Why Boeheim Is Not A Good Coach | Page 2 | Syracusefan.com

Why Boeheim Is Not A Good Coach

Boeheim has shown he's a Hall of Fame COLLEGE coach (not that I buy everything he does).

It seems the real point is he's not good at teaching his players - even the great ones - the skills and work ethic necessary to be great pros. We all know the record. We see his examples. What's the basis for arguing that point?

Our players - even the great ones - don't rock the NBA.
 
Grant Hill may be the only superstar but he has coached a ton of quality NBA players. Elton Brand, Carlos Boozer, and Kyrie Irving are all stars. Deng, Laettner, Maggette all very solid starters for many years. Reddick, Battier, Dawkins, Dunleavy quality role players. And Jay Williams and Hurley didn't really have a chance.
Sure, but that's not this guy's premise. Everyone you just named was a McDonald's All-American. The expectation is they'd be more than contributors. Hakim Warrick has had a solid career so far and was ranked around 90 coming out of highschool. Jason Hart and Etan Thomas have both had around 10 year careers and weren't superstars coming out of highschool. My point is anytime someone compiles a list of the greatest college coaches, K is at the top. If you're the best (according to this guy) then you should be producing the best pros. Am I saying JB is K's equal? No. But that doesn't mean he's bad either. He's one of the best in the game and anyone who knows basketball understands that.
 
Its hard to argue on his SU in the NBA take though. Maybe just coincidence?

Considering how Boeheim and Syracuse reside in the upper pantheon of respect on the college level, it is striking how so few players have ever had a meaningful impact in the NBA. Let’s look at the notables:

CARMELO ANTHONY
Currently in the headlines for causing havoc in both Denver and New York, Melo has never shown the ability nor the desire to play man to man defense. He’s never displayed a positional understanding of weakside help, nor has he been able to blend himself into a team offense. The last time he truly fit in was with Boeheim at Syracuse, where their offense expects one on one play.
Career: 24.5ppg, 6.3rpg, 3.1apg, 1.1spg, 46% FG

DERRICK COLEMAN
He is the poster child for great athlete who never knew how to play the game. Bouncing from team to team for 15 years, he showed just enough promise to make another team want to trade for him, but weighing them down once he arrived.
Career: 16.5ppg, 9.3rpg, 2.5apg,1.3bpg 45% FG

SHERMAN DOUGLAS
“The General” also never fulfilled the promise of alley oop dimes he displayed so prominently while with the Orangemen. Never one to be in great shape, he was always a step slow, yet stuck around for 12 mediocre years, playing his best ball on some pretty lousy teams;
Career: 11ppg, 2.2rpg, 5.9apg, 48% FG

BILLY OWENS
There is definitely a theme emerging here, as Owens also lacked defensive instincts, offensive fundamentals, and never achieved anywhere close to the promise he showed in college. His weight fluctuated and was never dedicated to maintaining his athletic physique.
Career: 11.7ppg, 6.7rpg, 2.8apg, 48% FG

RONY SEIKALY
The best pro of any of the Orangemen Boeheim has coached, he benefited from being from a different country, I’m sure bringing his work ethic with him from Lebanon. His post game was polished, but I’d argue he did a lot of that polishing after he got to the NBA. He starred for some pretty awful Miami Heat teams in the early 90′s, before bouncing around the league.
Career: 14.7ppg, 9.5rpg, 1.3apg, 1.3bpg, 48% FG

ETAN THOMAS
A journeyman who started only 74 NBA games in 9 seasons, he was woefully underskilled on the offensive end, but used hustle and desire to be a bit of a defensive presence. His main forte was grabbing rebounds, not helping on the weakside.
Career: 5.7ppg, 4.7rpg, 1bpg, 51% FG 17 mins/gm

JOHN WALLACE
Coming out of college as a dominant player, averaging 22.2 points per game and 8.7 rebounds, he had the body and the numbers to merit the 18th pick in the 1996 NBA Draft. The Knicks liked him so much, they traded him after one year to get Chris Dudley, who was at the end of a very undistinguished career. Never able to fit in, he lasted just 7 seasons.
Career: 7.6ppg, 2.8rpg, 46% FG 16 mins/gm

