Why can't SU recruit guards who can shoot?

[RoatanCuse]

Since Mcnamara has been a full assistant coach, SU's guards have shot 33% from 3 point range and have shot 70% from the free throw line

Dukes guards have shot 39% from three and 79% from the free throw line.

Thanks Millhouse. These are telling stats. Not irrelevant by a long shot. The FB board just discussed this subject ad nauseaum. Is it coaching or recruiting?

 

[IthacaMatt]

That's fair but Cooney's high school competition was suspect, so I'm not sure we had proof he was a kid who could shoot. Malachi, on the other hand, was a proven high school shooter against legit competition.

He played on one of the very best AAU teams for at least 2 years before he was signed. And he held all sorts of Delaware state records, so it's not like he was just "good against mediocre competition".

 

[orange79]

He played on one of the very best AAU teams for at least 2 years before he was signed. And he held all sorts of Delaware state records, so it's not like he was just "good against mediocre competition".

Right. This thread is full of revisionist history.

 

[Cusefan0307]

That's fair but Cooney's high school competition was suspect, so I'm not sure we had proof he was a kid who could shoot. Malachi, on the other hand, was a proven high school shooter against legit competition.

Yeah, well how does that explain Roberson?

All we heard was how he "outplayed Towns in high school".

 

[NineOneSeven]

Yeah, well how does that explain Roberson?

All we heard was how he "outplayed Towns in high school".

Roberson's best games will be the games when our offense is clicking, aka making threes, and we are scoring a lot of points. This is when he'll simply be crashing the boards and getting put backs.

He also had a great game against Duke last year if I recall?

Roberson is the guy who needs the games where you can't even remember the baskets he made.

 

[Alsacs]

Right. This thread is full of revisionist history.

Cooney revisionist history? I don't think many people are questioning him being a D1 player. Nobody outside that 1 dude claimed that years ago. He is a starter who should be playing 28-32 MPG like starters do at pretty much every P5 school. Instead Cooney plays 37-38 MPG like he is a superstar and when you play superstar level minutes you get much more scrutiny.

JB betrays Cooney by playing 37-38 minutes each game. He isn't a superstar. If he played him less it would make him better and more fresh and it would give actual minutes to Kaleb Joseph or Frank Howard.

Those guys get no minutes unless G plays SF which is wrong. Cooney has undeserved tenure and has had it for 3 years now.

Again the kid should be the starter no doubt he should get starters minute each game and when he is hot play him 35 minutes but to just give him 37-38 minutes each game is just maddening.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Roberson's best games will be the games when our offense is clicking, aka making threes, and we are scoring a lot of points. This is when he'll simply be crashing the boards and getting put backs.

He also had a great game against Duke last year if I recall?

Roberson is the guy who needs the games where you can't even remember the baskets he made.

I'm not disputing that. The poster I quoted said Cooney didn't play quality competition in high school. He did. He's had good games against quality opponents in college as well, as has Roberson. They both are inconsistent players, that have differing responsibilities.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Cooney revisionist history? I don't think many people are questioning him being a D1 player. Nobody outside that 1 dude claimed that years ago. He is a starter who should be playing 28-32 MPG like starters do at pretty much every P5 school. Instead Cooney plays 37-38 MPG like he is a superstar and when you play superstar level minutes you get much more scrutiny.

JB betrays Cooney by playing 37-38 minutes each game. He isn't a superstar. If he played him less it would make him better and more fresh and it would give actual minutes to Kaleb Joseph or Frank Howard.

Those guys get no minutes unless G plays SF which is wrong. Cooney has undeserved tenure and has had it for 3 years now.

Again the kid should be the starter no doubt he should get starters minute each game and when he is hot play him 35 minutes but to just give him 37-38 minutes each game is just maddening.

I don't think anyone is really disputing what you are saying.

The OP suggested we don't recruit shooters. Which I believe is false. Cooney and Richardson were 4 and 5 star recruits who came in supposedly known for shooting. Both were wanted by schools who value shooting (Notre Dame, Indiana, etc).

For whatever reason Cooney has been inconsistent. He was better overall for the most part two years ago, and has seemed to regress over the past two years.

Richardson hasn't hit his stride yet, and I have questions how good of a shooter he really is because it's not like he's automatic from the line. I'm sure he will get better, but I'm not sure how much.

I think we have good coaches, but maybe they aren't great at coaching shooting compared to other skills.

 

[Brooky03]

Thanks Millhouse. These are telling stats. Not irrelevant by a long shot. The FB board just discussed this subject ad nauseaum. Is it coaching or recruiting?

Can't coach shooting (not significantly, anyway). Duke recruits better shooters, so Duke has guards that shoot better. It's literally that simple.

