Why can't SU recruit guards who can shoot?

[rrlbees]

Cooney revisionist history?

Yes revisionist history. I'm sure 79 is referencing revisionist history as it relates to the OP which was the topic some of us were discussing until others chose to take it in another direction and start repeating things they've already said in other multiple threads.

 

[orange79]

Yes revisionist history. I'm sure 79 is referencing revisionist history as it relates to the OP which was the topic some of us were discussing until others chose to take it in another direction and start repeating things they've already said in other multiple threads.

Bingo

 

[SWC75]

You must have been reading another board because Andy was a lightning rod figure on here until his senior season.

That "Andy Rautins is a waste of a scholarship" thread was one of the longest we've ever had here.

 

[cuseinseattle]

SU's insistence on recruiting guards who can't shoot makes everything hinge on finding an all American small forward who can. I'm so tired of it.

Find short players who can shoot already, not that difficult

We need big guards for the top of the zone. I feel like we do recruit good shooters. Silent G is shooting like 50%. Malachi is a shooter and is just a freshman. Tyus Battle is a good shooter. Cooney was recruited as a shooter and his issue is being athletic and getting his shot off but I don't think he is bad as shooting.

 

[Alsacs]

Yes revisionist history. I'm sure 79 is referencing revisionist history as it relates to the OP which was the topic some of us were discussing until others chose to take it in another direction and start repeating things they've already said in other multiple threads.

You are good you are really good if people don't look for it.
I have never seen a player or coach or anybody defended as vigorously as you defend Trevor Cooney.

99.9% of people like him. I personally like him and hate criticizing college athletes. Cooney for 3 years has been treated like he is only one capable of playing and gets superstar minutes. 2 years ago Gbinije wasn't the same player he is now but he didn't get close to the minutes that Cooney got. These last 2 years G has improved, Cooney hasn't improved.

Cooney should play less he doesn't. That is it in a nutshell. Cooney gets criticism because this is year 3 of the same thing. You will continue defending him and will say the same in the other threads just like people will continue bitching about him.

Jim Boeheim has betrayed Cooney by not recruiting guards who can play or cutting back this kid's minutes. Cooney is not good enough to play 38.2 mpg. He is a solid player who should get the starters minutes and play 28-32 mpg. When his feet are set he is a good shooter. I hate the fact all the minutes he plays prevents other guards a chance to develop. Joseph can't play guard with Gbinije or Joseph/Howard can't get minutes together.
Cutting 8-12 mpg from Cooney wouldn't kill him one bit.

 

[RF2044]

That "Andy Rautins is a waste of a scholarship" thread was one of the longest we've ever had here.

It was also one of the dumbest threads in any iteration of this board. And after Novemember 2009, when it was posted, jambandjunki was never seen nor heard from again.

 

[br801]

You are good you are really good if people don't look for it.
I have never seen a player or coach or anybody defended as vigorously as you defend Trevor Cooney.

99.9% of people like him. I personally like him and hate criticizing college athletes. Cooney for 3 years has been treated like he is only one capable of playing and gets superstar minutes. 2 years ago Gbinije wasn't the same player he is now but he didn't get close to the minutes that Cooney got. These last 2 years G has improved, Cooney hasn't improved.

Cooney should play less he doesn't. That is it in a nutshell. Cooney gets criticism because this is year 3 of the same thing. You will continue defending him and will say the same in the other threads just like people will continue bitching about him.

Jim Boeheim has betrayed Cooney by not recruiting guards who can play or cutting back this kid's minutes. Cooney is not good enough to play 38.2 mpg. He is a solid player who should get the starters minutes and play 28-32 mpg. When his feet are set he is a good shooter. I hate the fact all the minutes he plays prevents other guards a chance to develop. Joseph can't play guard with Gbinije or Joseph/Howard can't get minutes together.
Cutting 8-12 mpg from Cooney wouldn't kill him one bit.

Seriously, I think we're all pretty clear that you feel Cooney plays too many minutes. Are you contractually obligated to make this point in excruciating detail in every thread?

 

[Alsacs]

Seriously, I think we're all pretty clear that you feel Cooney plays too many minutes. Are you contractually obligated to make this point in excruciating detail in every thread?

I am in a good mood today. So simple answer Yes. Your post really contributed. Have a nice day. My hottakes are no better than anyonelse's. If you find it annoying sorry but I find your post contributes nothing but try to make things personal between posters.

