Where did the Big East screw up? | Page 2 | Syracusefan.com

Where did the Big East screw up?

A scenario that might have worked is PSU, Syracuse, BC, Rutgers, Pitt, WVU, VaTech, and someone (Army?) as 8, with future growth that might have included Cincy & UConn. That is a TRUE northeastern conference with some compelling teams. But Paterno apparently didn't want to go with Pitt, and WVU & VaTech weren't really in the picture yet, and basketball, and so on.

You're wrong about JoePa and Pitt. Paterno wanted a true Eastern conference in the worst way ... with BC, SU, Pitt, WV, Temple, Rutgers, and either Maryland or Va Tech. The problem was JoePa demanded equal revenue sharing for all non-football sports ... while Penn State kept all its' football revenue and bowl money. That's one of the reasons why it never got off the ground.
 
You're wrong about JoePa and Pitt. Paterno wanted a true Eastern conference in the worst way ... with BC, SU, Pitt, WV, Temple, Rutgers, and either Maryland or Va Tech. The problem was JoePa demanded equal revenue sharing for all non-football sports ... while Penn State kept all its' football revenue and bowl money. That's one of the reasons why it never got off the ground.
That "all sports" Eastern conference wasn't a fair deal at all. It would have been so Penn State slanted that it would have fallen apart. But nobody bought into it in the first place.
 
Has nothing to do with on-field or on-court results.

Markets.

TV deals.
I slightly disagree Marquette and DePaul were brought in so the conference would be balanced at 8 football/8 basketball school. Providence College didn't want to be outnumbered at the President/Chancellor meetings and run the risk of a 10/6 split and leave all the votes up to a football school majority. The additions of Marquette and DePaul were a power play by the basketball schools when they had the leverage because the football schools needed 3 new members because if Va Tech, BC, and Miami remained the football schools would have probably been forced to split and the basketball onlies i.e. really only Providence College and Seton Hall realized they were the ugly ducklings and wanted protection when the football schools split. Remember in 2005 when this BMW as Kaiser calls became 16 teams the NCAA said you must remain together for 5 years to get your NCAA Tournament shares and keep your automatic bid to the NCAA that was all Providence cared about adding the Chicago market was helpful but Marquette and DePaul were just to warm bodies available from C-USA who were smartly becoming an all-sports conference.
 
Well, I wasn't there for the negotiations, but to quote crouthamel, "At that time Pittsburgh and Penn State were bitter rivals, and Pittsburgh was less than enamored with aligning itself with Penn State.". Even if JoePa was for it, it sounds like Pitt may not have been. The Big East's move was to take Pitt instead of PSU. It certainly reads like there was a sense if incompatibility.
 
The problems go back to the very beginning when the Big East was organized as a basketball conferecne with football schools in it. The best thing that could have been done in 2003 is for the football schools to break away and move to 12 teams with a title game. They might even have made a counter-raid for ACC teams, some of which were said to be unhappy at the time. The copnstant talk aobut the Big losing it's BCS ranking was what brought this on and aslong as the basketball tail was wagigng the football dog, the conferecne was doomed.

The best thing the Big East could do now is proably to return to a basketball only conferecne and let the remaining football schools make the best deals they can.
 
The problems go back to the very beginning when the Big East was organized as a basketball conferecne with football schools in it. The best thing that could have been done in 2003 is for the football schools to break away and move to 12 teams with a title game. They might even have made a counter-raid for ACC teams, some of which were said to be unhappy at the time. The copnstant talk aobut the Big losing it's BCS ranking was what brought this on and aslong as the basketball tail was wagigng the football dog, the conferecne was doomed.

The best thing the Big East could do now is proably to return to a basketball only conferecne and let the remaining football schools make the best deals they can.
You think Providence College will let go of the money train they can get from Pitt and Syracuse for 2 more years or UConn, Louisville, West Virginia, and Cincinnati. I agree with your point, but these schools with nothing to gain like Seton Hall, Providence, DePaul will hold on the welfare they gotten till its taken from them. Tranghese said as much in his interview on the Mike'd Up he is going to protect Providence basketball and he will do everything he can keep it in a relevant conference or hello Patriot League for the Friars.
 
Somebody please fill in the details about how ND got the Big East to turn down the ESPN contract. If this is literally true, then why isn't ND getting a lot of flak from the pundits in the media?
It's amazing that Notre Dame got to vote, but Pitt was leading the negotiating crew, so they got the brunt of the backlash.
 
