Why can't SU recruit guards who can shoot?

[OrangeFoo]

Very true. And a slight dropoff is to be expected as the player draws more concerted defensive attention.

The issue is a guy like Triche who is a four year stater dropping to 27% [or whatever] his senior year. Saw the same thing with CJ Fair, who was the ultimate complimentary shooter as a junior [hitting nearly 50% of his threes], but dropping to ~29% as a senior forced to carry the team.

I think that's why people are scratching their heads. We know that these players are capable of doing better, but they are dropping off of a cliff when it comes to shooting percentages.

I think the problem is that we've had such unbalanced teams over the course of the last decade or so that it's been pretty easy to isolate on the guy who is the designated shooter for the year and take him out of the game. Cooney has been that guy the last few years. CJ was the guy his senior year. Triche was the guy before CJ... KJO was the guy before Triche

The good teams we have had have enough shooters where a team can't focus on one dude. The Wes/Rautins/triche/scoop/AO/KJO/Rick year was amazing because we had offense at every position and off the bench. The Dion years were decent because again Scoop/Dion/Rick/Brandon gave us a pretty balanced offense. Other than those two years and the Melo/Gmac and Hakim/Gmac years we have struggled to put a balanced offense on the floor. Sadly I can't even remember before Gmac/Melo but I remember we had some pretty bad offensive teams then too. We're talking about 4 or 5 good years out of 15.

I have the utmost respect for Coach JB for his innovation on defense... but I think the NCAA caught up to his D and he hasn't been innovative enough on offense to compensate. Ironically this year is one of the first years in a LONG time where I've seen some innovation on offense but the lack of player development (Cooney, KJO), injuries (Coleman), early departures and NCAA issues have left us with a program that is in pretty bad shape for this year. We need to get really lucky over the next couple of seasons and hope that some guys can stick around so we can build some program depth. We are never going to be Kentucky or Duke so we need to start doing much much better with our recruiting strategies in building a program or we're going to turn into ND with one good year out of every 4 if the stars align.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

CJ was never a good 3 point shooter IMO. He could make them when left completely unguarded, but that was it. Outside of the one flukey year (and he never shot many 3's so his sample sizes were always relatively small), CJ shot 27% from 3 for his career. He was a poor 3 point shooter every season except the one, and in that year, he was a streaky shooter on low volume.

If I remember it correctly, Triche had serious back issues his last year that clearly took its toll on him, and I think that was also the case with Cooney last year as the year went on. But yeah, there is definitely a noticeable trend regarding players regressing in terms of shooting %'s.

So you're telling me by the time he's a senior Malachi is going to shoot 7% from three? .

 

[RF2044]

Why can't Joseph play with G? We rarely see them as the 2 guards on the floor.

When have we seen the lineup G-Joseph-Richardson-Roberson-Lydon/Coleman on the floor for 4-5 minutes against Wisconsin/Gtown/St.Johns?

Agreed. Pretty clear he's not a PG, so let G set the offense.

 

[cuseguy]

Agreed. Pretty clear he's not a PG, so let G set the offense.

This is a big reason why things haven't been running smoothly.

Joseph was supposed to be point guard by now.

G would be playing the 3 and Malachi would be coming off the bench.

 

[RF2044]

CJ was never a good 3 point shooter IMO. He could make them when left completely unguarded, but that was it. Outside of the one flukey year (and he never shot many 3's so his sample sizes were always relatively small), CJ shot 27% from 3 for his career. He was a poor 3 point shooter every season except the one, and in that year, he was a streaky shooter on low volume.

If I remember it correctly, Triche had serious back issues his last year that clearly took its toll on him, and I think that was also the case with Cooney last year as the year went on. But yeah, there is definitely a noticeable trend regarding players regressing in terms of shooting %'s.

CJ wasn't streaky that junior year. He picked his spots, and shot a highly efficient percentage due to great shot selection. You comment about "when he was completely unguarded" -- well, credit to the kid for getting to spots where he was unguarded, and for displaying such high hoops IQ shot selection.

He played a lot of PF his earlier years, and didn't shot much outside of 12 feet or so before his junior year. Kid became a very good mid range shooter later in his career [a lost art], which suggests that he was a better shooter overall than people give him credit for.

