Why and how to retain HCSS

[djorange1989]

You need to go back and re-read the thread. You can't use 2013 years stats to prove that they didn't over achieve in 2013. You'd have to rely on what we had coming back from the 2012 team to prove that.

And by any measure we lost all that made the team successful in 2012 on offense save Smith and Pugh (who was also out for the first half of the year).

thank you, that was exactly my point saying the 2013 team was a 3 win team. That was how things looked going into the season, based on everything you mention. Hunt is a great kid, but for goodness sakes he was a Tight End(sorta) playing QB. The 2013 team overachieved and they were able to do what this current team has to learn to do: win close games. We lost a couple in 2013 (PSU, Pitt) but we won several as well (BC, Minn, NC State, Wake). It's all about the defense getting the big stop. 2013 team did that in those 4 games, this team hasn't done that the past 4 games. It will get better, just not sure if that will be this year or next. I am not sold on this staff overall, but they deserve to come back next year and prove they can get us back to a bowl as these players mature. If they can't, then a change should be made. Assuming we don't get to a bowl this year, which seems shaky to say the least.

 

[dasher]

Why do you say that? Just curious as We have not had any push and seem to have gotten pushed around a lot the past two weeks.

Freshman going up against 5th year sr.'s it is not surprising that they would struggle. These kids on the other team have been in their program for 3 and 4 years. Freshman can be good but just not strong enough at this point to compete for 60 minutes.

 

[rrlbees]

why are you banging the drum on Moreland? I'm really curious.

It's not a bang on Moreland, it's a reminder to those banging on Adams and the OL that Adams isn't responsible for the whole OL/TE situation.

 

[TheCusian]

But whatever? Who cares what the media says, people who have observed this program for years had a consensus about what the season would look like. The overall statistical performance was right in line with the final record. The performance of the defense and run game carried over and actually improved from 2012, which was entirely predictable.

We were under rating what we lost in 2012 and and way more hopeful in Mcit cowboy Joe and Hunt than we should have been.

 

[K Otto XLIV]

We were under rating what we lost in 2012 and and way more hopeful in Mc. . . . it cowboy Joe and Hunt than we should have been.

Shafer was on the staff the year before. He knew what the team was capable of on O. He made a mistake not insisting on a run orientated O in year 1. He also, along with Lester, made a mistake not identifying that Hunt gave us our best chance to win. If those two things were done we may have gone 9-4 that year.

 

[GoSU96]

We were under rating what we lost in 2012 and and way more hopeful in Mc. . . . it cowboy Joe and Hunt than we should have been.

Let get this straight,

They end up winning 7 games when most people expected the team to win between 8 and 6 games, the overall stats support winning that many games, the elements of the team that carried over, defense, OL, TE, RB's all performed at or better than in 2012,

and it's a huge accomplishment that they did exactly what was predicted and perfectly capable of doing.

Got it.

 

[djorange1989]

Let get this straight,

They end up winning 7 games when most people expected the team to win between 8 and 6 games, the overall stats support winning that many games, the elements of the team that carried over, defense, OL, TE, RB's all performed at or better than in 2012,

and it's a huge accomplishment that they did exactly what was predicted and perfectly capable of doing.

Got it.

who is most people?? I don't think anyone outside of the Syracuse fanbase picked them to win more than 4 games. I love how you look at how the stats turned out to show that they didn't overachieve. So, the rest of the world picks us to tank, we win 7 games, that isn't a big deal. Penn State wasn't a big OOC game because they were starting a true freshman at QB. Yet, we are starting a true Freshman at QB and many other positions this year and Shafer sucks. thanks for confirming my initial post.

 

[TheCusian]

Let get this straight,

They end up winning 7 games when most people expected the team to win between 8 and 6 games, the overall stats support winning that many games, the elements of the team that carried over, defense, OL, TE, RB's all performed at or better than in 2012,

and it's a huge accomplishment that they did exactly what was predicted and perfectly capable of doing.

Got it.

Most people on this board always pick us to be better than we are preseason. In hindsight, yeah - we overachieved given what we lost. The board basically always thinks we underachieve because we are more hopeful than a 3rd party observer. I get the irony here, I really do.

