Why and how to retain HCSS

[kcsu]

This is a really interesting OP. Question: what would be the line in the sand where Shafer has to go? If we only go 3-9 again?

Full disclosure: I like Shafer. I think his personality by and large would jazz up the fan base, if we could ever get things turned around. I really like what he and his ACs are doing on the recruiting trail, and it is obvious that they are bringing in higher caliber athletes / playmakers than the previous staffs were able to do. Not knocking those previous staffs, but we'd been on a steady decline post-McNabb. So it all comes down to whether or not we give Shafer a little more time to see if the young talent begins to excel, IMO.

On the flipside, this current staff doesn't appear to be on the same level as their predecessors in terms of game planning. Game coaching might also be a net loss [hard to say, I questioned Marrone's in game coaching capabilities, but the game planning differential is stark and noteworthy]. Marrone didn't have nearly the What blowout losses that Shafer has had. And we probably don't lose yesterday with Marrone at the helm. :noidea:

I want this staff to succeed--I honestly do. But at some point, you have to question whether they are good enough. I think they can be. Maybe it is just a matter of making a few AC coaching changes to have things pop. I'm fairly well convinced that we're going to see an uptick in play next year, when we return an experienced QB and 7-9 starters on both sides of the ball. So in the main, the future looks promising. But are we wasting time?

Curious to hear your response, KCSU.

I really like HCSS as well but long term i think that he will end up being replaced as i dont see him having the ability to take us to the level that we can get to. What i do believe is that know is not the time to make a change as i truly believe that it would be a disaster for the program. Shafer has done some good things and he is doing a good job recruiting. Forget last year as Lombardi couldnt have done much last year. This year was always going to be a rebuilding year and when Hunt went down we lost our leader. Sure Dungey is going to end up being better than Hunt but we still lost our captain and heart of this team. Back to recruiting. If Shafer were let go now i believe that Syracuse as a program would get a black eye with many HS. Now next year if Shafer doesnt get it done and a change is made those same HS coaches will understand. So i think that he deserves another year but much more importantly i believe that the upside of letting him go is not even close to the downside which could truly be devastating at this point.

 

[RF2044]

Good post. Anything under 5-7 IMO and Coyle needs to at the very least force changes to the staff. There are a lot of questionable assistants IMO. But this is Shafer's band and he is loyal. Would he be willing to do a Beamer and clean house?

My biggest concern is the game planning. It feels like we are out coached too often, even against poor HCs. SU will never have a talent advantage vs its peers. So we need the coaching to get something out of nothing. Shafer hasn't shown the ability to do that yet.

I think that Reed, Adam, and Bullough all need to be evaluated. Period.

Not looking to villainize any of them, but we need to find the best components that we can, not worry about relational considerations. Is Daoust DC material?

 

[RF2044]

I really like HCSS as well but long term i think that he will end up being replaced as i dont see him having the ability to take us to the level that we can get to. What i do believe is that know is not the time to make a change as i truly believe that it would be a disaster for the program. Shafer has done some good things and he is doing a good job recruiting. Forget last year as Lombardi couldnt have done much last year. This year was always going to be a rebuilding year and when Hunt went down we lost our leader. Sure Dungey is going to end up being better than Hunt but we still lost our captain and heart of this team. Back to recruiting. If Shafer were let go now i believe that Syracuse as a program would get a black eye with many HS. Now next year if Shafer doesnt get it done and a change is made those same HS coaches will understand. So i think that he deserves another year but much more importantly i believe that the upside of letting him go is not even close to the downside which could truly be devastating at this point.

I tend to agree. Forget the rankings, the offer lists of the recruits we're landing are exponentially better than previous recruiting classes. It will be interesting to see what the younger talent can do once they've got a bit more experience under their belts. Merely having Dungey is a huge strategic asset for the team--we can build around a player like that.

No question that Shafer and staff are doing yeoman's work on the recruiting trail. I'm just concerned about them with the on-field aspect of coaching. Off the field, this is the best group we've had in a long time. The recruiting speaks for itself.