HAKIM WARRICK
This is enough to make it seem like Boeheim is just producing clones. Another promising player who had 4 years of “tutelage” from Boeheim, he had a dominant career in college only to realize he had no idea how to defend at the NBA level, not find a good fit on the offensive end with his limited skill set. His best years were on some of the worst teams of all time in Memphis, yet he’s still toiling away for a mediocre Phoenix team, getting 14 minutes/game.
Career: 9.6ppg, 4.1rpg, 50% FG

There are other names scattered about that merely had cups of coffee in the NBA, guys like Dwayne “The Pearl” Washington, and out of this world athlete Stephen Thompson who, in four years at Syracuse, never learned anything besides catching alley oops and slamming them home.
Two current youngsters in the NBA seem to be reliving this exact same nightmare: Jonny Flynn and Wesley Johnson. Flynn only played 2 years at Syracuse, so really got to learn nothing from Beoheim, and has already played for 3 teams in 3 years, shooting himself off the floor with a career 40 percent field goal percentage. And Wesley Johnson has already been declared a bust – a typical Boeheim elite athlete that never learned the skills necessary to compete at the NBA level.

The purpose of many college programs is not to build NBA players, but given the fact that Boeheim has been around for so long, and that the perception is that he’s a very good coach, wouldn’t you think his players would have a little bit more success in the NBA? Don’t you think at least one would rise to the level of perennial All Star? After breaking down this game, it makes me wonder what is happening at Syracuse during practices? (Insert inappropriate Bernie Fine joke HERE) His program is clearly not designed to help his players excel in the NBA, since they have no practical experience playing man to man defense, nor do they know how to exist in an offense that requires any kind of sustained movement. This is how I judge a coach – how well he teaches the game of basketball and how well his players execute those skills. In this regard, Boeheim has failed and makes me wonder just how long he’ll remain the ringmaster at Syracuse.



On the basis of your assessment of Derrick Coleman alone, as a player who "never knew how to play the game," and Sherman Douglas as being out of shape, it is pretty clear that you don't have a ing clue what the hell you are talking about.

It bears repeating--this was an embarrassingly bad, misinformed, dopey assessment.
 
Jb hasn't had the top 10 players that other schools have either.
You can't argue guys like Boozer and Irving. Irving was the number one recruit coming into college. Boozer was a Senior stud. Grant Hill could have been one of the best ever had he not got hurt. We didn't have Amare, or John Wall for that matter.

1. Paul Harris didn't fit a position.
2. Johnny Flynn was smaller not so physical and not a great jumpshooter.
3.Guys like Melo and Bing were studs you could ride on offense.
4. Warrick and Rautins weren't even picked to make the NBA.

Guys like Gmac, Nichols, Edelin Warrick and Pearl Washington were College studs you couldn't ask much more from. You could ride them offensively but they weren't all americans.

The last player JB recurited we could ride on offense was Melo in 2003 and we all know how that went. After him maybe MCW.
Flynn, Harris, Fab, Xmas, Nichols, Gerry were not known to take over AAU games. none were one and done offensive talents.

Also just like every other team it takes 5 guys to play defense. Some years JB's D has 3 position weaknesses others it has had 1.5 to 2, a very rare year maybe even .5 to 1.
If you want to talk NBA players then Coach K isn't a great coach despite winning a title two years ago with mediocre talent and good defensive balence. If you are going to exclude JB on top talent then exclude Coach K when he gets some to.
 
so zone sucks. boeheim cant coach. ohio st is great...and yet we were in the game till the end without the big east defensive player of the year. holy ..if we played man and had even an average coach, we would have won by 100 points
 
On the basis of your assessment of Derrick Coleman alone, as a player who "never knew how to play the game," and Sherman Douglas as being out of shape, it is pretty clear that you don't have a ******* clue what the hell you are talking about.

It bears repeating--this was an embarrassingly bad, misinformed, dopey assessment.

That wasn't the posters assessment, that was the writers. Although the poster did say it was hard to argue.
 