BTW, not that this has anything to do with this thread, but CJ led the team in scoring, rebounding, 3p%, FT% his junior year when we went to the final four. Pretty impressive complimentary weapon, and he was perfect in that role.

 

[RF2044]

This is a big reason why things haven't been running smoothly.

Joseph was supposed to be point guard by now.

G would be playing the 3 and Malachi would be coming off the bench.

Agreed.

 

[reedny]

This was a disappointing loss, mostly b/c St. John's has been a dumpster fire leading into this season. It's mullen's first year, and this team had lost to Vandy (by 35), lost to Fordham and beat Niagara by only 4 points. So I don't think too many people saw this coming. Unfortunately, their shooters went off and they outrebounded us by 15. That was somewhat mitigated by a bunch of steals we made trying to crawl back into the game, but they just couldn't miss in the second half. And we couldn't hit -- Cooney and MR went 1-19 from outside. So on offense in the second half, we were playing 2 on 5, with only Lydon and G able to get going without a flurry of attempts.

By contrast, St. Johns rebounded well and shot extremely well. They shot 50% from deep, hitting 12 3's to our 5. The two kids they dragged out of Italy couldn't have played better. Mussini went 5/7 from 3, for 17 points. Alibegovic shot 3/4 from down town (5/6 overall) and had 15 points and 9 rebounds. We had no one to counter that kind of firepower.

The problem with this team continues to be one-dimensionality. On nights we don't hit from the perimeter and the other team does, we lose. And our FS is attrocious. Clearly, our starters are in the game too long and aren't being rested by any bench talent.
Our inside offense is almost non-existent. We're getting humped on the glass ... and the really bad news is, we haven't even started playing conference teams yet. It's going to get worse.

I don't see any remedy for the rut we're in without a shakeup in the starting lineup. If Howard is ready, I'd like him to start up top next to TC so G can move to the 3. MR can come in for TC or G and add some offense. This will allow G to concentrate on scoring without having to worry about starting the offense. Also, I would try Lydon at the 4 to start over TR, and DC2 starting in the middle. Right now, Roberson's just not getting it done offensively and I think he'd be better off coming off the bench for rebounding and an inside offensive spark. Lydon's rebounding is just as good, if not better. And he's a better offensive player that we need on the floor. That would give us MR and TR coming off the bench ... and potentially more offense from the starting lineup.

 

[Millhouse]

I'm not going to be harsh, because he's not a finished project, but getting he or Cooney shooting high volumes of shots is not a recipe for winning Syracuse basketball. Richardson has good form, but thats all I can say right now. St. Johns wanted Malachi to shoot yesterday, Mullin basically said as much after the game.

Lydon has made 3 less shots overall on 42 less attempts.

Lydon has made 6 less threes on 44 less attempts.

It's a long season, hopefully everyone gets better, but I think the success of the season is predicated on getting Lydon more aggressive.

what does chris mullin know about shooting ha

 

[Alsacs]

This is a big reason why things haven't been running smoothly.

Joseph was supposed to be point guard by now.

G would be playing the 3 and Malachi would be coming off the bench.

Did we run off Johnson? He could be the 3 this year and Malachi coming off the bench.

Maybe Joseph isn't a PG but he could be a combo with G in the backcourt. I don't get the vitriol Joseph gets and Cooney gets a pass from the coaching staff. Joseph is the younger player he should get more of a break. Cooney's D is not special it is average. He cheats for steals and gives penetration in the zone yet the staff doesn't sit him. It is just frustrating. I watched the game with a UNC fan who told me if he can't hit his jump shots he shouldn't be playing as the D was awful all around yesterday.

 

[Alsacs]

This was a disappointing loss, mostly b/c St. John's has been a dumpster fire leading into this season. It's mullen's first year, and this team had lost to Vandy (by 35), lost to Fordham and beat Niagara by only 4 points. So I don't think too many people saw this coming. Unfortunately, their shooters went off and they outrebounded us by 15. That was somewhat mitigated by a bunch of steals we made trying to crawl back into the game, but they just couldn't miss in the second half. And we couldn't hit -- Cooney and MR went 1-19. So on offense, we were playing 2 on 5, with only Lydon and G able to get going without a flurry of attempts.

