Why Boeheim Is Not A Good Coach

[moqui]

It bears repeating--this was an embarrassingly bad, misinformed, dopey assessment.

I think the funniest part was his conclusion:

In this regard, Boeheim has failed and makes me wonder just how long he’ll remain the ringmaster at Syracuse.

Way to go out on a limb, MMMM, predicting that a man who will be 68 this year and has mused publicly about retiring, might not be around for much longer.

additionally, he is completely off base on Wes Johnson. He has been a disappointment, to be sure, but he is definitely not a bust. Rick Adelman loves his activity and his potential defensively, that's why he starts him every single game. After suffering through a long slump through the first half of the season, his jumper is more effective now - he is shooting .397 from three over the last 20 games. It is far too early to close the books on Wes, especially when Adelman is so determined to keep giving him reps. Once upon a time, Donte Greene was considered a bust as well, but look at him now - he is going to get a 2nd NBA contract, and that is my definition of a legit NBA player

Young players need reps in order to develop. Donte has gotten enough now that he has turned the corner and become a solid NBA bench player with potential to develop even more. Wes only played one season with the Orange; his previous two years were an injury-effected soph season at ISU and sitting out a transfer year. This is just his 2nd year in the pros, on a very young team trying to find its way. I'm betting he, too, will see a 2nd contract.

 

[rrlbees]

I'm not saying Syracuse doesn't play a great zone. I love the zone. But...many times you will hear coaches of other teams saying they went to zone for 5 minutes to give their guys a rest. I would say in general...it requires much less physical exertion and much more standing than m2m, not even close.

It is not a rest period. Not SU's zone. If anyone rests, they get pulled. There is constant movement sliding and/or trapping or getting out on a shooter.

 

[CusefanATL]

Your argument is as meaningful as me saying "Wake Forest's golf program has produced a ton of PGA tour players, but their basketball program hasn't produced nearly the same number of NBA players."

but wake forest has nothing to do with syracuse. I used our football team just to show that average and bad teams can produce pro's. Our football team is something we could all relate to, obviously more than you can relate to duke basketball alums.

duke has excellent nba all star players. syracuse simply cant compare. and if you disagree with that, we dont need to continue this debate. saying duke players underachieve (especially when comparing to syracuse alums) in the nba is lazy and dead wrong.

 

[HOFCeluck]

The point is that NCs are not necessarily the best measure of a coach. If you read the rest of the post, you'd see that i noted JB's 3 finals appearances were more impressive to me than the one win. When people talk about who's a 'winner' and who isn't, and they cite "championships," you have to ask yourself who you'd want: Trent Dilfer or Dan Marino. Luc Longley or Patrick Ewing. Stacy King or Charles Barkley. We won in 2003 because we had the best player in college basketball, and went on a run in March. Not because we were the best team. We weren't even the best team in the Big East in 2003.

The fact that you used Gary Williams as an example totally undies your point. He rebuilt The Maryland program and is probably a future HOFer.

 

[thebigeast44]

CusefanATL - you do realize that football teams have 70 more players on their roster than basketball teams? So your comparison between the two and how many pros they produce simply does not work. Even mediocre football teams are going to produce pros over time with that kind of numerical difference.

And comparing the number of NBA players from Duke vs Syracuse without also stating that Duke has had nearly 4 times as many McDonald's AA leaves out a big part of the story. A better comparison would be to one of the other near elite teams that have recruited a similar number of McDonald's AA.

JB has done one hell of a job with the amount of talent he has had at Syracuse. I'm happy when his players do well in the pros. But ultimately I'm more concerned with how his players perform at Syracuse. Pearl Washington built the Carrier Dome and the fact that he flamed out after 3 years in the NBA does not change the wonderful memories I have of him.

The majority of JB's players have shown improvement over their years on the hill. Their ultimate success at the next level depended on their talent level and attitude. It's difficult to change one's attitude as it's part and parcel of one's personality. So for a Jason Hart, his skill level was not on par with a John Wallace but his desire to play hard nosed defense enabled him to build a nice little NBA career for himself.

You could go through all the players mentioned in this thread and discuss why they succeeded or failed. But the fact of the matter is JB got them to perform at a high level in college leading them to be drafted into the NBA. Should the discussion not be more about the potential failures of the various NBA coaches who did not get them to play at a level expected of them - or on the players themselves?

