Why Boeheim Is Not A Good Coach | Page 4 | Syracusefan.com

Why Boeheim Is Not A Good Coach

What do you mean you dont get where I am going with the NFL comparison?

Our football team has been average at best over the last 25 years and it has spit out much more NFL talent than our elite basketball team has produced nba talent.

self explanatory.
Your argument is as meaningful as me saying "Wake Forest's golf program has produced a ton of PGA tour players, but their basketball program hasn't produced nearly the same number of NBA players."
 
Solid point. I agree on the offensive freedom point. Defensively, I disagree saying Syracuse gets to "sit back and rest" on defense. That zone is aggressive, requires a lot of movement, and is not simply a "sit back and rest" type of defense. I understand the stereotype with the zone, and Syraucse has certainly had their share of lazy defenders. But anyone who watches the zone regularly wouldn't say that.
I think the change in the zone over the last three years gets missed a lot. It seemed like the function of the defense changed in that year. Prior to that the zone did seem to provide rest for the star players to expend on offense. The players often seemed to go through the motions - resting and waiting to get on O. Flynn and Harris even complained about it, they didn't buy into it, in part because they were not very good at it.

Then in '09-'10 the team thoughts of the SU zone seemed to change. Rautins seemed to love it. He was a much better zone defender than man. His enthusiasm seemed contagious. There was a marked increase in the zones intensity. They have kept that intensity since that season. This past season showed how beneficial a big athlete can be in the middle. JB has started to take out players who don't go full bore on the defensive end, this helps to maintain the intensity. The D has been markedly better the last three years.

Next year, if NN comes, NN with BT and MCW would be real trouble for opposing Os. That is why I could see DC2 playing PF. He would be the weak link in an otherwise just nasty defense, and then DC2 would own the defensive boards. If NN comes as advertised there is a chance that next year could be SU's nastiest D ever.
 
I don't mock YouTube, I LOVE YouTube. I am a YouTube addict. But this guy is not a household name in coaching, from what I can tell he isn't earning a living based on his "expertise."

I hear you and don't disagree with any of that. I normally like rooting for underdogs and youtube can help them. Too bad this guy got his exposure by badmouthing JB. Someone should email him a link to this site and let him try to make his argument on here :D
 
Sure, but that's not this guy's premise. Everyone you just named was a McDonald's All-American. The expectation is they'd be more than contributors. Hakim Warrick has had a solid career so far and was ranked around 90 coming out of highschool. Jason Hart and Etan Thomas have both had around 10 year careers and weren't superstars coming out of highschool. My point is anytime someone compiles a list of the greatest college coaches, K is at the top. If you're the best (according to this guy) then you should be producing the best pros. Am I saying JB is K's equal? No. But that doesn't mean he's bad either. He's one of the best in the game and anyone who knows basketball understands that.
Well said. And all of your Cuse examples were 4 year players. That is student-athletes succeeding in college first and then the pros. Really speaks to development over that time that they were able to make a pro impact. I think JB needs to be given credit for recruiting that way, looking for guys who are good citizens and expected to be around for the duration so that you end up over time with a blend of new blood and experienced system guys each year. Not that he wouldn't take more one and doners, but there is a long line of solid 4 year guys who had great college careers, despite whatever they do (or don't do) in the pros.
 
Steve Fisher has a NC. Gary Williams has one. Sometimes stuff happens. [I'm less impressed that JB has a NC than with the fact that he has three finals appearances.]
re: 75%... Can you really say that we don't have better/more talent than MORE than 75% of the teams we play? And, don't leave out the non-conference/pre-conference schedule. With the Dome as a major recruiting factor, what percentage of games would you expect we should win with a 'replacement level' coach? I'm playing devil's advocate here. Seriously. If this were baseball, and you were evaluating the coach in terms of WAR, how many wins is JB worth over the course of a season? Don't cherrypick this season. Take the last 15 years, and plug in an 'average coach' with the same players. Last year, i think i figured that SU finished, an average of 4th in the conference over those 15 years. Objectively, what's JB worth?

I'd like to flip Hubert Davis' "I'm not a big stat guy but..." commentary upside down...
Because I am a big sabermetrics/pomeroy/stat guy and I would say JB in game is worth about as much as Mack Brown or Les Miles in football, which is about nothing.
And so what? Coaching in college is all about recruiting. It's no secret that a lot of the big name coaches in CBB are clueless. I don't understand why people pretend like coaching is more important. The fact that you also disaparage Gary Williams who happened to be a terrific coach and poor recruiter doesn't make any sense whatsoever given the rest of your post.
 