 

[RF2044]

The guy said there was no way I thought the 2013 team would do what it did. Turns out you, I, he, and just about everyone else did.

And you have a problem with that?

I think the problem is you don't like it pointed out how you claimed that 2013 was some kind of great deed when it was less than what the consensus of people who know the program thought it would be in real time.

You want me to link the post where you thought Hunt would be better than Nassib because he had "more talent" surrounding him.

So much for the cupboard being bare.

And what "joy" about the current staff and what's passive aggressive about posting about reality, including plenty of context?

Find 1 post where I said he should be fired, that if they go 0 for the rest of the year he should be let go, that I think Lester's offense is a joke, that press conferences mean a thing, that I think he doesn't have the intelligence for the job.

There are plenty where I like what Lester is doing, love what Dungey has been able to do, think that next year is the real evaluation year.

I've had three problems with Shafer, his sideline demeanor vs PSU and Clemson, McF***it, and to a lesser extent Adams.

That's it. But if you want to read some fictional hate filled agenda into that have at it.

2013 was a"great deed?" I would expect somebody who self proclaimed "knows the program" to have an appreciation that in 2013:

• We had a new coach who had never been a HC before
• We had new systems on both sides of the ball
• We lost all of the key offensive talent after the 2012 season
• We had a group of largely unproven coordinators
• The handpicked QB brought in to start flopped
• We started that season 0-2, and looked incredibly poor on offense until about mid-season
• We actually won all but one of the 50/50 games that year--something that hadn't been done before in more than a decade or since
• We qualified for bowl eligibility on the final play of the season, and had to convert a 4th and 17 in order to keep that game winning drive alive

Let those last four bullets for a second. Yeah -- in retrospect, it was pretty remarkable that we got to a bowl, let alone won 7 games.

And be my guest to post stuff from 2013. That you've actually spent time researching that proves that you're an even bigger wingnut than I originally gave you credit for.

 

[RF2044]

who is most people?? I don't think anyone outside of the Syracuse fanbase picked them to win more than 4 games. I love how you look at how the stats turned out to show that they didn't overachieve. So, the rest of the world picks us to tank, we win 7 games, that isn't a big deal. Penn State wasn't a big OOC game because they were starting a true freshman at QB. Yet, we are starting a true Freshman at QB and many other positions this year and Shafer sucks. thanks for confirming my initial post.

Don't bother. Claiming that the team should have won 7 that year is his passive agressive way of not giving the coaching staff credit for the incremental improvement they made in 2013 after the attrocious start on both sides of the ball.

Referencing a preseason prediction thread on a freaking fan forum as "evidence" isn't a very compelling argument.

 

[GoSU96]

who is most people?? I don't think anyone outside of the Syracuse fanbase picked them to win more than 4 games. I love how you look at how the stats turned out to show that they didn't overachieve. So, the rest of the world picks us to tank, we win 7 games, that isn't a big deal. Penn State wasn't a big OOC game because they were starting a true freshman at QB. Yet, we are starting a true Freshman at QB and many other positions this year and Shafer sucks. thanks for confirming my initial post.

Who cares what people outside of the program, who spend little to no time thinking about predicted.

Shafer took a team that was fully capable of winning 6 to 8 games against the schedule he played and did exactly that. That's not a bad job by any stretch, but it's not some great over achievement either. He did a fine job.

Just because PSU was on the schedule doesn't make it a brutal OOC schedule.

And what does any of that have to do with SU starting a freshmen QB this year and find anywhere that I said Shafer sucks?

 

[GoSU96]

Most people on this board always pick us to be better than we are preseason. In hindsight, yeah - we overachieved given what we lost. The board basically always thinks we underachieve because we are more hopeful than a 3rd party observer. I get the irony here, I really do.

In hindsight they were on the low end of expectations, played to a level they were completely capable based on the returning roster, and yet overachieved.

Uh, Okay.

 

[RF2044]

Who cares what people outside of the program, who spend little to no time thinking about predicted.

Shafer took a team that was fully capable of winning 6 to 8 games against the schedule he played and did exactly that. That's not a bad job by any stretch, but it's not some great over achievement either. He did a fine job.

Just because PSU was on the schedule doesn't make it a brutal OOC schedule.

