Who still hates the Zone?

[Fly Rodder]

I felt like Plumlee was sitting underneath the basket (in the paint) for minutes at a time last night. That's why he got those dunks.

Coleman should have gotten more run.

That and taking four steps without dribbling before dunking.

 

[Zelda Zonk]

I still hate the zone.
We beat a #20 and sinking team without a key player*. It was still a phenomenal win, because it's a phenomenal win anytime we beat duke, but... A little perspective isn't out of order.

Secondly, 'holding' them to 60-something points isn't the same as if a m2m team had done the same thing. Zone naturally suppresses scores, whether we are doing it well or not.

Because of the duke 'brand' and the acclaim of their recruiting classes, I was shocked to see very little talent out there. We didn't give Allen a lot. Their star freshman played like a freshman. And K coached a lousy game, not bothering to do the things everyone knows you need to do against a zone.

A gratifying win, for sure. But every win (or loss) isn't a justification for any one decision. If it were, the Bad Losses we have would more than cancel out the three wins over the bottom third of the Top 25.


*I can't watch Duke games, aside from when we play them, so fill me in: when Jefferson plays, is plumlee his backup, or do they often play together? I thought it was inaccurate for the announcers to harp on him not being there, when plumlee had the kind of game he had. Maybe lost a bit of jefferson's defense, but plumlee compensated offensively. But k would have had sub and versatility options, so, it would just have been a 'different' game, not necessarily a better one for duke.

 

[Fly Rodder]

It's TIRESOME. Howzabout enjoy the win against Duke for 5 minutes before diving back into the normal pattern of incessent griping.

Your unamed anti-zonies didn't start this thread.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

I still hate the zone.
We beat a #20 and sinking team without a key player. It was still a phenomenal win, because it's a phenomenal win anytime we beat duke, but... A little perspective isn't out of order.

. And K coached a lousy game, not bothering to do the things everyone knows you need to do against a zone.

.

Speaking of perspective, it would have been a very different game with Jefferson available. As I said last night, K would have put him on the foul line and he would have tried to duplicate what UNC did to us recently. Not saying they have the same pieces, but that tall skinny kid would have more than a couple dunks coming off the wing. Tough to adjust when you don't have the bodies capable of doing something.

 

[realorange]

so we might play better defense than notre Dame which isn't saying much of anything. ND historically is a weak defensive team.

Everything is about PPG with the zonies, isn't it? Are you forgetting the part where games grind to a halt because teams slow waaay down in their halfcourt sets? Slower tempo, fewer possessions, fewer points to go around.

Now that being said our defensive efficiency is climbing. That's trending in the right direction, especially because of the rebounding.

And the only way we win games is by shooting well. We cannot run and gun with the team we have. Slowing down the game gives us an advantage on ball possessions if we hit 1 or 2 more shots than the opponent.

So, the zone does it's job in many different ways.

And check out what JB had to say about our defense in his presser.

 

[Marsh01]

Speaking of perspective, it would have been a very different game with Jefferson available. As I said last night, K would have put him on the foul line and he would have tried to duplicate what UNC did to us recently. Not saying they have the same pieces, but that tall skinny kid would have more than a couple dunks coming off the wing. Tough to adjust when you don't have the bodies capable of doing something.

We dodged a major bullet with him out. He killed us when we beat them in the Dome

 

[SoBeCuse]

I still hate the zone.
We beat a #20 and sinking team without a key player. It was still a phenomenal win, because it's a phenomenal win anytime we beat duke, but... A little perspective isn't out of order.

Secondly, 'holding' them to 60-something points isn't the same as if a m2m team had done the same thing. Zone naturally suppresses scores, whether we are doing it well or not.

Because of the duke 'brand' and the acclaim of their recruiting classes, I was shocked to see very little talent out there. We didn't give Allen a lot. Their star freshman played like a freshman. And K coached a lousy game, not bothering to do the things everyone knows you need to do against a zone.

A gratifying win, for sure. But every win (or loss) isn't a justification for any one decision. If it were, the Bad Losses we have would more than cancel out the three wins over the bottom third of the Top 25.

Yes, I tend to agree with this. Before I am labeled as a debbie downer; I loved this win. Anytime you can get a win in that place is HUGE. Malachi and Lydon weren't bothered by the atmosphere at all.