Guys like Gmac, Nichols, Edelin Warrick and Pearl Washington were College studs you couldn't ask much more from. You could ride them offensively but they weren't all americans.

If you post something in bold type to make a point it would be nice if it were accurate. Washington was a second team All-American in 1985 and Warrick was a first team All-American in 2005.
 
The purpose of many college programs is not to build NBA players, but given the fact that Boeheim has been around for so long, and that the perception is that he’s a very good coach, wouldn’t you think his players would have a little bit more success in the NBA? Don’t you think at least one would rise to the level of perennial All Star? After breaking down this game, it makes me wonder what is happening at Syracuse during practices? (Insert inappropriate Bernie Fine joke HERE) His program is clearly not designed to help his players excel in the NBA, since they have no practical experience playing man to man defense, nor do they know how to exist in an offense that requires any kind of sustained movement. This is how I judge a coach – how well he teaches the game of basketball and how well his players execute those skills. In this regard, Boeheim has failed and makes me wonder just how long he’ll remain the ringmaster at Syracuse.

JB has failed in teaching his players the game of basketball? Wow. That seems off the wall. I've seen so many players improve throughout their years.

It seems like you and Zelda are applying the recent success of SUs recruiting and applying it to JBs entire tenure and then using it against him. He has only recently attracted the cream of the crop, and for that brief period in the late 80s. The rest of the time he built his squad with players he developed in-house. JB has won with a lot of players he identified early and then developed into very good college players - AO, RJ, Rautins. Using the NBA as the yard stick for showing that a coach can teach basketball makes no sense. There are players that do not need to go to college and will still be good NBA players - ie LeBron.

I think your analysis helps the case of the opposite point you were attempting to make, that JB is a good coach. JB has not had great talent and has had to make do with his home grown talent. When he has had the elite players, as shown by the NBA excellence, he has succeeded, Carmelo and DC.

It bodes well for what can happen with the uptick in recruiting. And this past year shows it can happen.
 
That wasn't the posters assessment, that was the writers. Although the poster did say it was hard to argue.


I was directing my saltiness at the goof who did the video / write up, not at melomyman. Sorry if that was unclear.
 
I was directing my saltiness at the goof who did the video / write up, not at melomyman. Sorry if that was unclear.

I don't think the writer reads the board. But if he has received a lot of hate e-mail, maybe he does now.
 
Boeheim has shown he's a Hall of Fame COLLEGE coach (not that I buy everything he does).

It seems the real point is he's not good at teaching his players - even the great ones - the skills and work ethic necessary to be great pros. We all know the record. We see his examples. What's the basis for arguing that point?

Our players - even the great ones - don't rock the NBA.

Do you honestly believe that guys like Anthony, Coleman, Douglas, Owens, Seikaly, Schayes, Warrick, Orr, Hart and Thomas have not had substantial careers in the NBA?
 
I don't think the writer reads the board. But if he has received a lot of hate e-mail, maybe he does now.


You know for certain that guy in the video wasn't blue curtain?
 
Do you honestly believe that guys like Anthony, Coleman, Douglas, Owens, Seikaly, Schayes, Warrick, Orr, Hart and Thomas have not had substantial careers in the NBA?

over 25 years? thats probably pretty average or below average of the top tier teams.

compare that to our football? our football nfl'ers are shockingly BETTER PROS. and that isn't a question. i am talking WAY BETTER.

Mcnabb, Harrison, and Freeney are basically all carmelo anthony's in the same time period.
 
over 25 years? thats probably pretty average or below average of the top tier teams.

compare that to our football? our football nfl'ers are shockingly BETTER PROS. and that isn't a question. i am talking WAY BETTER.

Mcnabb, Harrison, and Freeney are basically all carmelo anthony's in the same time period.

Show me some empirical evidence regarding the NBA careers of players from other "top tier teams." Be sure to include Duke too.

Not sure where you're going with the NFL comparison. I believe that's an entirely different sport.
 
I am not going to bother re litigating something that was put to bed on this forum twenty years ago but if you don’t think JB has done well with what he has had; I have two words for you -- Lawrence Moten.
Revisionists need not apply!
 
