Who is the best coach? | Page 3 | Syracusefan.com

Who is the best coach?

Pitino is a fantastic coach and so is Izzo. I'm interested in how you will answer this question. Do you think what JB has done in Syracuse, NY is less or more impressive than what K has done in Durham?


I think what those 2 guys have done for their schools is immeasurable - everyone that has even glanced at American college sports knows their programs and buildings and tradition.

In a parallel universe Duke could be Davidson and we would be like BU or U of R (no offense to those fine schools) if we ended with with a turnstile full of coaches.
 
I think what those 2 guys have done for their schools is immeasurable - everyone that has even glanced at American college sports knows their programs and buildings and tradition.

In a parallel universe Duke could be Davidson and we would be like BU or U of R (no offense to those fine schools) if we ended with with a turnstile full of coaches.
Continuity in any business or program breeds success. We've been fortunate.
 
Subject #1: I think that since a coach is in charge of a basketball program and Final Fours and national championships are won with talent, how good a recruiter a coach is should be part of the equation. How well he coaches different or lesser talented teams are part of it as well. You can't dismiss any of it.

Subject #2: I don't want this thread hijacked with an argument about our two probations but I suppose it does have a tangential relevance: what would Boeheim's record be if they hadn't happened. For the sake of objectivity, I'm just going to list what I remember about them so they don't get diminished or exaggerated.

The first situation began with the book "Raw Recruits" which was a general study of how college basketball players are recruited. it was an era dominated by "street agents" who inculcated themselves with prospects and the peddled their influence to college recruiters. In one chapter they followed once such character around: Rob Johnson, who at one point, pretended to be an SU assistant. He also bought some sneakers and gear for a recruit and got him tickets for some SU games. It was noted that he was allowed to sit in the small section behind the SU bench. The authors presented this as a typical situation in college basketball but did have a comment something like "With all their success, you know Syracuse must be cheating" or something like that. (I no longer have the book). But their intent was to show what colleges had to do to get talent at that time - it was impossible to avoid these "street agent" types if you wanted to get anybody good. Nowadays they are more likely to recruit through camps, high schools and AAU teams. They could have looked at any of our rivals and found then dealing with street agents, too. When Johnson was named personna non grata at Syracuse he steered SU's Tony Scott to transfer to another school, (I think it was Texas A&M), and was no doubt compensated for doing so.

The Post Standard decided based on this book to investigate the SU basketball program. But they didn't set it up as an expose of college basketball: they set it up as an expose of SU. They covered Rob Johnson and came up with some other things, some of which seemed serious but actually worse and other things that were laughable:
- With Johnson, they established that the player involved, (I think it was Conrad MacRae), had paid him back for the sneakers, gear and tickets.
- Rodney Walker, who had transferred to Maryland over a lack of playing time, claimed he had a female professor who had changed his grade to keep him eligible. Later a check of SU's records showed that he had no female professor.
- One player had been allowed to live with a "booster" family, which was not allowed under NCAA rules. While there, he had gotten the family's daughter pregnant. it was not stated that this was statutory rape but the reader was allowed to think so. The article did not say that the player was himself underage so no crime was involved - that came out alter. They also didn't say that having players live with booster families was not against at the time this happened. When the NCAA made a rule against it, SU had stopped doing it.
- George Hicker, one of Boeheim's old teammates, had become a successful businessman in California. The paper said that he'd given a job to LeRoy Ellis, the father of LeRon Ellis, who had transferred to SU from Kentucky when their program went on probation. They cited an NCAA rule against hiring relatives in exchange for players attending schools. Hicker called the paper to try to explain that he had not hired the senior Ellis: he had contracted a security firm he worked for to provide security for a couple of building she owned. Ellis had worked for that firm for 9 years and was not assigned to either of Hicker's buildings. They never reutrned his calls so he took out an advertisement to explain the situation.
- Billy Owens, when he was the #1 recruit in the country, decided on a visit to Syracuse that he wanted to come here. In celebration he picked up a basketball and dunked it. The paper cited this as a possible violation of an NCAA rule against 'try-outs' on campus.
- A mental patient from Hutchings showed up at practice, demanding to go one on one with Stevie Thompson. to get rid of him and have some fun, JB let him try his skills vs. Stevie, who tea-bagged him. The paper also suggested this violated the try-out rule.

Aside from the absurdities and the was Hicker was treated, I didn't like the fact that the paper was specially going after SU, rather than taking the path of the Raw Recruit authors to use SU as an example of what was going on in college basketball. They listed excerpts form the rule book on the side and then told the stories next to it, suggesting that the stories could be interpreted as a violation of the rules. It was "pin the rule on the donkey".

