Who wins?

[jordoo]

I am the one being reasonable, I think it's more unreasonable to say that Dion never passes the ball to defend the other team that has Melo on it is a little crazy.

If I were Melo I probably would pass the ball either.

You give no credence to the difference in position when it comes to assist numbers. Forwards and Bigs even who handle a lot are going to have lower assist numbers than guards in general just because of the way offense is structured and the fact that good offensive big guys are the ones that you generally prefer shooting the ball when they get it in their spots. You are often unreasonable in the way you structure your posts and declare things as absolutes rather than being willing to have a healthy disagreement/discussion. Both guys liked to shoot and both were capable passers at their positions that likely could have passed more in their time at SU IMO. I would say this though, on those two squads I'd bet that Melo and Dion where the lowest assist guys per 40 minutes for their positions (forward/guard) but that Dion is further away from the mean at his position than Melo is.

 

[two3zone]

Ok fair enough, point well taken, will take your word on those stats, but remember, this is a one game winner takes all, not a 38 game season. And in winner take all, Melo has the ring

So does Craig Forth.

 

[two3zone]

You give no credence to the difference in position when it comes to assist numbers. Forwards and Bigs even who handle a lot are going to have lower assist numbers than guards in general just because of the way offense is structured and the fact that good offensive big guys are the ones that you generally prefer shooting the ball when they get it in their spots. You are often unreasonable in the way you structure your posts and declare things as absolutes rather than being willing to have a healthy disagreement/discussion. Both guys liked to shoot and both were capable passers at their positions that likely could have passed more in their time at SU IMO. I would say this though, on those two squads I'd bet that Melo and Dion where the lowest assist guys per 40 minutes for their positions (forward/guard) but that Dion is further away from the mean at his position than Melo is.

Me defending Dion with passing doesn't mean I think he is a good passer or passed it enough. I'm on your side when it comes to that. Just didn't think it was fair one guy getting chastised for something somebody else does equally.

 

[Full_Rebar]

Think about Dion, Wes, and MCW in transition.

Wow

Hard to get out in transition when you're taking the ball out of the nets

 

[jordoo]

3 pt percentages

Gmac .354
Rautins .374
Melo .337
Fair .343


MCW .307
Dion .348
Wes .415

While team one can spread the floor very well team two is very capable of defending the three while I don't feel the same about team one. I think if team two is up against team ones defense their percentages could go up and team ones could go down against team two.

If you put Rak at the 4 instead of the 5 and Rj at the 5 you have MCW, Dion, Wes, and Rak guarding that line. All of them are well above average with quickness and team one doesn't even have a point guard and guys who I would call average at best passers. Team two also has two bigs who can pass the ball out of double teams.

Yep neither team is going to consistently stop the other that's for sure. But to stop team 1 from shooting 3's you leave the best FG% shooter in school history 1on1 to collect easy ones and fouls. I think you are probably on to something having Rak play the wing on D and Rick play the middle, I pictured it the other way around but I think it would work better your way. Still team 2 has a player in MCW that you can leave and dare to beat you from deep while you help on Christmas and they have two guys in Christmas and Jackson that did most of their work close to the hoop as far as scoring while team 1 had forwards that are generally much more deployable in offensive sets.

 

[Jack Hall]

Me defending Dion with passing doesn't mean I think he is a good passer or passed it enough. I'm on your side when it comes to that. Just didn't think it was fair one guy getting chastised for something somebody else does equally.

Except in that title game, winner takes all. Melo had 7 assists, when it really counted. Its all what you focus on

 

[jordoo]

Me defending Dion with passing doesn't mean I think he is a good passer or passed it enough. I'm on your side when it comes to that. Just didn't think it was fair one guy getting chastised for something somebody else does equally.

This I agree with and I must not have interpreted your original post clearly.