And yes, I know that we are in a better conference, revenue is up, and that we have better facilities to pitch. I'm convinced that talent is 80% of what is takes to be successful in college football, and that we're trending positively in that regard. It is the other 20% that worries me.

 

[kcsu]

I think that Reed, Adam, and Bullough all need to be evaluated. Period.

Not looking to villainize any of them, but we need to find the best components that we can, not worry about relational considerations. Is Daoust DC material?

yes he is but i doubt given the tight bond between Daoust chuck and Shafer that a change would be made. I do however believe that we need to hire a great OL coach as that position is outside of QB the most important position on the O. Reed just doesnt seem to be coaching his guys up at all and i also think that we need a major upgrade there

 

[rrlbees]

I think that Reed, Adam, and Bullough all need to be evaluated. Period. Not looking to villainize any of them, but we need to find the best components that we can, not worry about relational considerations. Is Daoust DC material?

And Moreland.

 

[jekelish]

yes he is but i doubt given the tight bond between Daoust chuck and Shafer that a change would be made. I do however believe that we need to hire a great OL coach as that position is outside of QB the most important position on the O. Reed just doesnt seem to be coaching his guys up at all and i also think that we need a major upgrade there

I'm still perplexed as to why Reed's name has never come up as being on the hot seat. Our secondary has been pretty woeful for awhile now. I realize we don't exactly have Revis back there but still, it's inexcusable to give up so many bad completions.

 

[RF2044]

And Moreland.

Fair.

 

[GoSU96]

You didn't know that in August 2012. Going into the season - you predicted that?! First year in the ACC with a new OC, HC, QB, and 2 starting WR's?

Cmon.

I guess I did,

http://syracusefan.com/threads/official-final-record-prediction-thread.56364/#post-724359

I didn't remember I started the season prediction thread.

"My take,

SU 20 - PSU 17
NWest 31 – SU 17
SU 38 – Wagner 6
SU 31 – Tulane 17
Clemson 42 – SU 10
SU 24 – NCSt 17
GT 42 – SU 31
SU 34 – Wake 24
SU 24 – UMD 20
FSU 45 – SU 13
SU 21 – Pitt 20
SU 31 – BC 17"

Outcome,

PSU 23 - 17
NWest 49-27
SU 54-0
SU52-17
Clemson 49-14
SU 24-10
GT 56-0
SU 13-0
SU 20-3
FSU 59-3
Pitt 17-16
SU 34-31

I'd say I had a pretty good handle on how the season was going to unfold.

Most of this board predicted better than 6-6, including you and Mr. Context.

 

[Dr. Bill]

Tough loss. A real stinger. We had every significant advantage over UVa with one glaring exception: Mizzell (#4) was the best player on the field and we rarely, if ever stopped him.

If this were baseball, I'd feel like we hit 4 solo homers but lost, 5-4, thanks to a flurry of infield hits, bloopers and walks.

I agree with some of what I have read on this site the last few days, disagree with some other stuff. These opinions are mine and if you disagree, you are likely nuts/wrong, but I respect your thoughts as long as you are not trolling or have an obvious bias.

I don’t love what I saw in the coaching department yesterday, but I am not really ready to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Personally, I just don’t think I am ready to start over again.
New coaching staff. New recruiting contacts/scope. New offense. New defense. Kids leaving, some of which could be upper-tier players. Everyone seems to assume the new HC is going to be better in every facet (staff hires, offense, defense, recruiting, public persona). And more often than not, they don’t hit home runs in all of these areas. Perhaps some, but not others.

Three years in, I see the Shafer administration doing well on offense, defense, special teams and recruiting. Continuity should bear fruit.

Offense
Unlike most here, I really like Lester’s offense. I think we’ve moved the ball better this year than any season dating to McNabb, with the exception of Nassib’s senior season. It’s not perfect, of course. How much of this success is predicated on the presence of Dungey? A lot I suppose, but I think you could say that about a good number of offenses around the nation. We should do better in the red zone. IMHO, we should stretch the field a bit more vertically. I wish we could run the ball between the tackles. To me, the offensive line is sub-par this season and this is hindering our offensive efforts. They’ve been poor despite being a veteran unit.