I slightly disagree Marquette and DePaul were brought in so the conference would be balanced at 8 football/8 basketball school. Providence College didn't want to be outnumbered at the President/Chancellor meetings and run the risk of a 10/6 split and leave all the votes up to a football school majority. The additions of Marquette and DePaul were a power play by the basketball schools when they had the leverage because the football schools needed 3 new members because if Va Tech, BC, and Miami remained the football schools would have probably been forced to split and the basketball onlies i.e. really only Providence College and Seton Hall realized they were the ugly ducklings and wanted protection when the football schools split. Remember in 2005 when this BMW as Kaiser calls became 16 teams the NCAA said you must remain together for 5 years to get your NCAA Tournament shares and keep your automatic bid to the NCAA that was all Providence cared about adding the Chicago market was helpful but Marquette and DePaul were just to warm bodies available from C-USA who were smartly becoming an all-sports conference.
The idea that the basketball only schools should remain 50/50 partners with an equal say is what doomed the conference. If there had been a football majority, the remaining basketball onlies would have been brought along for the ride and continued to fare well. But Providence was MORE concerned about the basketball schools than the football schools, and THAT is what has doomed the conference - or what will be left of it - to eventual Atlantic 10 status.
 
I think that having ND in the conference hurt the BE the most. ND had all the benefits of being in a conference but brought nothing to the table by keeping football out. Yeah they played their charity games every year to the BE while rolling in the BE TV dough and their own TV deal dough. If you notice that the bowls available after the first exodus diminished substantially compared to the ACC. ND still had an inside into the BCS with their affiliation with the BE and even took spots from BE teams in bowls that were for the conference. I know that ND gave the BE a national presence but they hijacked the new BE TV deal by voting it down. They shouldn't have had a vote unless they were willing to enter the BE for football also.
 
The idea that the basketball only schools should remain 50/50 partners with an equal say is what doomed the conference. If there had been a football majority, the remaining basketball onlies would have been brought along for the ride and continued to fare well. But Providence was MORE concerned about the basketball schools than the football schools, and THAT is what has doomed the conference - or what will be left of it - to eventual Atlantic 10 status.
"If there had been a football majority" is the operative phrase. There never was a football majority, and the basketball schools used all of their energy to assure that they would never be in the minority. SU, Pitt, BC were about to leave right after Penn St went off to the Big 10. But the BE made a quick move to form a football conference, adding Miami (the real prize) in all sports, and VT, WVa, Temple, Rutgers as football-playing members. Then, when they
had to accept that group (sans Temple) as full members, the BB schools made sure that they added ND, who would vote with them. In hindsight, I am sure UConn wishes they had voted with the FB schools and kept ND out, thus leaving the FB's with much more flexibility going forward.
 
"If there had been a football majority" is the operative phrase. There never was a football majority, and the basketball schools used all of their energy to assure that they would never be in the minority. SU, Pitt, BC were about to leave right after Penn St went off to the Big 10. But the BE made a quick move to form a football conference, adding Miami (the real prize) in all sports, and VT, WVa, Temple, Rutgers as football-playing members. Then, when they
had to accept that group (sans Temple) as full members, the BB schools made sure that they added ND, who would vote with them. In hindsight, I am sure UConn wishes they had voted with the FB schools and kept ND out, thus leaving the FB's with much more flexibility going forward.
Football did have a majority till 2003 when Va Tech, BC, and Miami left. It was 8 football and 6 basketball schools. Then those 3 left and were replaced by Louisville, Cincinnati, and South Florida for all sports, and Marquette and DePaul as basketball onlies. This made it 8 vs. 8 and gave Providence College more security which is all the BE Commish whether it be Tranghese or Marinatto care about.
 
"If there had been a football majority" is the operative phrase. There never was a football majority, and the basketball schools used all of their energy to assure that they would never be in the minority. SU, Pitt, BC were about to leave right after Penn St went off to the Big 10. But the BE made a quick move to form a football conference, adding Miami (the real prize) in all sports, and VT, WVa, Temple, Rutgers as football-playing members. Then, when they
had to accept that group (sans Temple) as full members, the BB schools made sure that they added ND, who would vote with them. In hindsight, I am sure UConn wishes they had voted with the FB schools and kept ND out, thus leaving the FB's with much more flexibility going forward.

The Big East basketball schools = the North Carolina schools in the ACC. A self interested voting block. The ACC ultimately triumphed over the Big East because they marginalized their zenophobes whereas the Big East continued to be ruled by them.
 