Boeheim's a good coach, you can't win almost 75% of your games and win a NC without at least being that.
 
Which D1 basketball team does he coach?

So, appreciation of JB would also be nullified when it comes from someone who isn't a D1 coach?
 
Boeheim's a good coach, you can't win almost 75% of your games and win a NC without at least being that.
Steve Fisher has a NC. Gary Williams has one. Sometimes stuff happens. [I'm less impressed that JB has a NC than with the fact that he has three finals appearances.]
re: 75%... Can you really say that we don't have better/more talent than MORE than 75% of the teams we play? And, don't leave out the non-conference/pre-conference schedule. With the Dome as a major recruiting factor, what percentage of games would you expect we should win with a 'replacement level' coach? I'm playing devil's advocate here. Seriously. If this were baseball, and you were evaluating the coach in terms of WAR, how many wins is JB worth over the course of a season? Don't cherrypick this season. Take the last 15 years, and plug in an 'average coach' with the same players. Last year, i think i figured that SU finished, an average of 4th in the conference over those 15 years. Objectively, what's JB worth?
 
Syracuse doesn't get the MCD AA Kentucky, UNC and Duke have through the years.
And the ones we got were raw compared to thes ones Duke, UNC and UK got.
Show me some empirical evidence regarding the NBA careers of players from other "top tier teams." Be sure to include Duke too.

Not sure where you're going with the NFL comparison. I believe that's an entirely different sport.

Agree. basketball is all about stats and the offense stardom is all about what you do in isolation.
Football its all about making a big play. In basketball the only big plays remembered are the ones down the stretch. They don't belong in the same conversation.

Jason Hart was a hell of a defender like Freeney. Douglas was a hell of a quarterback like Mcnabb.
And Nichols/Gerry could shoot a ball like Harrison could catch one.
You don't even have to play on both sides of the ball in football and the ratio of players is around 4 to 1.
 
So, appreciation of JB would also be nullified when it comes from someone who isn't a D1 coach?

Huh?? Guess you miss the point. He talks like he KNOWS how a 2-3 zone should be played vs a guy who is a D1 coach AND noted as one of the best at teaching it. I'd like to know his credentials on how a 2-3 zone is suppose to be played.
 
Steve Fisher has a NC. Gary Williams has one. Sometimes stuff happens. [I'm less impressed that JB has a NC than with the fact that he has three finals appearances.]
re: 75%... Can you really say that we don't have better/more talent than MORE than 75% of the teams we play? And, don't leave out the non-conference/pre-conference schedule. With the Dome as a major recruiting factor, what percentage of games would you expect we should win with a 'replacement level' coach? I'm playing devil's advocate here. Seriously. If this were baseball, and you were evaluating the coach in terms of WAR, how many wins is JB worth over the course of a season? Don't cherrypick this season. Take the last 15 years, and plug in an 'average coach' with the same players. Last year, i think i figured that SU finished, an average of 4th in the conference over those 15 years. Objectively, what's JB worth?


I'm not a Boeheim fan but I'm not going to say he's a bad coach, that's just totally ridiculous. Actually, in November and December, I'd rather have him coaching SU than any other coach in college basketball - he's the best there is in those months.

Now March, that's a different story. 5 times past the Sweet 16 in 36 years isn't nearly as good as the other top coaches but this thread isn't about being great, it's about being good and you can't deny he is at least that.
 
Its not the coach its college ball as a whole.

IMO...
M2M gets alot better as the year goes on. Zone gets better to, but never starts the first few months as blatlantly raw as M2M does.
Teams become more patient and effient against the zone as the year goes on, but in the same way they become more patient and efficient all together.
That why there is a perception thatwe tend to have rough time in march.


Offense is our downfall as much as defense in march.
 
My analysis of Boeheim is he's like the guy that gets last in the olympics. He deserves to be talked about in the same league as coach K, Izzo, Dean smith etc, but probably the worst out all of them. That being said if you get last in the olympics you're still in the d*** olympics.
 

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