 

[rrlbees]

You are good you are really good if people don't look for it. I have never seen a player or coach or anybody defended as vigorously as you defend Trevor Cooney. 99.9% of people like him. I personally like him and hate criticizing college athletes. Cooney for 3 years has been treated like he is only one capable of playing and gets superstar minutes. 2 years ago Gbinije wasn't the same player he is now but he didn't get close to the minutes that Cooney got. These last 2 years G has improved, Cooney hasn't improved. Cooney should play less he doesn't. That is it in a nutshell. Cooney gets criticism because this is year 3 of the same thing. You will continue defending him and will say the same in the other threads just like people will continue bitching about him. Jim Boeheim has betrayed Cooney by not recruiting guards who can play or cutting back this kid's minutes. Cooney is not good enough to play 38.2 mpg. He is a solid player who should get the starters minutes and play 28-32 mpg. When his feet are set he is a good shooter. I hate the fact all the minutes he plays prevents other guards a chance to develop. Joseph can't play guard with Gbinije or Joseph/Howard can't get minutes together. Cutting 8-12 mpg from Cooney wouldn't kill him one bit.

What does any of that have to do with the OP or what 79 posted about revisionist history or my reply? Nothing. Nada. Zero. Congratulations.

 

[RoysRunts]

I was/am? a Cooney Fan since day one, Now I feel he has turned into Bigger Marius Janilus(he couldn't dribble or drive). That being said I totally agree with Alsacs He stays in the Game TOOOOO long(He's burnt out) and is a much better shooter when he squares up. Roy Danforth would have set picks for him
like he did for Jimmy Lee (That's on the Coach's) not the off balance running kind. What is worse is his FT % but that I believe also goes back to minutes played

 

[br801]

I am in a good mood today. So simple answer Yes. Your post really contributed. Have a nice day. My hottakes are no better than anyonelse's. If you find it annoying sorry but I find your post contributes nothing but try to make things personal between posters.

I'll do what I can to improve my posting efficiency but I can't make any promises.

 

[Cusefan0307]

I was/am? a Cooney Fan since day one, Now I feel he has turned into Bigger Marius Janilus(he couldn't dribble or drive). That being said I totally agree with Alsacs He stays in the Game TOOOOO long(He's burnt out) and is a much better shooter when he squares up. Roy Danforth would have set picks for him
like he did for Jimmy Lee (That's on the Coach's) not the off balance running kind. What is worse is his FT % but that I believe also goes back to minutes played

He's shooting 79.5 from the line. Not an issue.

 

[LennX6]

... (All. And yes, I mean all) college basketball teams would love to have a physical 6'4" SG who could get to the rim, pass, play D, and shoot like Triche did...

And one that got to a FF.

 

[SWC75]

I called into GMAC's show tonight, quoting some of the posts here and asked what our priorities in recruiting guards are and how much good shooting is the result of natural talent and how much is the result of coaching.

"We work hard in every aspect of shooting: the mechanical shot, getting game shots, the pick and rol, proper reads. We're not going to recruit guys because they can do jut one thing well. If a guy is 5-8 and can shoot, can he get his shot off? Can he help us in other ways. Michael Carter Williams shot 29% from three But look at everything else he did. He made plays for his teammates and took us to the Final Four. That team doesn't compare to this one at all in shooting ability but we stopped everyone. We look at Trevor Cooney, a 6-4 guy, a very strong athletes, fast off the screens. He shoots as well as any kid I've ever watched. A couple years ago he was shooting 48% after the first ten games. A lot of it is degree of difficulty. we will have some bad shooting nights. When Malachi went 0 for 11, we looked at the film and 7 of those shots were good looks. I'd bet if he got 7 good looks in a game, he'd make 4-5 of them, maybe 7 some nights. We need to eliminate the bad ones, like the fake right go left and fade away.Malachi had shot 1 for 23 from the three in our losses. He elevates his shoulders. Trevor fades to the left. Mike has the best form but he also shoots the most efficient shots. With different guys, it's different things. We're going to improve. it will take time. We're going to get better looks. This is a very talented shooting team."

The overall theme of his show was that he's most concerned with how we are playing defense, not how we are shooting.

 

[baggerbob]

Andy Rautins and Eric Devendorf made a couple 3-pointers back in the day, if memory serves me.

They both could pass, and did, plus drive and score, and stop, hit the mid-range jump shot. Trevor is still a one trick pony on offense, and he has been here 5 years. Sometimes he shows the ability to do all 3 things, but not often enough.

 

[Ghost]

I called into GMAC's show tonight, quoting some of the posts here and asked what our priorities in recruiting guards are and how much good shooting is the result of natural talent and how much is the result of coaching.