Remember how countless coaches tried to fix Tim Tebow's throwing motion and couldn't? Same thing. Unless you're dealing with a raw recruit, coaches aren't going to change the form of most shooters such that it will improve shooting drastically. Footwork is probably the only thing a coach could improve, but that also is primarily on the player since all coaches teach the same fundamental when it comes to footwork; it's a pretty basic thing to teach and learn.

Andy Rautins didn't shoot 40% because somebody in college taught him one damn thing. He shot 40% because he shot 40% or better for his whole life.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Can't coach shooting (not significantly, anyway). Duke recruits better shooters, so Duke has guards that shoot better. It's literally that simple.

Remember how countless coaches tried to fix Tim Tebow's throwing motion and couldn't? Same thing. Unless you're dealing with a raw recruit, coaches aren't going to change the form of most shooters such that it will improve shooting drastically. Footwork is probably the only thing a coach could improve, but that also is primarily on the player since all coaches teach the same fundamental when it comes to footwork; it's a pretty basic thing to teach and learn.

Andy Rautins didn't shoot 40% because somebody in college taught him one damn thing. He shot 40% because he shot 40% or better for his whole life.

Rautins shot 40% from three one year here. He was blasted as much as Cooney before that year. Remember? Legacy recruit. His first year he shot 32% and improved each year from three. He finished his career here shooting 37% from three.

http://www.orangehoops.org/ARautins.htm

 

[Millhouse]

Can't coach shooting (not significantly, anyway). Duke recruits better shooters, so Duke has guards that shoot better. It's literally that simple.

Remember how countless coaches tried to fix Tim Tebow's throwing motion and couldn't? Same thing. Unless you're dealing with a raw recruit, coaches aren't going to change the form of most shooters such that it will improve shooting drastically. Footwork is probably the only thing a coach could improve, but that also is primarily on the player since all coaches teach the same fundamental when it comes to footwork; it's a pretty basic thing to teach and learn.

Andy Rautins didn't shoot 40% because somebody in college taught him one damn thing. He shot 40% because he shot 40% or better for his whole life.

we need to recruit more of those guys. even if they're not 6'3

 

[NineOneSeven]

Rautins shot 40% from three one year here. He was blasted as much as Cooney before that year. Remember? Legacy recruit. His first year he shot 32% and improved each year from three. He finished his career here shooting 37% from three.

http://www.orangehoops.org/ARautins.htm

Rautins was also a better playmaker and defender. It helped that his senior year was perhaps our best ever team.

 

[Millhouse]

Rautins shot 40% from three one year here. He was blasted as much as Cooney before that year. Remember? Legacy recruit. His first year he shot 32% and improved each year from three. He finished his career here shooting 37% from three.

http://www.orangehoops.org/ARautins.htm

i'm guilty of this too but I don't think people realize the significance of small changes in three point shooting percentages.

we all know that 3 is 50% more than 2 but it's easy to overlook how a small percentage improvement in 3 point percentage is. Going from 30% to 36% in 3 point shooting is the same as going from 50% to 65% from 2 point range.

3 pts * (36-30)/30 = 2 pts * (65-50)/50

Small percentage differences in 3 point shooting matter a lot and we are amplifying that by shooting so many 3s. Boeheim might feel like he has no other choice but this is going to turn us in to a very average team

 

[Brooky03]

Rautins shot 40% from three one year here. He was blasted as much as Cooney before that year. Remember? Legacy recruit. His first year he shot 32% and improved each year from three. He finished his career here shooting 37% from three.

http://www.orangehoops.org/ARautins.htm

I'm aware of Rautins' stats. 40% was an off-the-cuff remark because I knew off the top of my head his best season was at 40%. I didn't think that would be the sticking point, as it wasn't the crux of my post.

Rautins was critized only as a freshman because of the legacy thing, and his 32% shooting on very limited playing time as a freshman wasn't a topic of much discussion. In the subsequent years, he was rarely criticized - it certainly wasn't constant criticism - because he produced. The point was, and remains, that Rautins was a top notch shooter who was a top notch shooter practically his entire life and remained a top notch shooter his entire college career. Any nominal improvement in 3-point percentage over his college career is the culmination of multiple factors; coaching is near the bottom of that list.

 

[Brooky03]

we need to recruit more of those guys. even if they're not 6'3

I don't disagree with you. Though, Duke's guards who shoot that well still tend to be in the 6'4"+ range like our guards.

 

[Cusefan0307]

i'm guilty of this too but I don't think people realize the significance of small changes in three point shooting percentages.

we all know that 3 is 50% more than 2 but it's easy to overlook how a small percentage improvement in 3 point percentage is. Going from 30% to 36% in 3 point shooting is the same as going from 50% to 65% from 2 point range.