Because I am a big sabermetrics/pomeroy/stat guy and I would say JB in game is worth about as much as Mack Brown or Les Miles in football, which is about nothing.
I would like to see those numbers, as compared to the other coaches referenced as gr8. Using Sabermetrics as you know in baseball would indicate Jeter is one of the worst SS in MLB, so they are not indisputable criteria either.
 
Its hard to argue on his SU in the NBA take though. Maybe just coincidence?

Considering how Boeheim and Syracuse reside in the upper pantheon of respect on the college level, it is striking how so few players have ever had a meaningful impact in the NBA. Let’s look at the notables:

CARMELO ANTHONY
Currently in the headlines for causing havoc in both Denver and New York, Melo has never shown the ability nor the desire to play man to man defense. He’s never displayed a positional understanding of weakside help, nor has he been able to blend himself into a team offense. The last time he truly fit in was with Boeheim at Syracuse, where their offense expects one on one play.
Career: 24.5ppg, 6.3rpg, 3.1apg, 1.1spg, 46% FG

DERRICK COLEMAN
He is the poster child for great athlete who never knew how to play the game. Bouncing from team to team for 15 years, he showed just enough promise to make another team want to trade for him, but weighing them down once he arrived.
Career: 16.5ppg, 9.3rpg, 2.5apg,1.3bpg 45% FG

SHERMAN DOUGLAS
“The General” also never fulfilled the promise of alley oop dimes he displayed so prominently while with the Orangemen. Never one to be in great shape, he was always a step slow, yet stuck around for 12 mediocre years, playing his best ball on some pretty lousy teams;
Career: 11ppg, 2.2rpg, 5.9apg, 48% FG

BILLY OWENS
There is definitely a theme emerging here, as Owens also lacked defensive instincts, offensive fundamentals, and never achieved anywhere close to the promise he showed in college. His weight fluctuated and was never dedicated to maintaining his athletic physique.
Career: 11.7ppg, 6.7rpg, 2.8apg, 48% FG

RONY SEIKALY
The best pro of any of the Orangemen Boeheim has coached, he benefited from being from a different country, I’m sure bringing his work ethic with him from Lebanon. His post game was polished, but I’d argue he did a lot of that polishing after he got to the NBA. He starred for some pretty awful Miami Heat teams in the early 90′s, before bouncing around the league.
Career: 14.7ppg, 9.5rpg, 1.3apg, 1.3bpg, 48% FG

ETAN THOMAS
A journeyman who started only 74 NBA games in 9 seasons, he was woefully underskilled on the offensive end, but used hustle and desire to be a bit of a defensive presence. His main forte was grabbing rebounds, not helping on the weakside.
Career: 5.7ppg, 4.7rpg, 1bpg, 51% FG 17 mins/gm

JOHN WALLACE
Coming out of college as a dominant player, averaging 22.2 points per game and 8.7 rebounds, he had the body and the numbers to merit the 18th pick in the 1996 NBA Draft. The Knicks liked him so much, they traded him after one year to get Chris Dudley, who was at the end of a very undistinguished career. Never able to fit in, he lasted just 7 seasons.
Career: 7.6ppg, 2.8rpg, 46% FG 16 mins/gm

HAKIM WARRICK
This is enough to make it seem like Boeheim is just producing clones. Another promising player who had 4 years of “tutelage” from Boeheim, he had a dominant career in college only to realize he had no idea how to defend at the NBA level, not find a good fit on the offensive end with his limited skill set. His best years were on some of the worst teams of all time in Memphis, yet he’s still toiling away for a mediocre Phoenix team, getting 14 minutes/game.
Career: 9.6ppg, 4.1rpg, 50% FG

There are other names scattered about that merely had cups of coffee in the NBA, guys like Dwayne “The Pearl” Washington, and out of this world athlete Stephen Thompson who, in four years at Syracuse, never learned anything besides catching alley oops and slamming them home.
Two current youngsters in the NBA seem to be reliving this exact same nightmare: Jonny Flynn and Wesley Johnson. Flynn only played 2 years at Syracuse, so really got to learn nothing from Beoheim, and has already played for 3 teams in 3 years, shooting himself off the floor with a career 40 percent field goal percentage. And Wesley Johnson has already been declared a bust – a typical Boeheim elite athlete that never learned the skills necessary to compete at the NBA level.