"We work hard in every aspect of shooting: the mechanical shot, getting game shots, the pick and rol, proper reads. We're not going to recruit guys because they can do jut one thing well. If a guy is 5-8 and can shoot, can he get his shot off? Can he help us in other ways. Michael Carter Williams shot 29% from three But look at everything else he did. He made plays for his teammates and took us to the Final Four. That team doesn't compare to this one at all in shooting ability but we stopped everyone. We look at Trevor Cooney, a 6-4 guy, a very strong athletes, fast off the screens. He shoots as well as any kid I've ever watched. A couple years ago he was shooting 48% after the first ten games. A lot of it is degree of difficulty. we will have some bad shooting nights. When Malachi went 0 for 11, we looked at the film and 7 of those shots were good looks. I'd bet if he got 7 good looks in a game, he'd make 4-5 of them, maybe 7 some nights. We need to eliminate the bad ones, like the fake right go left and fade away.Malachi had shot 1 for 23 from the three in our losses. He elevates his shoulders. Trevor fades to the left. Mike has the best form but he also shoots the most efficient shots. With different guys, it's different things. We're going to improve. it will take time. We're going to get better looks. This is a very talented shooting team."

The overall theme of his show was that he's most concerned with how we are playing defense, not how we are shooting.

I think I would do a happy-dance from Albany to Buffalo if he could duplicate that 48% again.

Cooney last 10 games of last year: 15/78 from 3: 19.2% (I mean, ouch)
Cooney first 10 games of this year: 23/73 from three: 31.5%

MCW is sort of the issue - we need guards with more versatility, so if the shot isn't falling, we can still afford to have them on the court. MCW's 3 only had to be just good enough to keep the defense honest though considering the other things he could do on offense.

At the end of the day, there is one constant on our worst 50 game stretch in JB's history (per some other thread) - very limited versatility from the guard spot. The position is too important in this era to have a specialist that isn't special at their specialty.

Hopefully Battle, Howard, etc...rectify that moving forward, and the recruiting of late seems geared to address that. Hopefully GMac is right, and they can improve, and TC can go for another extended hot streak at some point. If he can hit shots consistently at a decent clip we can still be quite dangerous. Or, I suppose, if DC or Lydon, or even Roberson, could grow to be a seven footer on Christmas day, that may help too!

Thanks for providing that, SWC! As always, appreciated!!

 

[Brooky03]

They both could pass, and did, plus drive and score, and stop, hit the mid-range jump shot. Trevor is still a one trick pony on offense, and he has been here 5 years. Sometimes he shows the ability to do all 3 things, but not often enough.

I don't disagree. I was responding to the topic that we don't get shooters.

 

[MikeSU02]

I called into GMAC's show tonight, quoting some of the posts here and asked what our priorities in recruiting guards are and how much good shooting is the result of natural talent and how much is the result of coaching.

"We work hard in every aspect of shooting: the mechanical shot, getting game shots, the pick and rol, proper reads. We're not going to recruit guys because they can do jut one thing well. If a guy is 5-8 and can shoot, can he get his shot off? Can he help us in other ways. Michael Carter Williams shot 29% from three But look at everything else he did. He made plays for his teammates and took us to the Final Four. That team doesn't compare to this one at all in shooting ability but we stopped everyone. We look at Trevor Cooney, a 6-4 guy, a very strong athletes, fast off the screens. He shoots as well as any kid I've ever watched. A couple years ago he was shooting 48% after the first ten games. A lot of it is degree of difficulty. we will have some bad shooting nights. When Malachi went 0 for 11, we looked at the film and 7 of those shots were good looks. I'd bet if he got 7 good looks in a game, he'd make 4-5 of them, maybe 7 some nights. We need to eliminate the bad ones, like the fake right go left and fade away.Malachi had shot 1 for 23 from the three in our losses. He elevates his shoulders. Trevor fades to the left. Mike has the best form but he also shoots the most efficient shots. With different guys, it's different things. We're going to improve. it will take time. We're going to get better looks. This is a very talented shooting team."

The overall theme of his show was that he's most concerned with how we are playing defense, not how we are shooting.

I really hope his answers are all coach speak or we are screwed.

 

[NineOneSeven]

I think I would do a happy-dance from Albany to Buffalo if he could duplicate that 48% again.

Cooney last 10 games of last year: 15/78 from 3: 19.2% (I mean, ouch)
Cooney first 10 games of this year: 23/73 from three: 31.5%

MCW is sort of the issue - we need guards with more versatility, so if the shot isn't falling, we can still afford to have them on the court. MCW's 3 only had to be just good enough to keep the defense honest though considering the other things he could do on offense.

At the end of the day, there is one constant on our worst 50 game stretch in JB's history (per some other thread) - very limited versatility from the guard spot. The position is too important in this era to have a specialist that isn't special at their specialty.

Hopefully Battle, Howard, etc...rectify that moving forward, and the recruiting of late seems geared to address that. Hopefully GMac is right, and they can improve, and TC can go for another extended hot streak at some point. If he can hit shots consistently at a decent clip we can still be quite dangerous. Or, I suppose, if DC or Lydon, or even Roberson, could grow to be a seven footer on Christmas day, that may help too!

Thanks for providing that, SWC! As always, appreciated!!