And what does any of that have to do with SU starting a freshmen QB this year and find anywhere that I said Shafer sucks?

Repeating things that aren't accurate numerous times doesn't make them true. How on earth was a team that lost Nassib, Pugh, Lemon, Sales, and 90% of the coaching staff " ... a team fully capable of winning 6-8 games?"

Just because people were optimistic in the preseason prediction thread doesn't mean that the team was going to sustain the success from 2012 that a bunch of players / coaches who were no longer there were responsible for.

 

[AAM62]

What if he ends up winning 6 or more this season ?

LOL

 

[CousCuse]

LOL

"He (or she ) who laughs last , laughs best."

 

[SU68]

Why does everyone love HCSS? Week after week all I hear is excuse after excuse. It is time to cut the cord. The new AD has the perfect set up to bring in his guy. Year after year week after week the team finds ways to lose games that is the coaching. We have gotten to the point were we now have more talent than some of the teams we are losing too. I have no faith in HCSS to game plan and to make critical in fame decisions.

There is no easier time for the AD to get rid of HCSS. Another terrible season filled with coaching mistakes. AD has the excuse of being new and waiting his guy. We have young talent and new facilities that would make this an attractive spot for an up and coming coach.

I think HCSS is doing a decent job of bringing talent into the program but feel he isn't a good enough head coach to ever get the program over the hump. I think now we have young talent is the perfect time to move on.

We have young talent Just what makes you think that we would keep the young talent if Shafer got fired? Recruits choose a school because of the program and the coaching personalities. Does "It feels like family here" ring a bell? Kids don't come to SU for the beautiful weather and to play in a 30 year old obsolete dome.

 

[GoSU96]

Repeating things that aren't accurate numerous times doesn't make them true. How on earth was a team that lost Nassib, Pugh, Lemon, Sales, and 90% of the coaching staff " ... a team fully capable of winning 6-8 games?"

Just because people were optimistic in the preseason prediction thread doesn't mean that the team was going to sustain the success from 2012 that a bunch of players / coaches who were no longer there were responsible for.

Stop embarrassing yourself, they were fully capable of doing it, because they did it. You think three pages of predictions that are about the same are all based on optimism. There were a handful of 9 win predictions, but not sure what those people were seeing.

For the reasons that people thought they would win 6 to 8 games, the schedule, the returning defense, the returning OL, TE's and WR's and backfield.

It wasn't just Nassib, Pugh, Lemon and Sales, it was Wales, West, Smith, Moore, Gully, Hickey, Mackey, Trudo, Clark, Kobena, Broyld as well, and as a group they were just as big a part of how the offense did in 2012 as the guys that left, that's why I thought, and obviously a lot of others, that they were fully capable of doing exactly what they did.

That's why I had such a problem with MacDonald from the start because he didn't build around the returning strength of the offense and didn't focus on that strength until he had no choice. At least according to some he was more interested in gathering eggs or making omelets or something like that.

 

[RF2044]

Stop embarrassing yourself, they were fully capable of doing it, because they did it. You think there are three pages of predictions that are about the same are based on optimism. There were a handful of 9 win predictions, but not sure what those people were seeing.

For the reasons that people thought they would win 6 to 8 games, the schedule, the returning defense, the returning OL, TE's and WR's and backfield.

It wasn't just Nassib, Pugh, Lemon and Sales, it was Wales, West, Smith, Moore, Gully, Hickey, Mackey, Trudo, Clark, Kobena, Broyld as well, and as a group they were just as big a part of how the offense did in 2012 as the guys that left, that's why I thought, and obviously a lot of others, that they were fully capable of doing exactly what they did.

That's why I had such a problem with MacDonald from the start because he didn't build around the returning strength of the offense and didn't focus on that strength until he had no choice. At least according to some he was more interested in gathering eggs or making omelets or something like that.

Kobena??? ROFLMAO.

We lost the principals resonsible for the entire passing offense from 2012, including the coaches. But thank god we returned the distant third WR in the rotation, a QB who'd never seen the field, an overrated clown like Broyld who didn't play after fumbling @ Minnesota in 2012, and a guy like Kobena who barely did anything his entire career. How silly it is to not automatically think that group should have won more than 7 games.