The purpose of many college programs is not to build NBA players, but given the fact that Boeheim has been around for so long, and that the perception is that he’s a very good coach, wouldn’t you think his players would have a little bit more success in the NBA? Don’t you think at least one would rise to the level of perennial All Star? After breaking down this game, it makes me wonder what is happening at Syracuse during practices? (Insert inappropriate Bernie Fine joke HERE) His program is clearly not designed to help his players excel in the NBA, since they have no practical experience playing man to man defense, nor do they know how to exist in an offense that requires any kind of sustained movement. This is how I judge a coach – how well he teaches the game of basketball and how well his players execute those skills. In this regard, Boeheim has failed and makes me wonder just how long he’ll remain the ringmaster at Syracuse.


This guy obviously doesn't know what he is talking about. Looks like he got Sherman Douglas mixed up with the Pearl. Pearl was the one that was out of shape and mediocre in the NBA. Sherman Douglas got everything he could have and had a solid NBA career considering no one expected him to. And Seikaly wasn't a hard worker. He was known for being lazy. I read an article wher he admitted that he didn't care if he made the playoffs in the NBA because you played more games but got paid the same. Stevie Thompson didn't make the NBA because he couldn't shoot worth a dink. Everybody knows that and thats something you can teach in college.
 
Solid point. I agree on the offensive freedom point. Defensively, I disagree saying Syracuse gets to "sit back and rest" on defense. That zone is aggressive, requires a lot of movement, and is not simply a "sit back and rest" type of defense. I understand the stereotype with the zone, and Syraucse has certainly had their share of lazy defenders. But anyone who watches the zone regularly wouldn't say that.

I'm not saying Syracuse doesn't play a great zone. I love the zone. But...many times you will hear coaches of other teams saying they went to zone for 5 minutes to give their guys a rest. I would say in general...it requires much less physical exertion and much more standing than m2m, not even close.
 
Based on where they were drafted..the only "value" NBA player from SU was Jason Hart. Melo has pretty much lived up to his pick. I don't think you can say the same of the others.

Coleman was pretty solid, but not what anyone expected from the #1 pick. For a guy that made his bones in the paint, he started settling for way too many jumpers in the league. He got a bit lazy.
 
This guy obviously doesn't know what he is talking about. Looks like he got Sherman Douglas mixed up with the Pearl. Pearl was the one that was out of shape and mediocre in the NBA. Sherman Douglas got everything he could have and had a solid NBA career considering no one expected him to. And Seikaly wasn't a hard worker. He was known for being lazy. I read an article wher he admitted that he didn't care if he made the playoffs in the NBA because you played more games but got paid the same. Stevie Thompson didn't make the NBA because he couldn't shoot worth a dink. Everybody knows that and thats something you can teach in college.

My personal favorite line is John Wallace "had the body and #'s to merit the #18 pick in the draft".

So did these guys apparently, who are the #18 picks since 1997:


Chris Anstey
Mirsad Turkcan
James Posey
Quentin Richardson
Jason Collins
Curtis Borchardt
David West
J.R. Smith
Gerald Green
Oleksiy Percherov
Marco Belinelli
JaVale McGee
Ty Lawson
Eric Bledsoe
Chris Singleton
 
I'm not saying Syracuse doesn't play a great zone. I love the zone. But...many times you will hear coaches of other teams saying they went to zone for 5 minutes to give their guys a rest. I would say in general...it requires much less physical exertion and much more standing than m2m, not even close.
I could get on board with that. The difference is, the coaches that turn to zone to give their guys a rest play the more passive, stand around type of zone. I don't think the Syracuse zone is as exhausting as man, but is much more so than any other zone.
 
I think the change in the zone over the last three years gets missed a lot. It seemed like the function of the defense changed in that year. Prior to that the zone did seem to provide rest for the star players to expend on offense. The players often seemed to go through the motions - resting and waiting to get on O. Flynn and Harris even complained about it, they didn't buy into it, in part because they were not very good at it.

Then in '09-'10 the team thoughts of the SU zone seemed to change. Rautins seemed to love it. He was a much better zone defender than man. His enthusiasm seemed contagious. There was a marked increase in the zones intensity. They have kept that intensity since that season. This past season showed how beneficial a big athlete can be in the middle. JB has started to take out players who don't go full bore on the defensive end, this helps to maintain the intensity. The D has been markedly better the last three years.

Next year, if NN comes, NN with BT and MCW would be real trouble for opposing Os. That is why I could see DC2 playing PF. He would be the weak link in an otherwise just nasty defense, and then DC2 would own the defensive boards. If NN comes as advertised there is a chance that next year could be SU's nastiest D ever.

