When you don’t have elite talent you need to adjust what you do depending on the matchup

[OrangeDW]

This is all I am talking about.
We can be a 95% of the time zone team.
Changing defenses when we are struggling on defense is all that is being debated.
Yet we have fans who think we can’t even try man to man and see if it will help momentum.
When we are getting shredded we do nothing different unless we press after scoring to try and speed the opponent up or force turnovers.

Yup. When we were a top 5 program, I didn’t question anything. Right now? I think it’s fair to say that perhaps some things should be re-examined and adjusted. Things change. Gotta adapt.

I will say, if we haven’t been playing man to man at all this year, then it’s too late now IMO. How you defend screens, the rotations, switching philosophy, etc...you need to practice that stuff a lot. If we haven’t been, we’re not going to be able to just go out and play a decent man defense in February against UNC.

 

[AlpharettaCuse]

This is all I am talking about.
We can be a 95% of the time zone team.
Changing defenses when we are struggling on defense is all that is being debated.
Yet we have fans who think we can’t even try man to man and see if it will help momentum.
When we are getting shredded we do nothing different unless we press after scoring to try and speed the opponent up or force turnovers.

But man to man gets shredded all the time. “Surprising” teams won’t matter. They see man to man every day.

 

[OrangeDW]

But man to man gets shredded all the time. “Surprising” teams won’t matter. They see man to man every day.

Sometimes switching defenses can be effective, at least for a stretch. Can change the pace, can better take away certain things, the opponent might take a bit to adjust how to best attack it, etc.

That said, we’re pretty good at making adjustments in our zone.

UNC always seems very well prepared to play against it though and good enough to execute their game plan too.

 

[AlpharettaCuse]

Sometimes switching defenses can be effective, at least for a stretch. Can change the pace, can better take away certain things, the opponent might take a bit to adjust how to best attack it, etc.

That said, we’re pretty good at making adjustments in our zone.

UNC always seems very well prepared to play against it though and good enough to execute their game plan too.

Yeah I saw Kansas switched from man to man to zone because they were giving up 3’s against Kansas State. It didn’t work. They gave up a lot more 3’s and lost. Stick with your defense.

 

[OrangeDW]

Yeah I saw Kansas switched from man to man to zone because they were giving up 3’s against Kansas State. It didn’t work. They gave up a lot more 3’s and lost. Stick with your defense.

So should we have stuck with it all the time in 2003 or nah?

 

[AlpharettaCuse]

So should we have stuck with it all the time in 2003 or nah?

We did.

 

[OrangeDW]

We did.

No we didn’t.

We went man against Pitt and ND, two of our best wins of the regular season.

We turned the OSU tourney game with our press...which they often broke. But it sped them up and got them shooting quicker, and Jeremy McNeil went bonkers blocking and altering layup attempts.

 

[Ryand877]

Yeah I saw Kansas switched from man to man to zone because they were giving up 3’s against Kansas State. It didn’t work. They gave up a lot more 3’s and lost. Stick with your defense.

They could have switched back.

 

[Alsacs]

Yeah I saw Kansas switched from man to man to zone because they were giving up 3’s against Kansas State. It didn’t work. They gave up a lot more 3’s and lost. Stick with your defense.

Kansas State vs. Kansas - Game Summary - February 25, 2019 - ESPN

Kansas just beat Kansas State by 15 on Monday be more specific.

 

[CardiacCuse]

Isn't the full court press an attempt to break the opponent's rhythm?

I know it's not sustainable and often tires players out but I think we frequently try to break an opponent's rhythm by pressing, trapping, etc.

Again, I don't think it would matter much against a team like UNC. I think we have a pretty solid track record of effectively breaking the rhythm of teams with equal or lesser talent using the press.

frequently??

no as a last resort at the end of games or when down by 20+

could easily use some of the more athletic bench players like carey bras and sidibe and press even when not as a last resort but as a tactic at any given moment.

 

[CardiacCuse]

Would chukwu ever see the floor if we played man?

he'd be better in man...much easier to keep track of 1 player he'd be much taller than than a gaurd and forward and lurking players who dunk over him on the reg...he's SOOO much more suited to man than zone...it'd be reason enough to try it on the basis of seeing how chukwu does in it alone.

 

[CardiacCuse]

There's an athletic article out there today talking about Battle's draft chances and all the opposing coaches say our offensive scheme is trash. Hard to disagree with them.

link?