 

[two3zone]

You are being reasonable, you make very good points. You are also a contrarian thinker as the only one to pick team 2 so far and nothing wrong w contrarian thinkers! Takes guts Altho i do agree w Jordoo, its more of a guards job to distribute the ball than a forward, but thats just me

I made the third post in the thread, wasn't trying to be different nor controversial. I think while team one is an amazing squad there almost one dimensional. ISO players and three point shooting. They have those two advantages over team two and I don't think the 3 point shooting is as big advantage as it looks just by looking at the names.

I just think team twos defense is incredibly strong, better post presence, amazing offense in transition. I think team one could be in trouble if they don't hit 40% of their threes.

 

[jordoo]

Hard to get out in transition when you're taking the ball out of the nets

Both teams would have that issue though. You aren't stopping those squads too regularly.

 

[Full_Rebar]

Both teams would have that issue though. You aren't stopping those squads too regularly.

I agree, which is why I'd lean towards the better balanced offensive team.

 

[jordoo]

I made the third post in the thread, wasn't trying to be different nor controversial. I think while team one is an amazing squad there almost one dimensional. ISO players and three point shooting. They have those two advantages over team two and I don't think the 3 point shooting is as big advantage as it looks just by looking at the names.

I just think team twos defense is incredibly strong, better post presence, amazing offense in transition. I think team one could be in trouble if they don't hit 40% of their threes.

I'm not sure I agree with the characterization of team 1 being one dimensional or only ISO players. I do think they have more guys who are catch and shoot or catch and make their move type of players. That said Andy and Gerry were 4.9 and 5.9 assists per as seniors and both where probably better than given credit for at using the shot fake to get past guys. I actually think that because of the structure of team one that you would also see much better shooting numbers from distance for all of those guys because they would likely be getting prime shots when they took them as you simply could not leave any of the players on team 1 alone.

 

[sufandu]

3 pt percentages

Gmac .354
Rautins .374
Melo .337
Fair .343


MCW .307
Dion .348
Wes .415

While team one can spread the floor very well team two is very capable of defending the three while I don't feel the same about team one. I think if team two is up against team ones defense their percentages could go up and team ones could go down against team two.

If you put Rak at the 4 instead of the 5 and Rj at the 5 you have MCW, Dion, Wes, and Rak guarding that line. All of them are well above average with quickness and team one doesn't even have a point guard and guys who I would call average at best passers. Team two also has two bigs who can pass the ball out of double teams.

Are those career percentages or their best year?

 

[JOC44]

I think these two teams are well matched up. I went with Team 1 because it has the best player on the court.

 

[two3zone]

I'm not sure I agree with the characterization of team 1 being one dimensional or only ISO players. I do think they have more guys who are catch and shoot or catch and make their move type of players. That said Andy and Gerry were 4.9 and 5.9 assists per as seniors and both where probably better than given credit for at using the shot fake to get past guys. I actually think that because of the structure of team one that you would also see much better shooting numbers from distance for all of those guys because they would likely be getting prime shots when they took them as you simply could not leave any of the players on team 1 alone.

You're right, you couldn't leave one guy open on the outside on team one, but team one also doesn't have a guy who can drive and penetrate that well, even worse with the defense team two is throwing out there.

To be honest, if these two teams played 10 times I wouldn't be shocked at a 5-5 split every ten game stretch, but because I have to pick one I would just prefer team two because of the defense and what they can bring to the table offensively which I don't think is far off of team one.

 

[two3zone]

Are those career percentages or their best year?

Career. Figured I'd make it fair.

 

[sufandu]

You're right, you couldn't leave one guy open on the outside on team one, but team one also doesn't have a guy who can drive and penetrate that well, even worse with the defense team two is throwing out there.

To be honest, if these two teams played 10 times I wouldn't be shocked at a 5-5 split every ten game stretch, but because I have to pick one I would just prefer team two because of the defense and what they can bring to the table offensively which I don't think is far off of team one.

