent disparity.

I don't think Droopy is a better coach than Boeheim. I think he consistently has better players on his roster and they are a bad match up for SU.

If you were playing pick up at your local Y, and you had to guard the opposing team's 6'9 guy (tallest player on the court). Would you fare better in zone or M2M???

(It probably wouldn't matter).
talent disparity??????????

there was no talent disparity! if anything, SU played with more talent in the game - that's how they overcame the lopsided rebounding and free throw margins.

UNC won b/c of free throws and rebounds. not talent.

the game is 10 4-minute intervals. throw a couple wrinkles in for a few of those intervalas and teams will be unprepared. by the time they adjust after the next 4 minutes switch back - KEEP THE OPPONENT GUESSING.

JB already throws out the press occasionally and the aggressive trapping in the zone - the more wrinkles the better - the more stuff the opponent has to worry about the better. teams often turn the ball over 1 or 2 times the first time they are blitzed with a new scheme and are caught unprepared...then they adjust, generally. Plus, style of play in the game as influyenced by the warriors and the NBA lends itself to beating the zone better than ever, imo. players now are ready to chuck from 3 better than they were in NCAA of times past.

UNC switched to zone and then buddy hit a 3 right away so they abandoned zone - which was lucky for SU in my opinion.

having different options in the swiss army knife of defenses is better. nowadays, scouting and coaching has caught up a bit to the SU zone imo...time to keep opponents honest.

I remember stevie thompson shutting teams down in box and 1.

to me, i wish it wasnt the case - but 100% zone is a bit lazy.

the advantage is that the coach can adjust how the defense responds but for whatever reason that hasnt helped at all this year - the adjustments the team has been making haven't helped - and the team has been gutted in many second halves when the adjustements are supposedly supposed to make things better for the defense and harder for opponents.

some teams - big ones with great rebounding who can also shoot well from 3 - like odu, buffalo, unc - are great zone-busting teams and particularly likely to beat this ROSTER. syracuse has the height to play man - play chukwu, marek and ob as the forwards and they are taller than every team in the country - rebounding would be an ADVANTAGE for THIS TEAM in M2M. the current roster is WAY TOO TALL to be outrebounded by anyone 45-25. everyone on the court is 6-5 or taller thats insane height for NCAA plus a 7'2" center...its crazy height.
 
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talent disparity??????????

there was no talent disparity! if anything, SU played with more talent in the game - that's how they overcame the lopsided rebounding and free throw margins.

UNC won b/c of free throws and rebounds. not talent.

the game is 10 4-minute intervals. throw a couple wrinkles in for a few of those intervalas and teams will be unprepared. by the time they adjust after the next 4 minutes switch back - KEEP THE OPPONENT GUESSING.

JB already throws out the press occasionally and the aggressive trapping in the zone - the more wrinkles the better - the more stuff the opponent has to worry about the better. teams often turn the ball over 1 or 2 times the first time they are blitzed with a new scheme and are caught unprepared...then they adjust, generally. Plus, style of play in the game as influyenced by the warriors and the NBA lends itself to beating the zone better than ever, imo. players now are ready to chuck from 3 better than they were in NCAA of times past.

UNC switched to zone and then buddy hit a 3 right away so they abandoned zone - which was lucky for SU in my opinion.

having different options in the swiss army knife of defenses is better. nowadays, scouting and coaching has caught up a bit to the SU zone imo...time to keep opponents honest.

I remember stevie thompson shutting teams down in box and 1.

to me, i wish it wasnt the case - but 100% zone is a bit lazy.

some teams - big ones with great rebounding who can also shoot well from 3 - like odu, buffalo, unc - are great zone-busting teams. syracuse has the height to play man - play chukwu, marek and ob as the forwards and they are taller than every team in the country - rebounding would be an ADVANTAGE for THIS TEAM in M2M.
I swear it’s amazing how some people just can’t even comprehend how switching just temporarily can be used as an advantage.
Nobody is saying scrap the zone. It works. It’s just when the opponent knows how to beat maybe just throwing them off for a few possessions can switch momentum.