 

[ForCuseSake]

frequently??

no as a last resort at the end of games or when down by 20+

could easily use some of the more athletic bench players like carey bras and sidibe and press even when not as a last resort but as a tactic at any given moment.

This thread is a collection of people whining about switching defenses temporarily when the zone struggles against an opponent with elite talent.

As you said, we use the press when facing a big deficit (i.e. when the zone isn’t working).

But the brain trust here thinks “surprising” the opponent that’s kicking our defense’s tail with M2M is going to break their rhythm (or insert your preferred cliche) and possibly turn the tide.

I’d be more in favor of sending a walk on into the game to kick the opposing team’s leading scorer in the crotch than trying M2M in all of the mythical hypotheticals used in this thread.

I mean that has to be more likely to screw up the opposing team’s offensive flow. Right?

 

[OrangeDW]

frequently??

no as a last resort at the end of games or when down by 20+

could easily use some of the more athletic bench players like carey bras and sidibe and press even when not as a last resort but as a tactic at any given moment.

We’ve done that a little more this season.

Not as much lately though.

 

[OrangeDW]

This thread is a collection of people whining about switching defenses temporarily when the zone struggles against an opponent with elite talent.

As you said, we use the press when facing a big deficit (i.e. when the zone isn’t working).

But the brain trust here thinks “surprising” the opponent that’s kicking our defense’s tail with M2M is going to break their rhythm (or insert your preferred cliche) and possibly turn the tide.

I’d be more in favor of sending a walk on into the game to kick the opposing team’s leading scorer in the crotch than trying M2M in all of the mythical hypotheticals used in this thread.

I mean that has to be more likely to screw up the opposing team’s offensive flow. Right?

Explain why we often switched defenses for 30 years? Was it stupid then, and coach just finally got smart in the last decade?

 

[CardiacCuse]

I will say, if we haven’t been playing man to man at all this year, then it’s too late now IMO. How you defend screens, the rotations, switching philosophy, etc...you need to practice that stuff a lot. If we haven’t been, we’re not going to be able to just go out and play a decent man defense in February against UNC.

fair point - but to me it is just crazy that a team that could put out the tallest lineup in the nation - last season the announcers kept saying how SU is the tallest in the nation - could ever be out rebounded 45-25.

to me they are ACTUALLY TRYING too! which is just crazy and has to come down to scheme...

i feel like man to man defense is what players grow up playing - what they play in pickup - and don't really think it would be that hard to just try without much prep - but also - why hasn't it been an option?

to me the only change from last year's truly dominant d -is hughes as a forward. he's not nearly as big of a player as marek at forward...and it has a big impact on the d.

last year's d and this year's o is basically a top 10 team, stats-wise...if you could somehow combine the 2...and ALL the SAME PLAYERS are back!!! plus some additions - easy to see why people are frustrated and questioning what is going on out there -seems so close to being legit if just a few tweaks could be made.

 

[CardiacCuse]

We’ve done that a little more this season.

Not as much lately though.

has it been done once when the team wasnt losing???? i dont think so...and I don't get it...it could be a weapon for this LONG TEAM that is good at stealing the ball all up and down the roster.

plus the team seems to perform better when more players are involved, imo...it would get everyone playing to use it more.

AND it brings out the aggression in the players which they feed off and gets the team out fo the slow down half court which is not good for anyone.

 

[ForCuseSake]

Explain why we often switched defenses for 30 years? Was it stupid then, and coach just finally got smart in the last decade?

We still switch between zone & press; where did I say switching defenses was dumb?

Playing M2M for a few possessions isn’t likely to negatively impact how an elite opponent scores against us.

It’s dumb to think playing M2M for a few possessions against a team with superior talent is going to throw them into dysfunction.

 

[OrangeDW]

fair point - but to me it is just crazy that a team that could put out the tallest lineup in the nation - last season the announcers kept saying how SU is the tallest in the nation - could ever be out rebounded 45-25.

to me they are ACTUALLY TRYING too! which is just crazy and has to come down to scheme...

i feel like man to man defense is what players grow up playing - what they play in pickup - and don't really think it would be that hard to just try without much prep - but also - why hasn't it been an option?

to me the only change from last year's truly dominant d -is hughes as a forward. he's not nearly as big of a player as marek at forward...and it has a big impact on the d.

last year's d and this year's o is basically a top 10 team, stats-wise...if you could somehow combine the 2...and ALL the SAME PLAYERS are back!!! plus some additions - easy to see why people are frustrated and questioning what is going on out there -seems so close to being legit if just a few tweaks could be made.