I never saw the particulars of the NCAA decision but I heard that in two year, the investigation couldn't really find anything serious but they had to somehow justify the time they'd spent on it and so they found SU guilty of "a lack of institutional control".

Then there was the most recent situation, which involved:
- A drug use policy which the NCAA does not have but insists be given the most extreme interpretation lest athletes be given any "extra benefit" from their failure to be punished. The school didn't think a suspension or informing the parents just because a few players had tried marijuana.
- A YMCA employee failed to inform the school that players doing internships didn't perform all their required duties, did other things for charity events and got paid for it and received some free rides.
- And, then came the Fab Melo situation, where someone in the athletic department decided to help out a player by re-writing one of his papers. This, to me is by far the most serious thing uncovered by either investigation.

People can add or subtract to that litany and make up their own minds about it.

I think there are some mistakes there but it doesn't seem nearly as bad as the things we hear about at other schools. I think the first probation put a damper on our recruiting for a decade afterwards. we not only lost recruits, (Donyell Marshall? Jalen Rose?) because of it but we had to walk on eggshells because a second probation would have been much worse. If Raw Recruits had chosen to focus on a different street agent or if the Post Standard had decided to see what it takes to run a major college basketball program rather than to tear it down, it might never have happened. I think it's reasonable to suggest that Jim Boeheim's record, as great as it is, could have been much better if he'd been able continue to recruit the type of players were were getting in the late 80's.
 
This is a tough question. I immediately thought of good basketball coaches without regard for recruiting. Just guys (and gals) who are good at teaching, implementing a system/style, and managing a game. But when you add the recruiting element, it makes the question so much more complex. It reminds me of the mvp/best player debate.

That being said, wouldn't applying the recruiting element hurt the case for supr-recruiters like coach k and coach cal in years when they woefully underacheive? I mean, most teams would love to have just one of their five star bench guys.
 
Right now...Jay Wright is the best coach. What he does with the talent he gets and the school he is at is amazing. Put him at a school like Duke or Kentucky, heck even Syracuse and he would be unstoppable. I think he is best coach in college basketball right now, not based on past results or past years. If I'm making a team he is the first coach I am calling.
 
Subject #1: I think that since a coach is in charge of a basketball program and Final Fours and national championships are won with talent, how good a recruiter a coach is should be part of the equation. How well he coaches different or lesser talented teams are part of it as well. You can't dismiss any of it.

Subject #2: I don't want this thread hijacked with an argument about our two probations but I suppose it does have a tangential relevance: what would Boeheim's record be if they hadn't happened. For the sake of objectivity, I'm just going to list what I remember about them so they don't get diminished or exaggerated.

The first situation began with the book "Raw Recruits" which was a general study of how college basketball players are recruited. it was an era dominated by "street agents" who inculcated themselves with prospects and the peddled their influence to college recruiters. In one chapter they followed once such character around: Rob Johnson, who at one point, pretended to be an SU assistant. He also bought some sneakers and gear for a recruit and got him tickets for some SU games. It was noted that he was allowed to sit in the small section behind the SU bench. The authors presented this as a typical situation in college basketball but did have a comment something like "With all their success, you know Syracuse must be cheating" or something like that. (I no longer have the book). But their intent was to show what colleges had to do to get talent at that time - it was impossible to avoid these "street agent" types if you wanted to get anybody good. Nowadays they are more likely to recruit through camps, high schools and AAU teams. They could have looked at any of our rivals and found then dealing with street agents, too. When Johnson was named personna non grata at Syracuse he steered SU's Tony Scott to transfer to another school, (I think it was Texas A&M), and was no doubt compensated for doing so.