Missing Jefferson is huge for them. I have a feeling he would've neutralized Roberson quite a bit. Ingram is SO skinny and more of a perimeter player. We let him shoot those threes and he made some. Plumlee isn't very good but he is a big strong kid and we know we have interior defending problems so...

I just loved the hustle and sense of urgency. G has become very good driving to his left. JB was on point last night and, yes, I still don't like the zone. LGO!

 

[FrancoPizza]

That game was hardly played at a slow tempo, particularly in the second half. SU put up 71 shots and Duke 62 for the game, an incredibly high total these days.

I find it hilarious that you're using # shots as an indicator of tempo. Thanks to Roberson we were playing HORSE out there on many possessions. That doesn't mean we're playing fast.

 

[SoBeCuse]

I find it hilarious that you're using # shots as an indicator of tempo. Thanks to Roberson we were playing HORSE out there on many possessions. That doesn't mean we're playing fast.

Correct. We don't play fast.

 

[HOFCeluck]

I still hate the zone.
We beat a #20 and sinking team without a key player*. It was still a phenomenal win, because it's a phenomenal win anytime we beat duke, but... A little perspective isn't out of order.

Secondly, 'holding' them to 60-something points isn't the same as if a m2m team had done the same thing. Zone naturally suppresses scores, whether we are doing it well or not.

Because of the duke 'brand' and the acclaim of their recruiting classes, I was shocked to see very little talent out there. We didn't give Allen a lot. Their star freshman played like a freshman. And K coached a lousy game, not bothering to do the things everyone knows you need to do against a zone.

A gratifying win, for sure. But every win (or loss) isn't a justification for any one decision. If it were, the Bad Losses we have would more than cancel out the three wins over the bottom third of the Top 25.


*I can't watch Duke games, aside from when we play them, so fill me in: when Jefferson plays, is plumlee his backup, or do they often play together? I thought it was inaccurate for the announcers to harp on him not being there, when plumlee had the kind of game he had. Maybe lost a bit of jefferson's defense, but plumlee compensated offensively. But k would have had sub and versatility options, so, it would just have been a 'different' game, not necessarily a better one for duke.

OK you win RF.

 

[Zelda Zonk]

I find it hilarious that you're using # shots as an indicator of tempo. Thanks to Roberson we were playing HORSE out there on many possessions. That doesn't mean we're playing fast.

"You can use 'statistics' to 'prove' anything." Speciously.

 

[Cusefan0307]

I find it hilarious that you're using # shots as an indicator of tempo. Thanks to Roberson we were playing HORSE out there on many possessions. That doesn't mean we're playing fast.

Dude, just give it up. Duke's offensive rating Saturday was 124.7. Last night it was 103.3. We get it. You hate the zone.

 

[FrancoPizza]

Correct. We don't play fast.

#OrangeIsTheNewSlow

 

[br801]

I find it hilarious that you're using # shots as an indicator of tempo. Thanks to Roberson we were playing HORSE out there on many possessions. That doesn't mean we're playing fast.

While SU currently does not play uptempo offensively by design, and the zone inherently slows the tempo by forcing opponents to probe for shots, I'm pretty sure shot frequency is a key factor in any quantitative measure of tempo.

 

[FrancoPizza]

Dude, just give it up. Duke's offensive rating Saturday was 124.7. Last night it was 103.3. We get it. You hate the zone.

Wrong again, laddie. There's only person I know who hates the zone unconditionally, and it's not me. The only pure agenda I see are zonies who take personal affront to the idea that we need a secondary defense to help us win in certain situations. We didn't need a secondary defense last night... but on other nights it can be a different story. Ok I'll go to confession now and apologize to God for having such sinful thoughts.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Wrong again, laddie. There's only person I know who hates the zone unconditionally, and it's not me. The only pure agenda I see are zonies who take personal affront to the idea that we need a secondary defense to help us win in certain situations. We didn't need a secondary defense last night... but on other nights it can be a different story. Ok I'll go to confession now and apologize to God for having such sinful thoughts.

Whatever, I'll agree to disagree. I myself even said on the second or third post in this thread that I would be fine with mixing defenses at time.