3 pts * (36-30)/30 = 2 pts * (65-50)/50

Small percentage differences in 3 point shooting matter a lot and we are amplifying that by shooting so many 3s. Boeheim might feel like he has no other choice but this is going to turn us in to a very average team

I agree. Rautins turned himself into a great shooter over time. Small progression each year. Since he has left I have seen regression from our two guards.

We would be ok with Cooney and Richardson being 34-36 percent. We aren't going to be successful this year with Richardson shooting 27% and Cooney shooting 31%.

Everyone can talk about the coaches playing other guys more, but I honestly don't see that happening at this point.

If Richardson was 4-11 and Cooney was 2-8, still not great percentages, we still win the other day playing terrible defense.

 

[br801]

I'm aware of Rautins' stats. 40% was an off-the-cuff remark because I knew off the top of my head his best season was at 40%. I didn't think that would be the sticking point, as it wasn't the crux of my post.

Rautins was critized only as a freshman because of the legacy thing and his 32% shooting on very limited playing time as a freshman wasn't a topic of much discussion. In the subsequent years, he was rarely criticized, it certainly wasn't constant criticism, because he produced. The point was, and remains, that Rautins was a top notch shooter who was a top notch shooter practically his entire life and remained a top notch shooter his entire college career. Any nominal improvement in 3-point percentage over his college career is the culmination of multiple factors; coaching is near the bottom of that list.

You must have been reading another board because Andy was a lightning rod figure on here until his senior season.

 

[Cusefan0307]

I'm aware of Rautins' stats. 40% was an off-the-cuff remark because I knew off the top of my head his best season was at 40%. I didn't think that would be the sticking point, as it wasn't the crux of my post.

Rautins was critized only as a freshman because of the legacy thing, and his 32% shooting on very limited playing time as a freshman wasn't a topic of much discussion. In the subsequent years, he was rarely criticized - it certainly wasn't constant criticism - because he produced. The point was, and remains, that Rautins was a top notch shooter who was a top notch shooter practically his entire life and remained a top notch shooter his entire college career. Any nominal improvement in 3-point percentage over his college career is the culmination of multiple factors; coaching is near the bottom of that list.

He benefitted a great deal from tearing his ACL. Even his second year he was pretty much one dimensional. He came back a completely different player.

 

[Brooky03]

You must have been reading another board because Andy was a lightning rod figure on here until his senior season.

I wasn't an active member of this board then. I'm going by what I would read on the Rivals boards at the time and the general talk amongst fans at games and in conversations at school/work. Few people I talked to had a problem with Andy because he shot well, played defense, and put forth a lot of effort on the court. Anybody who had consistent issues with him here was an idiot.

 

[Alsacs]

Andy. Rautins never played 35mpg for multiple years in a row.

If Cooney played the Rautins minutes he wouldn't get as much criticism because he wouldn't be playing superstar minutes.

 

[Millhouse]

I agree. Rautins turned himself into a great shooter over time. Small progression each year. Since he has left I have seen regression from our two guards.

We would be ok with Cooney and Richardson being 34-36 percent. We aren't going to be successful this year with Richardson shooting 27% and Cooney shooting 31%.

Everyone can talk about the coaches playing other guys more, but I honestly don't see that happening at this point.

If Richardson was 4-11 and Cooney was 2-8, still not great percentages, we still win the other day playing terrible defense.

cooney shooting 8 threes a game and hitting 29% of them in conference is completely baffling to me. i love boeheim but the green light from 3 baffles me so often. ovcina for instance. how in the does a guy who shoots 24.7% from three and 53% from the free throw line end up taking A HUNDRED FIFTY three point attempts

 

[Brooky03]

Andy. Rautins never played 35mpg for multiple years in a row.

If Cooney played the Rautins minutes he wouldn't get as much criticism because he wouldn't be playing superstar minutes.

Not sure if this was directed at my posts or not. I'm not comparing the two players, and wouldn't.

 

[rrlbees]

Andy. Rautins never played 35mpg for multiple years in a row. If Cooney played the Rautins minutes he wouldn't get as much criticism because he wouldn't be playing superstar minutes.

Completely different team composition when Andy was here.

 

[CuseHulk]

We need to be recruiting more Big's.

We have a guard and a wing in next years class. I know 2017 we r involved.

Go out and get Goodluck Okonoboh. He can back up Pascal next year at some point.

We need more Legit Big's. Don't just give me Thompson who we r prob gonna land. Somebody has said poor mans Chris McCullough.

 

[Brooky03]

We need to be recruiting more Big's.

We have a guard and a wing in next years class. I know 2017 we r involved.

Go out and get Goodluck Okonoboh. He can back up Pascal next year at some point.

We need more Legit Big's. Don't just give me Thompson who we r prob gonna land. Somebody has said poor mans Chris McCullough.

Aren't we still in the running for Thompson at PF? I haven't checked the recruiting board in a while.