Playing 95% zone isn’t an indictment it’s just saying we can switch.
Mike Hopkins does it now.
 
talent disparity??????????

there was no talent disparity! if anything, SU played with more talent in the game - that's how they overcame the lopsided rebounding and free throw margins.

UNC won b/c of free throws and rebounds. not talent.

the game is 10 4-minute intervals. throw a couple wrinkles in for a few of those intervalas and teams will be unprepared. by the time they adjust after the next 4 minutes switch back - KEEP THE OPPONENT GUESSING.

JB already throws out the press occasionally and the aggressive trapping in the zone - the more wrinkles the better - the more stuff the opponent has to worry about the better. teams often turn the ball over 1 or 2 times the first time they are blitzed with a new scheme and are caught unprepared...then they adjust, generally. Plus, style of play in the game as influyenced by the warriors and the NBA lends itself to beating the zone better than ever, imo. players now are ready to chuck from 3 better than they were in NCAA of times past.

UNC switched to zone and then buddy hit a 3 right away so they abandoned zone - which was lucky for SU in my opinion.

having different options in the swiss army knife of defenses is better. nowadays, scouting and coaching has caught up a bit to the SU zone imo...time to keep opponents honest.

I remember stevie thompson shutting teams down in box and 1.

to me, i wish it wasnt the case - but 100% zone is a bit lazy.

the advantage is that the coach can adjust how the defense responds but for whatever reason that hasnt helped at all this year - the adjustments the team has been making haven't helped - and the team has been gutted in many second halves when the adjustements are supposedly supposed to make things better for the defense and harder for opponents.

some teams - big ones with great rebounding who can also shoot well from 3 - like odu, buffalo, unc - are great zone-busting teams and particularly likely to beat this ROSTER. syracuse has the height to play man - play chukwu, marek and ob as the forwards and they are taller than every team in the country - rebounding would be an ADVANTAGE for THIS TEAM in M2M. the current roster is WAY TOO TALL to be outrebounded by anyone 45-25. everyone on the court is 6-5 or taller thats insane height for NCAA plus a 7'2" center...its crazy height.

Talent diparity...

2 McDonald's AA guards (White & Little) > 0 for SU.

Luke Maye = Pre-Season ACC POY

Yes, they have more talented players than SU.
 
Talent diparity...

2 McDonald's AA guards (White & Little) > 0 for SU.

Luke Maye = Pre-Season ACC POY

Yes, they have more talented players than SU.
Maye was 2-12 little was 2-9..they sucked in the game.

white had a great game - helped by his 10 free throws and knocking down wide open 3s - but battle had an equally good performance.

every player on SU basically is a ESPN top 100 recruit - the labels of MDAA are a bit overrated, imo.

for DUke - i'll give it to you - with zion and barrett - but even with them the roster is pretty thin after those 2 and I'd take SU's roster 3-15 over duke's.

talent is not the issue with the squad - it is strategy, teamwork and a poorly constructed roster, which comes down mostly, unfortunately, to coaching and management, imo. the individual talent - the reason pre-season expectations were so high - is equal to any team in the country, imo.
 
Maye was 2-12 little was 2-9..they sucked in the game.

white had a great game - helped by his 10 free throws and knocking down wide open 3s - but battle had an equally good performance.

every player on SU basically is a ESPN top 100 recruit - the labels of MDAA are a bit overrated, imo.

for DUke - i'll give it to you - with zion and barrett - but even with them the roster is pretty thin after those 2 and I'd take SU's roster 3-15 over duke's.

talent is not the issue with the squad - it is strategy and teamwork, which comes down, unfortunately, to coaching imo. the individual talent - the reason pre-season expectations were so high - is equal to any team in the country, imo.

How was SU able to beat a more talented Duke team in Cameron without playing M2M for a brief stretch to "switch it up"?!?!

Edit - Could it have been "strategy, teamwork"???
 