Defense
Terrible irony that for the last 5-6 years, our defense is all we’ve often had to hang our hat on. And now that we have a requisite offense and a young & dynamic quarterback (any multiple playmakers), our defense is really struggling. That said, my eyes tell me that I should believe that the prior 5 years can be the norm and this year is an aberration. We have some work to do, but we’ve seen Shafer and Bullough perform at a high level for years at a time.

Special Teams
Much much better this year. We all see that. Not perfect, but it’s been a while since we’ve been this strong in the kicking game. The return game, especially on punts, is above average for the first time since Qadry, Shelby Hill or Jim Turner were on campus (it been a long time). Plugging in a highly regarded kicker, who is currently redshirting, next year won’t hurt things.

Recruiting
It’s going well. Noticeable improvement it would seem, especially in the recruitment of the quarterback position. In the last 5 years, we’ve expanded our scope to the Midwest and Georgia a bit. After years of being nearly shut out, we are again solid in Florida. New Jersey is trending up, granted at a steady pace, and that is okay. And I think we are gaining traction in the Empire State. Having Steven Gregory on staff won’t hurt those efforts in NYC in the coming years. I’d also like to see us to make some hay in Pennsylvania in the coming years. Immediate focus for me would be on the offensive and defensive lines.

Overall
Yesterday was not that good. We needed one stop and had about 4-5 chances to achieve it. Calls inside the 2-yard line were iffy at best. I've seen Shafer grow this year. I've seen him go for it on 4th-and-1 multiple times (yesterday was a bad decision on the risk/reward scale). I've seen fake kicks work a vast majority of the time. I've seen better, but not flawless, clock management.

What I do want to see Shafer and Co. do it go for the jugular. Play to win (cliche). I know this sounds silly, but I feel yesterday, he relished the opportunity to win the game by 7 points or less. Well, I think we had so much going for us that we could have won that game by 10-14 points. Yes, run-run-pass when we had the ball in the 4th quarter. But also, when we were up 7 (late in the 3rd Q) and had the ball first-and-goal on the 9 yard line. Run-run-pass = Field goal. Go for the win Coach. Coach or show these kids how to win, not how to survive. (disclaimer: sometimes run-run-pass works, but I feel like this becomes quite difficult inside the 10 yard line).

Overall
I have no allegiance to Shafer in any way. I do like him enough and respect what he represents, but I don’t love him and am not married to keeping him. I do have a lot a faith in Coyle, so if he does pull the plug, I believe he’ll make a good hire. But if he asked me today, I’d tell him to keep Shafer because I like much of what I am seeing.

I agree with your assessment. I am not in love with Shafer but I do see improvement despite our record. Recruiting is trending in the positive. To hire a new coach would set us back in so many ways. I think the new AD, Coyle, needs to have a sit down with share concerning changes on his staff. We need a new OL coach with solid experience and a new secondary coach in my opinion.

 

[NineOneSeven]

Who Are our assistants and what are their areas? Thanks in advance.

 

[Orangello]

I could see the AD giving him next year but with a must win mandate. The real question is do you believe that SS is the best long term solution for SU ? I don't.

 

[elimunelson]

I could see the AD giving him next year but with a must win mandate. The real question is do you believe that SS is the best long term solution for SU ? I don't.

Next season starts Colgate, TBA, USF, at Uconn, at ND (pscyhe, at NYC!).

That @Uconn game with Bob Diaco having them play well will be Shafer's waterloo if they get another year to fix this.

 

[RF2044]

I guess I did,

http://syracusefan.com/threads/official-final-record-prediction-thread.56364/#post-724359

I didn't remember I started the season prediction thread.