That's the first I've ever heard you say this year the zone was acceptable so I'm done. Great win, we can agree on that.

 

[FrancoPizza]

While SU currently does not play uptempo offensively by design, and the zone inherently slows the tempo by forcing opponents to probe for shots, I'm pretty sure shot frequency is a key factor in any quantitative measure of tempo.

I'm not 100% certain, but I believe the key KenPom measure of tempo is # possessions per game... which makes sense. # shots has no bearing no that.

 

[Zelda Zonk]

OK you win RF.

Oh, snap!
Wait — what? Who's RF?

 

[FrancoPizza]

Oh, snap!
Wait — what? Who's RF?

I believe that is Radio Frequency 2o44 GHz.

 

[HRE Otto IV]

Welcome to the board.

Didn't hurt us Saturday when we scored 83.

In general the last 6 seasons in conference SU has played in a lot of low scoring games. I would venture that of the power conference teams the average total points scored and allowed per game, SU is near the bottom. Part of that is the style of today's college game. However part of that is also the Zone. Plus JB has become a defensive coach first. In the past he brought in talent and tried to fit it to the Zone. Now he recruits to the Zone, which makes our D better but hurts our O.

We play boring basketball. The last 6 seasons we have failed to score 75 points per game. We have had one Top 50 finish nationally in PPG (39th), and only 3 Top 100 (58th, 80th). So half of the seasons we have failed to be Top 100 nationally in scoring. And it isn't like we haven't had good teams those six year. We have made a Final Four, been a 1 seed, and a 3 seed twice. In terms of Ws and Ls we have had success. I love the Zone in the NCAAs as it is a weapon, but it has become a bore to watch the regular seasons games.

 

[FrancoPizza]

In general the last 6 seasons in conference SU has played in a lot of low scoring games. I would venture that of the power conference teams the average total points scored and allowed per game, SU is near the bottom. Part of that is the style of today's college game. However part of that is also the Zone. Plus JB has become a defensive coach first. In the past he brought in talent and tried to fit it to the Zone. Now he recruits to the Zone, which makes our D better but hurts our O.

We play boring basketball. The last 6 seasons we have failed to score 75 points per game. We have had one Top 50 finish nationally in PPG (39th), and only 3 Top 100 (58th, 80th). So half of the seasons we have failed to be Top 100 nationally in scoring. And it isn't like we haven't had good teams those six year. We have made a Final Four, been a 1 seed, and a 3 seed twice. In terms of Ws and Ls we have had success. I love the Zone in the NCAAs as it is a weapon, but it has become a bore to watch the regular seasons games.

It is boring to watch, relative to what we were accustomed to for the better part of 3 decades. Doesn't mean that we're any less of a fan for stating that opinion either. In fact it shows how dedicated many of us are that we look past this transformation from a sleek, athletic chick who loves to party to a fat, frugal housewife who never wants to go out anymore.

 

[two3zone]

I don't think anybody hates the zone but the stubbornness of adjusting when the zone isn't working or changing it up based situations is weird.

 

[RF2044]

Your unamed anti-zonies didn't start this thread.

"Zonies." So stupid.

 

[Fly Rodder]

It's funny. I checked out a game thread on a Duke site and they were questioning why Coach K didn't shift to a zone when G was driving at will!

 

[MikeSU02]

I don't *really* care if we play a triangle and two, a box and one, the 2-3 zone, the 3-2 zone man to man or did 60 minutes of he!!.

I just want wins.

Here is my ongoing issue with the zone - I think we would have a better standing on very elite recruits if we played man to man as it pertains to appealing to NBA play.

I also have a hard time dealing with the idea that these kids probably have played man most of their lives and now come in, maybe only are here for a year or so, and have to learn a very specific new defense.

Now, is that too much to ask? No, not at all. And if we win, then great. JB's won lots of game with the zone, can't argue that.

So how I reconcile it in my mind is that I wish we had a secondary defense besides our press to switch from, I don't think that will happen while JB is here and I'll see what happens with Hop.

Would I prefer man to man? Yes. I think it would make us more appealing to certain recruits and help our guys in the NBA.

C'est la vie. I also wish we would make our FTs this year. Stuff happens. Keep winning and I'll deal with it.