The Post Standard decided based on this book to investigate the SU basketball program. But they didn't set it up as an expose of college basketball: they set it up as an expose of SU. They covered Rob Johnson and came up with some other things, some of which seemed serious but actually worse and other things that were laughable:
- With Johnson, they established that the player involved, (I think it was Conrad MacRae), had paid him back for the sneakers, gear and tickets.
- Rodney Walker, who had transferred to Maryland over a lack of playing time, claimed he had a female professor who had changed his grade to keep him eligible. Later a check of SU's records showed that he had no female professor.
- One player had been allowed to live with a "booster" family, which was not allowed under NCAA rules. While there, he had gotten the family's daughter pregnant. it was not stated that this was statutory rape but the reader was allowed to think so. The article did not say that the player was himself underage so no crime was involved - that came out alter. They also didn't say that having players live with booster families was not against at the time this happened. When the NCAA made a rule against it, SU had stopped doing it.
- George Hicker, one of Boeheim's old teammates, had become a successful businessman in California. The paper said that he'd given a job to LeRoy Ellis, the father of LeRon Ellis, who had transferred to SU from Kentucky when their program went on probation. They cited an NCAA rule against hiring relatives in exchange for players attending schools. Hicker called the paper to try to explain that he had not hired the senior Ellis: he had contracted a security firm he worked for to provide security for a couple of building she owned. Ellis had worked for that firm for 9 years and was not assigned to either of Hicker's buildings. They never reutrned his calls so he took out an advertisement to explain the situation.
- Billy Owens, when he was the #1 recruit in the country, decided on a visit to Syracuse that he wanted to come here. In celebration he picked up a basketball and dunked it. The paper cited this as a possible violation of an NCAA rule against 'try-outs' on campus.
- A mental patient from Hutchings showed up at practice, demanding to go one on one with Stevie Thompson. to get rid of him and have some fun, JB let him try his skills vs. Stevie, who tea-bagged him. The paper also suggested this violated the try-out rule.

Aside from the absurdities and the was Hicker was treated, I didn't like the fact that the paper was specially going after SU, rather than taking the path of the Raw Recruit authors to use SU as an example of what was going on in college basketball. They listed excerpts form the rule book on the side and then told the stories next to it, suggesting that the stories could be interpreted as a violation of the rules. It was "pin the rule on the donkey".

I never saw the particulars of the NCAA decision but I heard that in two year, the investigation couldn't really find anything serious but they had to somehow justify the time they'd spent on it and so they found SU guilty of "a lack of institutional control".

Then there was the most recent situation, which involved:
- A drug use policy which the NCAA does not have but insists be given the most extreme interpretation lest athletes be given any "extra benefit" from their failure to be punished. The school didn't think a suspension or informing the parents just because a few players had tried marijuana.
- A YMCA employee failed to inform the school that players doing internships didn't perform all their required duties, did other things for charity events and got paid for it and received some free rides.
- And, then came the Fab Melo situation, where someone in the athletic department decided to help out a player by re-writing one of his papers. This, to me is by far the most serious thing uncovered by either investigation.

People can add or subtract to that litany and make up their own minds about it.

I think there are some mistakes there but it doesn't seem nearly as bad as the things we hear about at other schools. I think the first probation put a damper on our recruiting for a decade afterwards. we not only lost recruits, (Donyell Marshall? Jalen Rose?) because of it but we had to walk on eggshells because a second probation would have been much worse. If Raw Recruits had chosen to focus on a different street agent or if the Post Standard had decided to see what it takes to run a major college basketball program rather than to tear it down, it might never have happened. I think it's reasonable to suggest that Jim Boeheim's record, as great as it is, could have been much better if he'd been able continue to recruit the type of players were were getting in the late 80's.
Exceptional post. Thank you.
 
Because we had a media class in Syracuse in those days interesting in making a story. So in hushed tones ballplayers got free pasta.

Just free pasta? Free room and board at a boosters house, multiple vehicle leases, car repairs, free food and drinks at multiple places.

The program had zero control over these players in the 80s and 90s and were lucky to have only a couple of years of probation between the fights, rapes, breakins and woman beating.
 
K built the institutional advantage for Duke. End of the day it's a small stone campus in the woods behind a town that's a hole, with not a lot of attractive co-eds, while down the street at UNC is basically a college shangri-la. He built a place where kids want to play.

X and Os JB is is as good as they get, no matter what our talent level we are always in the mix. His teams have flubbed some end of games buy over 40 years that will happen.

Dont get this. JB , with all of the allure of the dome for recruiting, when ghe dome was deemed as sexy, has won 1 natty. And that was JB jumping in melos back. He runs a stagnant offense, his calling card was the zone with long players. He is a defensive pioneer, yes. That's it.
 
Bill self and cal are better than pitino. Pitino is waaay filthier than Cal. RP just dresses better and thus is seen in a better light than Cal. Its all BS. What Cal does with a bunch of blue chips, having them buy in, sacrifice minutes and thus stats, is amazing. Billy Self has won 13 straight B12 titles and thats a very good league.
 
Urban went 22-2 at Utah, and Self went to the Sweet 16 and won a share of the Big Ten in two out of his three seasons at Illinois.
And gift wrapped a FF team in 2005 for Weber.
 
Ehh, Duke is a beautiful campus and a top school. Plus it's close enough to other cities that being in Durham isn't that big of an issue.

But there are a laundry list of beautiful campuses and top schools that didn't develop themselves into the premier brand in college basketball.
 