"My take,

SU 20 - PSU 17
NWest 31 – SU 17
SU 38 – Wagner 6
SU 31 – Tulane 17
Clemson 42 – SU 10
SU 24 – NCSt 17
GT 42 – SU 31
SU 34 – Wake 24
SU 24 – UMD 20
FSU 45 – SU 13
SU 21 – Pitt 20
SU 31 – BC 17"

Outcome,

PSU 23 - 17
NWest 49-27
SU 54-0
SU52-17
Clemson 49-14
SU 24-10
GT 56-0
SU 13-0
SU 20-3
FSU 59-3
Pitt 17-16
SU 34-31

I'd say I had a pretty good handle on how the season was going to unfold.

Most of this board predicted better than 6-6, including you and Mr. Context.

I honestly don't know what's worse--the belligerence with which you thought policed the board during the Marrone era, attacking any and all perceived criticism against your hero, or the passive aggressive wingnut BS you take joy in posting now about the current staff.

Kudos on cornering that board niche.

Either way, unsubscribe.

 

[Macky44]

If im Coyle i would keep Shafer under the following provision.

* The team doesnt quit on him

* The team regardless of W/L continues to make progress.

* Recruiting continues to trend upward and he retains his key recruits in the event we continue to lose this year

* He agrees to review his staff and make adjustments that might be warranted such as the secondary and Oline

* There are no major off field issues.

If the above is met i would provide him with a 2 year extension. The extension would have a low and high end buy out. If he was let go with a less than 5 win season going forward the buyout would be the lower number. 6 wins or greater would earn the higher amount.

At this point with the injuries of last year, Lester being new and showing promise, More youth playing significant roles than at anytime in the history of SU Football, recruiting trending up i believe that unless we have the money to hire a true name coach and staff that we would be making a huge mistake to fire him after this year. The program is heading in the right direction regardless of the W/L results. To fire Shafer now could set us back many years. Next year we will still be very young but we will have the best depth at many key positions that we have had in years. This years recruiting class looks very strong and wih them in the fold combined with this years team growing bigger stronger faster and smarter coupled with another year in the Lester system we should be poised to do very well. At that point it the excuses will no longer exist and Coyle can make a true decision based on HCSS and his staff ability to coach.

One more years guys. That is the right call at this point.

I may be in the minority..but i say 1 more year at minimum. People forget a perfect example in David Cutcliffe at Duke, and how patient they were with him. Look at Duke now. His first 5 years at Duke his win totals 4,5,3,3,6. They let him build, and he showed what can happen.

 

[TheCusian]

I guess I did, http://syracusefan.com/threads/official-final-record-prediction-thread.56364/#post-724359 I didn't remember I started the season prediction thread. "My take, SU 20 - PSU 17 NWest 31 – SU 17 SU 38 – Wagner 6 SU 31 – Tulane 17 Clemson 42 – SU 10 SU 24 – NCSt 17 GT 42 – SU 31 SU 34 – Wake 24 SU 24 – UMD 20 FSU 45 – SU 13 SU 21 – Pitt 20 SU 31 – BC 17" Outcome, PSU 23 - 17 NWest 49-27 SU 54-0 SU52-17 Clemson 49-14 SU 24-10 GT 56-0 SU 13-0 SU 20-3 FSU 59-3 Pitt 17-16 SU 34-31 I'd say I had a pretty good handle on how the season was going to unfold. Most of this board predicted better than 6-6, including you and Mr. Context.

Good find. I stand corrected.

How about nationally? Media? I know I read just recently on ESPN from AA that we exceeded expectations that year.

But whatever. I maintain that given what we lost a 3-5 season would have surprised very few people.

 

[K Otto XLIV]

I think that Reed, Adam, and Bullough all need to be evaluated. Period.

Not looking to villainize any of them, but we need to find the best components that we can, not worry about relational considerations. Is Daoust DC material?

IMO Shafer made a big mistake bringing in Bullough. You don't hire someone because of a promise. Strategically since Shafer is a D guy most of the money for assistants should have gone to the O side right from the start. Instead he has hired guys with no experience on O and brought in D guys who have experience. It makes no sense. Daoust can absolutely handle the Monday-Friday responsibilities. If he cannot call a game than Shafer can do it. Move Daoust to DC, Adam to DL, and use the money from Bullough to get the best OL coach we can.

 

[leftytg]

Good find. I stand corrected.