Football did have a majority till 2003 when Va Tech, BC, and Miami left. It was 8 football and 6 basketball schools. Then those 3 left and were replaced by Louisville, Cincinnati, and South Florida for all sports, and Marquette and DePaul as basketball onlies. This made it 8 vs. 8 and gave Providence College more security which is all the BE Commish whether it be Tranghese or Marinatto care about.
Not correct. When the 2003-04 raid occurred, 11 schools were left behind to pick up the pieces--SU, Pitt, WVa, Rutgers and UConn on the football side; and PC, GTown, SHall, StJ's and Nova, plus ND (who voted with the BB's) on the basketball side. All 5 new schools--USF, Louisville, Cincy (football) and Marq, DePaul (BB) came in at the same time. The six BB voters would only allow the FB's to have 3 more FB's (and thus, a league) if they could have 2 more BB's, thus maintaining the FB-BB balance.

The exact same thing happened in the mid-90's, when the ND group was invited in.
 
Not correct. When the 2003-04 raid occurred, 11 schools were left behind to pick up the pieces--SU, Pitt, WVa, Rutgers and UConn on the football side; and PC, GTown, SHall, StJ's and Nova, plus ND (who voted with the BB's) on the basketball side. All 5 new schools--USF, Louisville, Cincy (football) and Marq, DePaul (BB) came in at the same time. The six BB voters would only allow the FB's to have 3 more FB's (and thus, a league) if they could have 2 more BB's, thus maintaining the FB-BB balance.

The exact same thing happened in the mid-90's, when the ND group was invited in.

You are incorrect.

BC was one of the schools left to pick up the pieces in July 2003. Miami and Va Tech announced their intentions in June 2003 to leave the BE on June 30, 2004. BC was part of the committee to evaluate some of the replacement teams. Cinci, Louisville, Depaul and Marquette were secured as replacement teams in July, but could not get out of their contract with CUSA until June 30, 2005.

BC didn't announce that it was leaving the BE until October or November 2003, and had to stay until June 30, 2005. USF was a seperate deal to replace BC.

While all 5 schools joined at the same time (July 2005), they were voted in at different times.
 
After the 2003 raid the end was inevitable. Prior to 2003 the Big East actually had better football programs and markets and should have been the aggressor. But the BE leadership never valued or understood the football aspect. When they added Miami and Va Tech they did it only grudgingly and as a band aid to pacify the football schools, not out of any cogent plan. Instead of relying on the Providence mafia to run the conference and constantly be in conflict with the football schools, they could have brought in more savvy leadership and hired a member of one of the successful conferences like the SEC or Big 10. Then maybe they could have had a chance to develop a plan and avert what is now happening. The current leadership is just clueless.
 
You are incorrect.

BC was one of the schools left to pick up the pieces in July 2003. Miami and Va Tech announced their intentions in June 2003 to leave the BE on June 30, 2004. BC was part of the committee to evaluate some of the replacement teams. Cinci, Louisville, Depaul and Marquette were secured as replacement teams in July, but could not get out of their contract with CUSA until June 30, 2005.

BC didn't announce that it was leaving the BE until October or November 2003, and had to stay until June 30, 2005. USF was a seperate deal to replace BC.

While all 5 schools joined at the same time (July 2005), they were voted in at different times.
The point is--the BB's would not allow themselves to be in a minority position, either in 1995 or 2004. So both FB and BB schools were invited at the same time, and the FB's never had a voting majority. The FB's only option was to break away, and doing so would have cost them their NCAA "points"--lotsa $$$$.
 
The point is--the BB's would not allow themselves to be in a minority position, either in 1995 or 2004. So both FB and BB schools were invited at the same time, and the FB's never had a voting majority. The FB's only option was to break away, and doing so would have cost them their NCAA "points"--lotsa $$$$.
The FB schools had a majority till BC, Va Tech, and Miami left. (SU,RU,Pitt,WVU,UConn transitioning up to D-1A football vs. ND, Nova, Gtown, St. John's, Seton Hall, and PC.) That was a 14 team Big East with 8 football schools not including Temple who didn't have voting rights versus 6 basketball only members. Before Miami and co. left they proposed forming an all sports conference and were going to approach Florida State, Louisville, Cincinnati, and any 12th team but from my understanding the football schools didn't want to break away and so Miami left. If the football schools did break away you are talking a stronger league than the current ACC.
Miami
Florida State
Virginia Tech
West Virginia
Louisville
Pittsburgh
Syracuse
Boston College
Rutgers
UConn
Cincinnati
any 12th team East Carolina? Maryland? South Florida?
This is a freaking solid league, but instead the football schools didn't try to split off from the Providence Mafia Doofuses and now the football schools in the Big East are SOL and basically at the mercy of Providence College.
 
Miami
Florida State
Virginia Tech
West Virginia
Louisville
Pittsburgh
Syracuse
Boston College
Rutgers
UConn
Cincinnati

Add Temple to that for all sports and I like that better than the ACC. That conference would have put 8 of 12 teams in the NCAAT last year. FB is an easy split as well.