Agreed. From 1996 to 2009, there's no doubt that we had our fair share of players who used defense as "rest time." Rautins and company really changed that. Some of our wings (Southerland excepted) still are somewhat inactive, and Scoop stopped going 100% on defense once the rotation got shortened this year, but it's hard to watch our zone and say that our players use it as an opportunity to rest.

Like you, I hope that continues. The defensive "want to" on the past three teams has been admirable (and a welcome change from the teams that preceded it). As for Coleman at the 4...I have a hard time seeing that. Too big; not enough lateral quickness.
 
You're kidding, right? Terrible example.

That was Bill Frieder's team. Frieder announced that he would be coaching at Arizona State the following year and was fired by Michigan on the eve of the tournament.

That would be akin to JAB getting canned right before the 2003 tournament and 6-year assistant Mike Hopkins being named interim coach for the tourney.

The point is that NCs are not necessarily the best measure of a coach. If you read the rest of the post, you'd see that i noted JB's 3 finals appearances were more impressive to me than the one win. When people talk about who's a 'winner' and who isn't, and they cite "championships," you have to ask yourself who you'd want: Trent Dilfer or Dan Marino. Luc Longley or Patrick Ewing. Stacy King or Charles Barkley. We won in 2003 because we had the best player in college basketball, and went on a run in March. Not because we were the best team. We weren't even the best team in the Big East in 2003.
 
Its not the coach its college ball as a whole.

IMO...
M2M gets alot better as the year goes on. Zone gets better to, but never starts the first few months as blatlantly raw as M2M does.
Teams become more patient and effient against the zone as the year goes on, but in the same way they become more patient and efficient all together.
That why there is a perception thatwe tend to have rough time in march.


Offense is our downfall as much as defense in march.

So true.
 
What would you expect from another average coach at SU over the past 30 years?
 
take away his agenda and what are his 2 main points?
1. he hates the 2-3 100% of the time
2. our 1/2 court offense SUCKS

who disagrees?

i'm waiting......

JB is what he is and i LOVE him - but everyone on this board agrees with those 2 points... at least during every game in which we dont win by 40.

I couldn't agree more, especially #2. I too love JB but our offense is painful when a team slows us down and we can't run the floor. IMO its the biggest reason we struggle in the tourney because everybody's plan is just to limit our fast break opportunities. At the same time, to say he isn't a good coach is absurd. I could understand if he was making the case that he wasn't a GREAT coach tho.
 
Huh?? Guess you miss the point. He talks like he KNOWS how a 2-3 zone should be played vs a guy who is a D1 coach AND noted as one of the best at teaching it. I'd like to know his credentials on how a 2-3 zone is suppose to be played.

I'll explain the point:
I'm not making this guy's argument. I don't necessarily ascribe to it. But, you seem to be indicating his argument is moot BECAUSE he's not a coach. Doesn't matter whether he's right or wrong - neither of which can actually be proven... You also seem to be asserting that JB, by virtue of experience and acclaim, is infallible and beyond reproach, since no one else has the 'qualifications' to debate the choices he makes.

Breaking away from the particulars of this fellow's rant... the objective discussion might be this:
JB is the coach, with a particular and particularly immovable 'system.' That system has certain results attributed to it. But, are those results commensurate with reasonable expectations, or do they exceed them? Simply, does SU win +/- the number of games (over time) versus its talent level in contrast with the collective opponents?
 
Agreed. From 1996 to 2009, there's no doubt that we had our fair share of players who used defense as "rest time." Rautins and company really changed that. Some of our wings (Southerland excepted) still are somewhat inactive, and Scoop stopped going 100% on defense once the rotation got shortened this year, but it's hard to watch our zone and say that our players use it as an opportunity to rest.

Like you, I hope that continues. The defensive "want to" on the past three teams has been admirable (and a welcome change from the teams that preceded it). As for Coleman at the 4...I have a hard time seeing that. Too big; not enough lateral quickness.
I thought the same thing with Scoop, that he started to selectively play defense, took some time off, later in the season. I thought KJo while putting in decent effort, routinely made bad decisions late in the year, from the Cincy debacle onwards pretty much. Whereas I remember heady plays out of CJ.

I'm not sure what will happen with DC2. I just saw what a difference Fab made defensively and have a hard time moving that type of presence in NN out to a wing. Big deal, you have a good defensive wing, the team just goes to the other side. Wes was an athletic freak but he was no where near being BE Defensive Player of the Year. It just seems like for the middle you would have an AO type presence in the middle with DC2, or a Fab-like presence with Noel. And add to that, you try to make DC2 give you the RJ wing performance from two years ago. That's what I would like to see.
 