JB's program is what it is - a very successful near elite college basketball program. If you want to cheer on a program with a consistent number of future pros, go cheer on Kentucky, Duke, North Carolina or Kansas. I'll be here cheering on my Orangemen.

Let's Go Orange!

 

[br801]

CusefanATL - you do realize that football teams have 70 more players on their roster than basketball teams? So your comparison between the two and how many pros they produce simply does not work. Even mediocre football teams are going to produce pros over time with that kind of numerical difference.

And comparing the number of NBA players from Duke vs Syracuse without also stating that Duke has had nearly 4 times as many McDonald's AA leaves out a big part of the story. A better comparison would be to one of the other near elite teams that have recruited a similar number of McDonald's AA.

JB has done one hell of a job with the amount of talent he has had at Syracuse. I'm happy when his players do well in the pros. But ultimately I'm more concerned with how his players perform at Syracuse. Pearl Washington built the Carrier Dome and the fact that he flamed out after 3 years in the NBA does not change the wonderful memories I have of him.

The majority of JB's players have shown improvement over their years on the hill. Their ultimate success at the next level depended on their talent level and attitude. It's difficult to change one's attitude as it's part and parcel of one's personality. So for a Jason Hart, his skill level was not on par with a John Wallace but his desire to play hard nosed defense enabled him to build a nice little NBA career for himself.

You could go through all the players mentioned in this thread and discuss why they succeeded or failed. But the fact of the matter is JB got them to perform at a high level in college leading them to be drafted into the NBA. Should the discussion not be more about the potential failures of the various NBA coaches who did not get them to play at a level expected of them - or on the players themselves?

JB's program is what it is - a very successful near elite college basketball program. If you want to cheer on a program with a consistent number of future pros, go cheer on Kentucky, Duke, North Carolina or Kansas. I'll be here cheering on my Orangemen.

Let's Go Orange!

That is easily the best post I've seen on this topic. Outstanding. Thank you.

 

[OttoMets]

It is not a rest period. Not SU's zone. If anyone rests, they get pulled. There is constant movement sliding and/or trapping or getting out on a shooter.

Might be a bit of an overstatement. If anyone knows that that's not always the case, it's you - you've been saying for two months that Scoop doesn't play any defense.

 

[mikekan14]

An excerpt from
Upset-proofing the 'Cuse

Can't hit free throws. Can't board. The Orange have heard it all.

March 12, 2012
http://insider.espn.go.com/mens-col...-upset-proofing-syracuse-orange-espn-magazine

The Orange don't have enough pro talent.
Would you believe that only five former Syracuse players are in the NBA? And of that quintet, only Anthony averages more than 22 minutes per game. Compare that with Duke (16 NBA players), Kentucky (15), UCLA (15), UNC (13), Kansas (12), UConn (10) -- you get the point -- and it's clear there's been a talent gap between Syracuse and its hardwood peers.


Recruiting is part of the problem. Syracuse has landed only 16 McDonald's All-Americans during Boeheim's tenure, and the challenges range from icy winters to that pesky zone again. Rockets point guard Jonny Flynn, who played two seasons at Syracuse, confirms that schools negatively recruited against Syracuse by telling him he wouldn't develop pro defensive skills in the 2-3. But, Flynn says with a laugh, "Who actually plays defense in the NBA anyway?"


Boeheim acknowledges some truth behind the axiom that championship teams need at least two or three NBA-caliber players but says that's no longer the case. Recent champs like Duke and UConn support his point. But more talent is always a good thing, and on that front, this Syracuse squad is several steps ahead of its predecessors. The Orange have three McDonald's All-Americans in Melo and freshmen Michael Carter-Williams and Rakeem Christmas. ESPN draft expert Chad Ford thinks as many as five of Boeheim's players could be first-rounders, and at least two others -- Joseph and Triche -- could find their way into the league. One NBA executive is a bit more guarded, saying, "There's nobody who's no-brainer good." Which leads to a final weakness -- one that might point to the biggest difference between this team and any Boeheim has coached before.
-------------------------------------------------
Boeheim's done a lot with fewer elite recruits than most other schools with which we compare ourselves. As Flynn stated, some schools use our zone to negatively recruit against us but the article is saying that Boeheim's recruiting has improved recently in spite of it. It lags historically but is improving. I do think that the zone will ultimately hold us back from getting the elite recruits that are consumed with getting to the NBA. I personally think that's fine so long as we develop/mature our guys like Nichols, RJ, Rautins, etc. and I think Boeheim and his staff have shown they can do that, though I think Kris Joseph didn't develop much between Sophomore and Senior years. Does that limit our ceiling? ...Perhaps.