How about nationally? Media? I know I read just recently on ESPN from AA that we exceeded expectations that year.

But whatever. I maintain that given what we lost a 3-5 season would have surprised very few people.

i, for one, would have been extremely surprised that the team would only play 8 games that season.

 

[K Otto XLIV]

I may be in the minority..but i say 1 more year at minimum. People forget a perfect example in David Cutcliffe at Duke, and how patient they were with him. Look at Duke now. His first 5 years at Duke his win totals 4,5,3,3,6. They let him build, and he showed what can happen.

Different story. Cutcliffe was taking over a team that went 1-10, 0-12, 1-11 the 3 years prior. So going 3-9 was a huge improvement. Shafer took over a team that went 8-5, 5-7, 8-5 the 3 years prior. So having a 3-9 season followed by whatever happens this seasons is a regression.

 

[TheCusian]

i, for one, would have been extremely surprised that the team would only play 8 games that season.

Edit *3-5 win season*

 

[TheCusian]

Different story. Cutcliffe was taking over a team that went 1-10, 0-12, 1-11 the 3 years prior. So going 3-9 was a huge improvement. Shafer took over a team that went 8-5, 5-7, 8-5 the 3 years prior. So having a 3-9 season followed by whatever happens this seasons is a regression.

You forgot 7-6 in 2013.

3-9 was a regression. Mcit hire and demotion set us back, injuries finished us off.

This year is the start of something.

 

[PhatOrange]

Some people knew the defense would take a step back and others were dreaming that it wouldn’t.

These were the starters last weekend by class. IMHO, Bullough has earned a pass.

DE – Junior
DT - Freshman
DT – Freshman
DE – Senior

LB – Freshman
LB – Sophomore
LB – Junior

CB – Sophomore
SS – Sophomore
FS – Freshman
CB - Senior

 

[PhatOrange]

And Moreland.

why are you banging the drum on Moreland? I'm really curious.

 

[Macky44]

Different story. Cutcliffe was taking over a team that went 1-10, 0-12, 1-11 the 3 years prior. So going 3-9 was a huge improvement. Shafer took over a team that went 8-5, 5-7, 8-5 the 3 years prior. So having a 3-9 season followed by whatever happens this seasons is a regression.

You clearly have your narrative, so Im wasting my time arguing against you obviously.

 

[GoSU96]

I honestly don't know what's worse--the belligerence with which you thought policed the board during the Marrone era, attacking any and all perceived criticism against your hero, or the passive aggressive wingnut BS you take joy in posting now about the current staff.

Kudos on cornering that board niche.

Either way, unsubscribe.

The guy said there was no way I thought the 2013 team would do what it did. Turns out you, I, he, and just about everyone else did.

And you have a problem with that?

I think the problem is you don't like it pointed out how you claimed that 2013 was some kind of great deed when it was less than what the consensus of people who know the program thought it would be in real time.

You want me to link the post where you thought Hunt would be better than Nassib because he had "more talent" surrounding him.

So much for the cupboard being bare.

And what "joy" about the current staff and what's passive aggressive about posting about reality, including plenty of context?

Find 1 post where I said he should be fired, that if they go 0 for the rest of the year he should be let go, that I think Lester's offense is a joke, that press conferences mean a thing, that I think he doesn't have the intelligence for the job.

There are plenty where I like what Lester is doing, love what Dungey has been able to do, think that next year is the real evaluation year.

I've had three problems with Shafer, his sideline demeanor vs PSU and Clemson, McF***it, and to a lesser extent Adams.

That's it. But if you want to read some fictional hate filled agenda into that have at it.

 

[GoSU96]

Good find. I stand corrected.

How about nationally? Media? I know I read just recently on ESPN from AA that we exceeded expectations that year.

But whatever. I maintain that given what we lost a 3-5 season would have surprised very few people.

But whatever?

Who cares what the media says, people who have observed this program for years had a consensus about what the season would look like. The overall statistical performance was right in line with the final record.

The performance of the defense and run game carried over and actually improved from 2012, which was entirely predictable.