25% in last 20 games. From a shooting guard.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Cooney is going to play.

It's pretty clear the coaches have more confidence than the fans do.

I'm still going to root for him, because thats all you can do if he's going to play.

Makes me wonder how bad Joseph looks in practice though.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

I don't think anyone is really disputing what you are saying.

The OP suggested we don't recruit shooters. Which I believe is false. Cooney and Richardson were 4 and 5 star recruits who came in supposedly known for shooting. Both were wanted by schools who value shooting (Notre Dame, Indiana, etc).

For whatever reason Cooney has been inconsistent. He was better overall for the most part two years ago, and has seemed to regress over the past two years.

Richardson hasn't hit his stride yet, and I have questions how good of a shooter he really is because it's not like he's automatic from the line. I'm sure he will get better, but I'm not sure how much.

I think we have good coaches, but maybe they aren't great at coaching shooting compared to other skills.

I think you have a point with the free throw shooting, but we shouldn't get too concerned with that. Let's not forget that Silent G was shooting 46% from the charity stripe at one point in February last year. I think Mal is a good shooter. He will figure out the line just like Mike seems to have done this year.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

I called into GMAC's show tonight, quoting some of the posts here and asked what our priorities in recruiting guards are and how much good shooting is the result of natural talent and how much is the result of coaching.

"We work hard in every aspect of shooting: the mechanical shot, getting game shots, the pick and rol, proper reads. We're not going to recruit guys because they can do jut one thing well. If a guy is 5-8 and can shoot, can he get his shot off? Can he help us in other ways. Michael Carter Williams shot 29% from three But look at everything else he did. He made plays for his teammates and took us to the Final Four. That team doesn't compare to this one at all in shooting ability but we stopped everyone. We look at Trevor Cooney, a 6-4 guy, a very strong athletes, fast off the screens. He shoots as well as any kid I've ever watched. A couple years ago he was shooting 48% after the first ten games. A lot of it is degree of difficulty. we will have some bad shooting nights. When Malachi went 0 for 11, we looked at the film and 7 of those shots were good looks. I'd bet if he got 7 good looks in a game, he'd make 4-5 of them, maybe 7 some nights. We need to eliminate the bad ones, like the fake right go left and fade away.Malachi had shot 1 for 23 from the three in our losses. He elevates his shoulders. Trevor fades to the left. Mike has the best form but he also shoots the most efficient shots. With different guys, it's different things. We're going to improve. it will take time. We're going to get better looks. This is a very talented shooting team."

The overall theme of his show was that he's most concerned with how we are playing defense, not how we are shooting.

It's far more concerning for me that Cooney is still fading to the left in the early part of his 5th year on this team than Mal taking 4 bad shots out of 11. Much more.

I also find the comment about Cooney off the screens interesting. Maybe that speed is the problem. He's moving too quickly and does NOT have the ability to properly set his feet when taking the shot off the curl. Rautins was WAY better at that. Maybe because he was a little slower and more deliberate.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

I like the discussion in this thread. Very interesting.

I wonder if our guard's inability to shoot is on them or on the offense. Seems like the best shots from 3 these days result from passing into a big and then kick out to a guard. We just don't do that. Rak did a decent job at this last year from what I remember. Maybe posting Roberson lower (or DCII or Lydon - I really don't care) and feeding him the ball with instructions to find the open guy would help out?

 

[br801]

I think you have a point with the free throw shooting, but we shouldn't get too concerned with that. Let's not forget that Silent G was shooting 46% from the charity stripe at one point in February last year. I think Mal is a good shooter. He will figure out the line just like Mike seems to have done this year.

This won't be a popular opinion, but I think the historical hand-wringing about SU's free throw shooting is silly. A good college free throw shooting team will be at about 75%, and a crappy one at 65%. Assuming about 20 attempts per game per team, that works out to about a 2 point difference on average per game. One hustle play by the inferior free throw shooting team can make up for that.

What's critical to me is having a few guys who are capable of knocking down free throws in end game situations. This team has that in Cooney and Lydon (and possibly Gbinije).

 

[Cusefan0307]

It's far more concerning for me that Cooney is still fading to the left in the early part of his 5th year on this team than Mal taking 4 bad shots out of 11. Much more.

I also find the comment about Cooney off the screens interesting. Maybe that speed is the problem. He's moving too quickly and does NOT have the ability to properly set his feet when taking the shot off the curl. Rautins was WAY better at that. Maybe because he was a little slower and more deliberate.

Cooney shoots well off the catch. Mike is great off the catch. We should try to get more of those. I suppose we need more drive and kick if we can't post.

Richardson seems to be better when he dribbles. He's not that great off the catch at all. For whatever reason he needs to dribble to get in rhythm.

I think Lydon can shoot more shots and make more shots, but thats an aggressiveness issue. He defers to the other guys too much.