Boeheim's a good coach. It shouldn't be blasphemy to say that he's not the best coach. It's like admitting your wife isn't as hot as Scarlett Johansson. I'm not going to compare him to other coaches, it's a no-win proposition here. He's a good coach. I think the "olympics" analogy is a good one. We should celebrate a good season. As someone posted in elsewhere, we conquered a lot of demons this year (Pitt, L'ville, Sweet 16).

I hope Fair bulks up for next season. On to 2012-13.

 

[thebigeast44]

Just noticed that Coach Nick (the self-described guru who wrote the piece referenced in the original link) attended Wisconsin - now we know why he's so upset about JB!

Oh by the way Coach Nick - nice record you have at the high school you coach at: 13-18. Keep up the great work while JB is helping to coach the USA Basketball Olympic team this summer

 

[moqui]

Boeheim's a good coach. It shouldn't be blasphemy to say that he's not the best coach.

that is definitely true, it is not blasphemy to question him . . . but I think we also need to consider the vast amount of respect he gets from his peers, the guys who know how tough it is to win year in and year out at the upper reaches of the NBA. It's a tough racket, and it takes a very special talent just to stay in the game for parts of 5 decades, let alone excel at it. Look at what JB has accomplished year in and year out - when he began, he was the fastest ever to win 100 career games (that record has since been broken) . . . now, he has one of the best winning percentages of any coach past his 65th birthday (and maybe the best, if I was willing to take the time to compute it for everyone)

Look at some of these winning percentages by coaches after their 65th birthday:
Dean Smith, .769 (one final four)
Lute Olson, .740
Jim Calhoun, .731 (two final fours, one national title)
Bobby Knight, .588
Jim Boeheim, .819

no, it is not blasphemy to say that Jim Boeheim is not the best coach . . . but it's not foolish to make the claim, either. No less an authority than Jim Calhoun (whom I personally believe to be the best active coach) has said that he thinks JB is the best coach in the business.

 

[rrlbees]

Might be a bit of an overstatement. If anyone knows that that's not always the case, it's you - you've been saying for two months that Scoop doesn't play any defense.

OK, I'll reword it. When JB wants to pull someone, he uses their effort on defense as the reason usually.

 

[armory]

I don't know who this guy is, what his past is, or where his beef comes from ... but this is the only post in this authors history that discusses college basketball...the single solitary only mention of college hoops.

79 articles about the NBA ... 1 article bashing Boeheim.

'Coach Nick', your agenda is showing.

(edit: He was a student and team manager at Wisconsin ... the last team SU beat? That's my best guess.
Or because he is a self proclaimed "triangle offense guru". Smells like another pompous bball pundit who thinks he has the zone all figured out and thinks everyone else is just too stupid.)

"Coach Nick has built the most popular online channel devoted to the fundamentals of basketball. By breaking down NBA games with freeze frames, arrows, and slow motion, he has tapped into a void of knowledge most fans seek."

Watch out people! This guy has arrows!

 

[OttoMets]

OK, I'll reword it. When JB wants to pull someone, he uses their effort on defense as the reason usually.

Absolutely. There are pretty much three things that can get a guy pulled. In order of frequency: 1.) defense; 2.) getting fewer rebounds than a dead guy can; and 3.) being a center and taking a 19-footer with 32 seconds on the shot clock in a 2-on-4 situation.

 

[NKR1978]

Absolutely. There are pretty much three things that can get a guy pulled. In order of frequency: 1.) defense; 2.) getting fewer rebounds than a dead guy can; and 3.) being a center and taking a 19-footer with 32 seconds on the shot clock in a 2-on-4 situation.

That's the truest thing that has ever been written on this board.

 

[Col. Bleep]

But those guys all did pretty damn well at SU didn't they? And that's all that mattes because JB coaches SU.

I completely agree. Great college players and a lot of wins. But not great pros.