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How was SU able to beat a more talented Duke team in Cameroon without playing M2M for a brief stretch to "switch it up"?!?!
first, i never said it is a 100% MUST to play man to man - but when you cannot stop an opponent in your bread and butter it just seems logical to try SOMETHING ELSE. its not about man - it's about being stuck in your ways and too rigid - which makes you more beatable and less competitive.

second, SU did switch it up big-time vs DUKE - battle was made PG and told to drive and create- that was a totally new wrinkle- they ran the ball up the court and took quick shots - it WORKED - and i thought it would be the new offense but they have mostly reverted back to the slow it down game, inexplicably.

If SU had played the typical slow down game they would've lost that game by 20.

it's not about MUST PLAY M2M -

it's about being flexible and ADJUSTING what you are doing in REAL TIME.

I swear JB already has his rotations planned before the games. which makes ZERO SENSE.

Howard and Hughes were both benched in the last 2 losses despite being hot and making a bunch in the first halves - keep them in if they are hot - even if you had planned to sub your son in...cuz they lost their touch after being on the pine...another example of what i'm getting at.
 
I swear it’s amazing how some people just can’t even comprehend how switching just temporarily can be used as an advantage.
Nobody is saying scrap the zone. It works. It’s just when the opponent knows how to beat maybe just throwing them off for a few possessions can switch momentum.

Playing 95% zone isn’t an indictment it’s just saying we can switch.
Mike Hopkins does it now.

Some people can’t understand that switching to a defense we never play and that the opposing team sees 90% of the time is a dumb idea.

They are fixated on this idea that surprise is going to discombobulate the opponent. That might happen occasionally when a M2M team switches to the seldom seen zone. But it isn’t going to happen when you switch to a defense they see almost exclusively during the season.
 
first, i never said it is a 100% MUST to play man to man - but when you cannot stop an opponent in your bread and butter it just seems logical to try SOMETHING ELSE. its not about man - it's about being stuck in your ways and too rigid - which makes you more beatable and less competitive.

second, SU did switch it up big-time vs DUKE - battle was made PG and told to drive and create- that was a totally new wrinkle- they ran the ball up the court and took quick shots - it WORKED - and i thought it would be the new offense but they have mostly reverted back to the slow it down game, inexplicably.

If SU had played the typical slow down game they would've lost that game by 20.

it's not about MUST PLAY M2M -

it's about being flexible and ADJUSTING what you are doing in REAL TIME.

I swear JB already has his rotations planned before the games. which makes ZERO SENSE.

Howard and Hughes were both benched in the last 2 losses despite being hot and making a bunch in the first halves - keep them in if they are hot - even if you had planned to sub your son in...cuz they lost their touch after being on the pine...another example of what i'm getting at.

Now I'm a little confused.

SU switching things against Duke is good because we won.

SU switching things against UNC is bad because they didn't work and we lost.

Help me out with this.
 
How was SU able to beat a more talented Duke team in Cameroon without playing M2M for a brief stretch to "switch it up"?!?!

Edit - Could it have been "strategy, teamwork"???

These guys don’t mention how the zone worked in the OT period against Duke.
 
These guys don’t mention how the zone worked in the OT period against Duke.
You want to be honest we beat Duke because their PG was out, Cam Reddish sat out and they are a terrible 3 point shooting team. Plus our offense scored a ton of points.
Defense did not win the Duke game.
 
Some people can’t understand that switching to a defense we never play and that the opposing team sees 90% of the time is a dumb idea.

They are fixated on this idea that surprise is going to discombobulate the opponent. That might happen occasionally when a M2M team switches to the seldom seen zone. But it isn’t going to happen when you switch to a defense they see almost exclusively during the season.
When the opponent knows we won’t switch it doesn’t shock them.
All you need is a few stops and rebounds and that game is different against UNC.
We are stubborn about not even trying anything but zone and a press.
Also it’s not like zones aren’t used by every team now. Duke has incorporated as a zone into their repertoire and they want to play ball pressure man to man.
 
You want to be honest we beat Duke because their PG was out, Cam Reddish sat out and they are a terrible 3 point shooting team. Plus our offense scored a ton of points.
Defense did not win the Duke game.