Apples to Oranges. In basketball two or three of the best players in the nation are able to win you championships. Not true in football. What makes Saban remarkable is he wins with average QB's. The best he's ever had was probably McCarron who's ceiling is probably long term NFL backup.

I'm not disagreeing that K is one of the greatest of all time. I just don't think he is the best or even the best right now. He is top 3. By your logic, Calipari is without a doubt going to end up the best coach of all time. He gets the best players every year and will certainly win some more titles.

This post just doesn't make sense, my friend. The Saban comparison is absolutely apples to apples. Alabama gets the best recruiting classes year after year, and they win year after year. Saban is the reason that program is on autopilot right now, same with K.

Calipari has 1 title and 6 Final Fours (4 if you take away the two that were vacated) -- he has a long way to go to touch K's accomplishments.
 
No question K and Pitino are terrific head coaches and will go down as two of the best ever.

But to narrow it down to only two guys is a slap to the face of some excellent coaches out there today.

Even if K and Pitino were the two best coaches today (extremely debatable, as great as they are) the gap between the 2nd-best 3rd-best is so minuscule that narrowing a discussion down to the top 2 is pretty ridiculous.
 
Just free pasta? Free room and board at a boosters house, multiple vehicle leases, car repairs, free food and drinks at multiple places.

The program had zero control over these players in the 80s and 90s and were lucky to have only a couple of years of probation between the fights, rapes, breakins and woman beating.

The 2 guys who wrote it were invited to one of my poly sci classes. They wrote it get recognized to get the next big newspaper job, and part of it was going after the big fish businessmen in a relatively small town - Rapp and Grimaldi. Nothing happened at SU that didn't happen most anywhere else, except our hoop players actually beat up our football players. (and I know the fighting stuff was rampant).
 
I hate Duke as much as the next guy but K has 12 final fours and 5 national titles. Of course he's the best coach. Especially if you consider coaching to be all aspects of program management.

There's nothing preordained about winning like he has at Duke. It's a small private school in North Carolina. K has built the biggest brand in college hoops. It's remarkable.

This, everyone else is fighting for 2nd place.
 
Dont get this. JB , with all of the allure of the dome for recruiting, when ghe dome was deemed as s e xy, has won 1 natty. And that was JB jumping in melos back. He runs a stagnant offense, his calling card was the zone with long players. He is a defensive pioneer, yes. That's it.


So you're saying you'd wish he never coached at Syracuse?
 
Are they witch hunts when they actually find things? The first investigation brought up a lot of bad things.
$50.00 Christmas cards and a dinner were the big things that's recall, and SU was doing nothing other schools weren't doing.
 
Best coach or best recruiter? Give me Pitino to win one game against anyone. If he didn't leave for the NBA multiple times he would have more titles.

This. He isn't getting Duke type talent every year either. His players really develop too. Anybody have Don Pitino vs K head to head? Or even just since he has been at UL?
 
ESPN Sportswriters are debating whether Mike Krzyzewski or Rick Pitino is the best coach in college basketball. (Sigh...)

The argument for Pitino is that he's had success at several places. The argument for Coach K is that he's coached several different kinds of teams. And of course he hs more wins and championships. He was also credited with "adjusting to the one and done era".

William Rhoden said that if he had to have a coach fro an under-talented team he'd choose Coach K. if he had to have a coach for a really talented team he'd choose Pitino. (I'd choose the opposite.) He also said that if both suddenly have to coach somewhere else, he'd pick Coach to be a success sooner. (Again, I'd pick the opposite.)

Who would you pick as the best coach in college basketball?
Lots of great coaches. It's K on the numbers, but I would take our guy anytime and live with the results.
 
$50.00 Christmas cards and a dinner were the big things that's recall, and SU was doing nothing other schools weren't doing.

Your memory must be foggy. The program was out of control. Dig in a little and check it out.
 
So you're saying you'd wish he never coached at Syracuse?

No, he did a nice job but imagine a Coach with personality and more offensive savy with the dome and conference affiliation as recruiting leverage? He has under recruited the last 10-15 yrs. Some kids dont want to jump up and down in one place with their hands in the air on defense.
 
$50.00 Christmas cards and a dinner were the big things that's recall, and SU was doing nothing other schools weren't doing.


I forgot about those Bill Rapp Christmas presents. Basically if it isn't a reason for a guy to go to SU rather than elsewhere and it doesn't involve faking academics or ignoring rules, it's small potatoes.
 
Ehh, Duke is a beautiful campus and a top school. Plus it's close enough to other cities that being in Durham isn't that big of an issue.

Right, this is why Boston College is a perennial powerhouse.
 

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