Honestly, you are delusional.

 

[dasher]

Kobena??? ROFLMAO.

We lost the principals resonsible for the entire passing offense from 2012, including the coaches. But thank god we returned the distant third WR in the rotation, a QB who'd never seen the field, an overrated clown like Broyld who didn't play after fumbling @ Minnesota in 2012, and a guy like Kobena who barely did anything his entire career. How silly it is to not automatically think that group should have won more than 7 games.

Honestly, you are delusional.

He is not delusional. He knows better. He has to. Our 7-6 record that year, considering everything, was better than anything st Doug gave us. We have to diminish that.

 

[K Otto XLIV]

Kobena??? ROFLMAO.

We lost the principals resonsible for the entire passing offense from 2012, including the coaches. But thank god we returned the distant third WR in the rotation, a QB who'd never seen the field, an overrated clown like Broyld who didn't play after fumbling @ Minnesota in 2012, and a guy like Kobena who barely did anything his entire career. How silly it is to not automatically think that group should have won more than 7 games.

Honestly, you are delusional.

We still had a very good running game, which Shafer knew when he was hired, and we played a lot softer schedule.

2013
Top 30 two games 0-2
31-60 three games 0-3
61-90 four games 3-1
91-120 two games 2-0
Plus Wagner at 236

2012
Top 30 two games 1-1
31-60 five games 2-3
61-90 three games 2-1
91-120 one game 1-0
Plus Stony Brook at 129

In 2013 we had 7 games vs teams outside the Top 60 in the Sagarin. Sure in 2012 we only went 7-5 but a lot of that had to do with schedule. If they played the 2013 schedule that is likely a 9 win team. So going from 9 Ws to 6 Ws is the expected drop for losing all the guys you mentioned.

 

[dasher]

Well, we didn't win 9 games the year before. And I don't think you can over state how much losing a qb like Nassib hurts a program like ours. The last staff did nothing in the way of bringing in a replacement for him.

 

[TheCusian]

We still had a very good running game, which Shafer knew when he was hired, and we played a lot softer schedule. 2013 Top 30 two games 0-2 31-60 three games 0-3 61-90 four games 3-1 91-120 two games 2-0 Plus Wagner at 236 2012 Top 30 two games 1-1 31-60 five games 2-3 61-90 three games 2-1 91-120 one game 1-0 Plus Stony Brook at 129 In 2013 we had 7 games vs teams outside the Top 60 in the Sagarin. Sure in 2012 we only went 7-5 but a lot of that had to do with schedule. If they played the 2013 schedule that is likely a 9 win team. So going from 9 Ws to 6 Ws is the expected drop for losing all the guys you mentioned.

He was too hands off with Mcit until late. Then gave him free reign in the off season again. Poor choices.

 

[GoSU96]

He is not delusional. He knows better. He has to. Our 7-6 record that year, considering everything, was better than anything st Doug gave us. We have to diminish that.

I'm not diminishing anything. He won seven games with a team that was good enough to win seven games. How is pointing that out, and pointing how that the vast majority of people who follow the team had the same assessment, denigrating what he did.

In fact you knew how things lined up going into that season.

 

[K Otto XLIV]

Well, we didn't win 9 games the year before. And I don't think you can over state how much losing a qb like Nassib hurts a program like ours. The last staff did nothing in the way of bringing in a replacement for him.

If it makes you feel better than the 2013 team playing the 2012 schedule is likely a 3-9 team which is worse than 7-5 and explained by the drop off in lost talent.

 

[GoSU96]

Kobena??? ROFLMAO.

We lost the principals resonsible for the entire passing offense from 2012, including the coaches. But thank god we returned the distant third WR in the rotation, a QB who'd never seen the field, an overrated clown like Broyld who didn't play after fumbling @ Minnesota in 2012, and a guy like Kobena who barely did anything his entire career. How silly it is to not automatically think that group should have won more than 7 games.

Honestly, you are delusional.

The only one engaging in after the fact myth making is you.

You keep fixating on the passing game, it's one part of the game.

Jesus, you thought they'd win 9 that year, where did that come from?

You're the one who thought Hunt was surrounded by more talent than Nassib had, where did that come from?