The offenses you play against in pickup aren’t what you see in real games. I don’t think it’s realistic to just go man when it’s not even in the arsenal. That’s like saying UNC should try a 1-3-1 zone or something. You can’t pkay it if you don’t prepare to play it.

There were articles written early in the decade where Boeheim shared some of his philosophy on why he went 100% zone starting in 2010. It might even be in his book too.

Can’t really argue with the results. But I’m not sure all the conditions are the same in 2019 as they were a decade ago.

I agree...Hughes is a downgrade on that end from Marek. IMO he’s gotta get in better shape and really make it a focus this offseason to become more of a factor on defense and rebounding. I think he can do it, too.

 

[CardiacCuse]

This thread is a collection of people whining about switching defenses temporarily when the zone struggles against an opponent with elite talent.

As you said, we use the press when facing a big deficit (i.e. when the zone isn’t working).

But the brain trust here thinks “surprising” the opponent that’s kicking our defense’s tail with M2M is going to break their rhythm (or insert your preferred cliche) and possibly turn the tide.

I’d be more in favor of sending a walk on into the game to kick the opposing team’s leading scorer in the crotch than trying M2M in all of the mythical hypotheticals used in this thread.

I mean that has to be more likely to screw up the opposing team’s offensive flow. Right?

its not only flow - its about SPECIFIC things that are happening -

1. a very tall (the tallest?) team being OBLITERATED on the boards? could it have something to do with zone?
2. how good are battle and howard as man to man defenders? we dont know. my personal hunch is that they's be pretty good. how good is chukwu as a man to man defender? i bet he'd be even better than in zone. brissett too...not too many 3s/4s are going to trouble him in man, imo...

and

3. i think to a man - SU would be TALLER than the opponent they are gaurding in man - which should be a good predictor of success, right?

I really doubt braxtn beverly gets his career-high like he did vs zone if battle was in his grill all game...he def didnt vs duke when they guarded him man to man...

to me its THIS ROSTER and THESE PLAYERS who are more suited to man than ZONE and not just about switching it up to mess with flow.

apart from size - they just aren't cerebral types that "think" the game very well - which makes zone tough - especially key players like chukwu/sidibe/brissett.

 

[OrangeDW]

has it been done once when the team wasnt losing???? i dont think so...and I don't get it...it could be a weapon for this LONG TEAM that is good at stealing the ball all up and down the roster.

plus the team seems to perform better when more players are involved, imo...it would get everyone playing to use it more.

AND it brings out the aggression in the players which they feed off and gets the team out fo the slow down half court which is not good for anyone.

Pretty sure we pressed with the lead at least a few times early in the season.

Can’t say I recall seeing that in ACC play though.

 

[OrangeDW]

We still switch between zone & press; where did I say switching defenses was dumb?

Playing M2M for a few possessions isn’t likely to negatively impact how an elite opponent scores against us.

It’s dumb to think playing M2M for a few possessions against a team with superior talent is going to throw them into dysfunction.

We used to switch between zone and man prior to 1996z Less and less after 1996, but it still happened on occasion from 96-2010. Many great coaches do.

If Coach doesn’t, he doesn’t. I just find it funny that some are dismissing it as “dumb” when he himself used to do it.

 

[CardiacCuse]

We used to switch between zone and man prior to 1996z Less and less after 1996, but it still happened on occasion from 96-2010. Many great coaches do.

If Coach doesn’t, he doesn’t. I just find it funny that some are dismissing it as “dumb” when he himself used to do it.

yeah I remember too!!! I've been watching since the 80s

 

[ForCuseSake]

We used to switch between zone and man prior to 1996z Less and less after 1996, but it still happened on occasion from 96-2010. Many great coaches do.

If Coach doesn’t, he doesn’t. I just find it funny that some are dismissing it as “dumb” when he himself used to do it.

Did Coach only switch to man for a few possessions against elite talent when the zone wasn’t working?

Or did he switch to man for the remainder of a half or game?

Did he make the switch based on matchups or foul trouble?

There are many reasons why JB played man in the 80s & 90s.

The point of this thread, which I believe is dumb, is that he should play man against a more talented team for a few possessions.

To switch it up.

Or get them out of rhythm.

Or surprise them.

 

[AlpharettaCuse]

They could have switched back.

Why didn’t they?