Doesn't the fact that Syracuse players don't have very much NBA success mean Boeheim IS a great coach? I mean, if he has guys that under his coaching look like NBA players, then without his coaching can't play with NBA guys, it means he's getting the most or more out of them than they're capable. And winning at the major D-1 level with players that aren't really big time NBA guys. To me, it speaks to Boeheim's credit that he's had so much success.
I say you are right. There is a guy in Rochester, an ex college player who claims that JB is NOT a good coach because he dosen't perpare his players for the pros. He uses much of the same arguements. He says it's JB's job to prepare them to be pros. First of all since SU does not get the McD's AA other schools get, the quality of the players he gets means he can't prepare them to be pro because they aren't talented enough. If he prepares 1 or 2, how does that help the others as a team to win. If he spends his time preparing certain players and his team doesn't win, how long will he coach. JB's job is to win games for SU
 
I'd like to flip Hubert Davis' "I'm not a big stat guy but..." commentary upside down...
Because I am a big sabermetrics/pomeroy/stat guy and I would say JB in game is worth about as much as Mack Brown or Les Miles in football, which is about nothing.
And so what? Coaching in college is all about recruiting. It's no secret that a lot of the big name coaches in CBB are clueless. I don't understand why people pretend like coaching is more important. The fact that you also disaparage Gary Williams who happened to be a terrific coach and poor recruiter doesn't make any sense whatsoever given the rest of your post.

You can stand up and criticize JB on almost anything and find some deranged soal to agree with you. The one critique that won't fly is his in game coaching. He is the master when it comes to adjustments (both on O andD) in the heat of play. His set plays out of time outs cannot be beat.
 
I couldn't agree more, especially #2. I too love JB but our offense is painful when a team slows us down and we can't run the floor. IMO its the biggest reason we struggle in the tourney because everybody's plan is just to limit our fast break opportunities. At the same time, to say he isn't a good coach is absurd. I could understand if he was making the case that he wasn't a GREAT coach tho.
You seem to be taking this year and applying it to all years though.
Yes, this year was different to the normal good teams JB produces - there was no low post scorer and no designated sharpshooter. It was why so many were nervous every game. If we could see it, you could bet every decent coach in America could. Limit transition, slow the game down, and pack the paint. SU winning the game on the defensive end, time after time, was hard to trust. Some seem to still harbor the post season stress of that style.

But in other years, JB has a much more structured offense. He loves a low post presence, from DC, to Wallace, to Hakeem, to AO, to RJ - just two years ago. He usually has a sharpshooter from Monroe, to GMac, to Rautins. We will be back to that soon enough with DC2 and Cooney.
 
I thought the same thing with Scoop, that he started to selectively play defense, took some time off, later in the season. I thought KJo while putting in decent effort, routinely made bad decisions late in the year, from the Cincy debacle onwards pretty much. Whereas I remember heady plays out of CJ.

I'm not sure what will happen with DC2. I just saw what a difference Fab made defensively and have a hard time moving that type of presence in NN out to a wing. Big deal, you have a good defensive wing, the team just goes to the other side. Wes was an athletic freak but he was no where near being BE Defensive Player of the Year. It just seems like for the middle you would have an AO type presence in the middle with DC2, or a Fab-like presence with Noel. And add to that, you try to make DC2 give you the RJ wing performance from two years ago. That's what I would like to see.

Yeah, that Ricky stepped in for Ongenaet and defended the wing for the better part of three seasons was quite impressive. If he could do it, almost anyone can. He was a husky and immobile freshman.
 
I say you are right. There is a guy in Rochester, an ex college player who claims that JB is NOT a good coach because he dosen't perpare his players for the pros. He uses much of the same arguements. He says it's JB's job to prepare them to be pros. First of all since SU does not get the McD's AA other schools get, the quality of the players he gets means he can't prepare them to be pro because they aren't talented enough. If he prepares 1 or 2, how does that help the others as a team to win. If he spends his time preparing certain players and his team doesn't win, how long will he coach. JB's job is to win games for SU
And I disagree his job is get players ready for the pros. His job is to win games at SU, and make the players better than when they got here. He does that extremely well.
 
I'll explain the point:
I'm not making this guy's argument. I don't necessarily ascribe to it. But, you seem to be indicating his argument is moot BECAUSE he's not a coach. Doesn't matter whether he's right or wrong - neither of which can actually be proven... You also seem to be asserting that JB, by virtue of experience and acclaim, is infallible and beyond reproach, since no one else has the 'qualifications' to debate the choices he makes.

Yea, that's what I said and was my point.
 

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