Yeah, that's comical. We gave up 91 points in that game...defense had nothing to do with that W as much as what you've alluded to. Our friend, Jack White's 0-10 on WIDE open looks from downtown were painful to watch when holding our breath during the entire duration while the ball was in the air. I kept thinking, jeepers he's so wide open, he's got make one sooner or later...how can this be, in Cameron to boot? But, the basketball gods were an SU fan that night. :)
 
The fact we have to look answers in the middle of the zone is a COACHING PROBLEM.

Of course It is. Lol.

You are aware that man to man give up 3’s too right?
 
You want to be honest we beat Duke because their PG was out, Cam Reddish sat out and they are a terrible 3 point shooting team. Plus our offense scored a ton of points.
Defense did not win the Duke game.

Pace of play and overtime contributed to the scoring.

Duke shot 38% overall and 20% from 3. Not great.

Reddish isn't special he scored 7 points the 2nd game. O"Connell killed us both games.

I agree with most of your points in this thread, but not this one.
 
There's an athletic article out there today talking about Battle's draft chances and all the opposing coaches say our offensive scheme is trash. Hard to disagree with them.
 
Yeah, that's comical. We gave up 91 points in that game...defense had nothing to do with that W as much as what you've alluded to. Our friend, Jack White's 0-10 on WIDE open looks from downtown were painful to watch when holding our breath during the entire duration while the ball was in the air. I kept thinking, jeepers he's so wide open, he's got make one sooner or later...how can this be, in Cameron to boot? But, the basketball gods were an SU fan that night. :)

Was it the basketball gods or the fact that Jack White's a 25% career 3pt shooter made it sound strategy to let him heave from deep?
 
Pace of play and overtime contributed to the scoring.

Duke shot 38% overall and 20% from 3. Not great.

Reddish isn't special he scored 7 points the 2nd game. O"Connell killed us both games.

I agree with most of your points in this thread, but not this one.
Fair points.
I don’t think the zone was why we beat Duke at Cameron as much as the injury to Jones did.
I am more than happy Jones got hurt because we won the game and that is all that matters.
Playing zone against Duke is just Smart this year because they suck at 3 point shooting.
Again I have no problem with the zone as the defense.
It works but when we play a team like UNC which knows how to shred us we don’t change and guess what we lose when our offense was good enough to win that game.
 
Was it the basketball gods or the fact that Jack White's a 25% career 3pt shooter that made it sound strategy to let him heave from deep?

Well, if he shoots his career average, even if he make just one of those, so 10% that night vs. 0%, we lose. Fact.

And, in regards to your comment about UNC's front line stature when it comes to rebounding. That's isn't the reason they are dominant on the boards, as this year's team lack's that type of physical stature. It's effort, grit, and mental toughness, and the way they go after the boards, etc. that's gets them those results. Ty Bowan of BC in his 6'1" physical stature, got 12 rebounds last night in the game against Louisville. He averages 8 rebounds per game...all 6'1" of him.
 
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Was it the basketball gods or the fact that Jack White's a 25% career 3pt shooter made it sound strategy to let him heave from deep?
Again against a team like Duke playing zone 100% makes sense.
They can’t shoot from 3.
The point here is when we play a team like UNC which kills us on the glass and basically has the strategy any first shot is a good shot because we will just get the rebound and score from that then maybe mixing in a little man to man help on the defense glass can help.
Our offense against UNC deserved better but the zone is why we lost that game and don’t adjust or try any different.
 
Fair points.
I don’t think the zone was why we beat Duke at Cameron as much as the injury to Jones did.
I am more than happy Jones got hurt because we won the game and that is all that matters.
Playing zone against Duke is just Smart this year because they suck at 3 point shooting.
Again I have no problem with the zone as the defense.
It works but when we play a team like UNC which knows how to shred us we don’t change and guess what we lose when our offense was good enough to win that game.

I think Duke ends up not winning it all because their shooting stinks. Jones is particularly awful. O'Connell is the only good shooter they have.
 
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