I don't know that I agree that team 1 doesn't have a guy that can drive. Melo had no trouble handling the ball and driving to the hoop and was better at finishing than anyone else on the floor. I think GMac is actually underrated at driving. He didn't finish all that often but he was solid at driving and dishing.

 

[br801]

You are often unreasonable in the way you structure your posts and declare things as absolutes rather than being willing to have a healthy disagreement/discussion.

That statement accurately describes the M.O. of quite a few posters on this board, IMO.

 

[sufandu]

Career. Figured I'd make it fair.

I wonder what each player's best year was (maybe I'll look it up). Wes's would drop to .349 if you include his years at Iowa State. Obviously his was better as a redshirt junior at Syracuse than he was as a freshman at Iowa St. The other players shouldn't be held back by the fact that they developed their game while at SU.

 

[sufandu]

I'm not sure I agree with the characterization of team 1 being one dimensional or only ISO players. I do think they have more guys who are catch and shoot or catch and make their move type of players. That said Andy and Gerry were 4.9 and 5.9 assists per as seniors and both where probably better than given credit for at using the shot fake to get past guys. I actually think that because of the structure of team one that you would also see much better shooting numbers from distance for all of those guys because they would likely be getting prime shots when they took them as you simply could not leave any of the players on team 1 alone.

I feel like team 1 would be better at moving the ball and getting guys their shots in comfortable positions than team 2. Andy was a big part of that team chemistry the 2010 team had.

 

[jordoo]

You're right, you couldn't leave one guy open on the outside on team one, but team one also doesn't have a guy who can drive and penetrate that well, even worse with the defense team two is throwing out there.

To be honest, if these two teams played 10 times I wouldn't be shocked at a 5-5 split every ten game stretch, but because I have to pick one I would just prefer team two because of the defense and what they can bring to the table offensively which I don't think is far off of team one.

Team 1 had 4 guys who could drive and make things happen. Andy and Gerry are just going to be able to get by you because you fear the shot. Melo could get by any forward and CJ playing as a 4 is going to beat Rick or Rak off the bounce most times. I do agree that team 2 has 2 premier penetrators which is a clear advantage over team one but team one would have no issues getting into the paint the way they can spread the floor and Melo for his position was a premier penetrator IMO. I would take team 2 defensively for sure over team 1 but great offense usually trumps great defense which is another reason I lean toward team one.

Preferably I'd combine the teams and go with this:

MCW
Andy
Melo
Wes
Rakeem

This team spreads the floor great with the 2,3,4 positions and lets MCW do what he does best plus Rakeem is more maneuverable in that kind of offense than AO or Ricky. Also you are better than either team defensively out top and on the front line IMO.

 

[jordoo]

That statement accurately describes the M.O. of quite a few posters on this board, IMO.

LOL, myself included at times.

 

[CusefanATL]

Slow day at work for me. Was mixing and matching some rosters from past teams.

Team 1:
GMac
Rautins
Carmelo
Fair
AO


Team 2:
MCW
Dion
Wes
Rick Jackson
Christmas

neither team has much of a bench.

 

[NineOneSeven]

neither team has much of a bench.

Bench team 1: mike jones
Bench team 2: dayshawn wright

 

[orangefan13]

tough choice.

team 2 lacks someone to pass to for a short jumper while team one lacks a true point guard.
I think Dion and MCW could give rautins and gmac a slightly tough time up top, but not so much the other way. They are more athletic.
Team 2 also has a slight bulk advantage in the low post imo, and better freethrows, arinze is going to miss his.

I would say team two, but if they did lose it would be two reasons
1.dion and mcw would have to kick it out to wes for three instead of a midrange jump shot And
2.nobody could slow down melo (rak would be the best shot imo).

 

[MikeSU02]

Team 1. Not only would Melo be a gigantic mismatch, but GMac and Andy would be shooting wide open three pointers.

Carmelo >>>>> Anyone on team 2.