FSU, WV, Pitt, Louisville, Cincy, Temple
Miami, VT, SU, BC, UConn, RU

Or why not just compromise and do that for FB and have 18 in BBall? Play everyone once and your rival twice.

SU-GTown
FSU-Miami
WV-Pitt
Louisville-Cincy
UConn-BC
RU-Seton Hall
Temple-Nova
ND-St Johns
VT-PC

Bottom line is the BE should have gone at the very least for FSU. If you keep Temple that gets the BE to 10 FB and 15 BBall.
 
That league is basically what Raycom proposed in 1990. Jake considered it, and ultimately used it as leverage to get the BEFC formed. Looking back we should have gone all out to make it happen, but the gulf between football and hoops money wasn't nearly as wide as it is today, so I can understand how it would have been harder politically to pull off.

Funny thing is that we're only a couple schools away from the ACC being a true east coast version of the Pac-12 (which is my favorite conference from a membership standpoint, FWIW). At 14 we're still a little south heavy, but it's their league so what can you do?
 
The FB schools had a majority till BC, Va Tech, and Miami left. (SU,RU,Pitt,WVU,UConn transitioning up to D-1A football vs. ND, Nova, Gtown, St. John's, Seton Hall, and PC.) That was a 14 team Big East with 8 football schools not including Temple who didn't have voting rights versus 6 basketball only members. Before Miami and co. left they proposed forming an all sports conference and were going to approach Florida State, Louisville, Cincinnati, and any 12th team but from my understanding the football schools didn't want to break away and so Miami left. If the football schools did break away you are talking a stronger league than the current ACC.
Miami
Florida State
Virginia Tech
West Virginia
Louisville
Pittsburgh
Syracuse
Boston College
Rutgers
UConn
Cincinnati
any 12th team East Carolina? Maryland? South Florida?
This is a freaking solid league, but instead the football schools didn't try to split off from the Providence Mafia Doofuses and now the football schools in the Big East are SOL and basically at the mercy of Providence College.
Doesn't answer the question about the lost revenues. As there were 6 BB's, they had a league, and for the others to break away, they would have had to forfeit the NCAA tourney shares, which was big money for SU, UConn and lesser amounts for BC and WVa.

And UConn voted with the BB's in 1995, when ND joined and set the wheels of destruction in motion.
 
The BE leadership has always been from Providence. How the other schools allowed the least relevant school to lead things boggles the mind. They always looked down upon FB and actually went to the ACC asking to take on the BE FB schools for FB only, so they didn't have to deal with it. I am sure at that time the ACC said who are these buffoons leading the BE? Why don't we just pick who we want for all sports and leave behind the scraps. If the BE had real leadership they would have realized Temple's value and then raided the ACC first by taking FSU to get to 10 teams for FB and 15 for BBall. IMO the BE was the better FB conf before the raid but just didn't care. This made Miami unhappy and the rest is history.

Once the raid happened the BE should have gone to 10 FB and 16 BBall instead of 8 FB and 16 BBall (adding DePaul and Marquette were not worth it). That was a big mistake. In hindsight the BE's best options available at the time were TCU, Louisville, Houston, UCF, and USF. IMO UCF has always been a better choice vs USF. BE made a mistake there.

So mistake #1 was not caring about FB and keeping Miami happy. Mistake #2 was not going going to 10/16 and taking TCU who was a good program and added Dallas. And finally mistake #3 was not taking the ESPN contract in hopes of making more money with Vs. Even then I still think the BE would eventually be broken up as the B1G and ACC would still be better options for BE teams. But it would have happened maybe 10-15 years from now.

Let's not forget that the Big East was started as a basketball and minor sports conference. Thus, Providence being the home of the headquarters makes much more sense, especially since Gavitt called the town his home and was the head man.
 
Let's not forget that the Big East was started as a basketball and minor sports conference. Thus, Providence being the home of the headquarters makes much more sense, especially since Gavitt called the town his home and was the head man.

It made sense that it started there. What did not make sense is that it stayed with PC leadership. Once the FB conference was formed it would have made more sense to get a leader from BC, Pitt, or SU. Those three schools cared about both sports and would have been a bridge between the BBall and FB schools.
 
I want to thank you guys for this thread, I've learned a lot of things I didn't know happened.

I can't express how happy I am we are out of that debacle.
 
The Big East made a lot of mistakes through the years. The last one being, when it appeared Pitt and SU were going to leave for the ACC, the BE should've increased the exit fee to one hundred million dollars effective immediately.
 

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