By contrast, St. Johns rebounded well and shot extremely well. They shot 50% from deep, hitting 12 3's to our 5. The two kids they dragged out of Italy couldn't have played better. Mussini went 5/7 from 3, for 17 points. Alibegovic shot 3/4 from down town (5/6 overall) and had 15 points and 9 rebounds. We had no one to counter that kind of firepower.

The problem with this team continues to be one-dimensionality. On nights we don't hit from the perimeter and the other team does, we lose. And our FS is attrocious. Clearly, our starters are in the game too long and aren't being rested by any bench talent.
Our inside offense is almost non-existent. We're getting humped on the glass ... and the really bad news is, we haven't even started playing conference teams yet. It's going to get worse.

I don't see any remedy for the rut we're in without a shakeup in the starting lineup. If Howard is ready, I'd like him to start up top next to TC so G can move to the 3. MR can come in for TC or G and add some offense. This will allow G to concentrate on scoring without having to worry about starting the offense. Also, I would try Lydon at the 4 to start over TR, and DC2 starting in the middle. Right now, Roberson's just not getting it done offensively and I think he'd be better off coming off the bench for rebounding and an inside offensive spark. Lydon's rebounding is just as good, if not better. And he's a better offensive player that we need on the floor. That would give us MR and TR coming off the bench ... and potentially more offense from the starting lineup.

Richardson at the top would give us more length there and hopefully G would rebound better than MR.

I just want to stop seeing TC playing 38 MPG like its manifest destiny.

 

[Ghost]

This is just such a strange year to bring this up. The first time in what feels like forever that we have multiple players that can shoot, and we've become a team that lives and dies by the 3 and people choose to complain about a lack of shooting ability this year? Lol

I think people need to take a deep breath; this team just screams inconsistency, and the season is way too young to make any declarative statements about Malachi's shooting ability. His shot selection is pretty clearly bad, but the kid was shooting nearly 40% from 3 up until the Wisconsin game. He's had a few bad games in a row and he kept trying to shoot his way out of it like shooters are taught to. All we can really go on is that he was recruited as a shooter.

I mean seriously... a few games ago you had all the commentators talking about how great Syracuse's offense can be due to how many good shooters we have. I would have understood this argument a few years ago, but it just seems weird to harp on this after we clearly targeted shooting with our most recent recruiting class by bringing in Malachi and Lydon.

I will say the FT shooting has driven me nuts for a long time and still does, and the lack of shooters in the past has driven me nuts, but this year we appear to actually have a bunch of guys that can shoot; we just don't have much else.

Just to touch on this, this is the first year in awhile where the recruiting seems to mesh a bit. We have a PG (Howard) that seems to have decent form on his shot, but by no means is a shooter yet. He can however contribute because he has a skill set that includes being able to dribble/drive, etc...Richardson is a nice recruit, multi-faceted SF, Lydon is a terrific shooter, and Diagne from all reports looked like he could have contributed this year (although I have no idea how accurate that is).

Going forward I think we're fine - but my god, losing Ennis should not throw a program into this much turmoil. And we're complaining because this is the team we have - which I like, they're just young. Obviously rebounding is a HUGE issue, but going back to last year, G/Rak/Roberson (rebounding) with one decent facilitator in either guard position and we should have been decent. We weren't. In three years we've had one competent guard that can facilitate for other players. That's a recipe for disaster - even if Ennis stayed.

 

[Millhouse]

Richardson at the top would give us more length there and hopefully G would rebound better than MR.

I just want to stop seeing TC playing 38 MPG like its manifest destiny.

cooney needs to shoot 50% on his next 100 three pointers to get to 35% for his career.

he needs to shoot 50% on his next 472 three pointers to get to 40%

i hope this doesn't give him any ideas

 

[reedny]

Richardson at the top would give us more length there and hopefully G would rebound better than MR.

I just want to stop seeing TC playing 38 MPG like its manifest destiny.

I don't think MR is ready to run the offense. He's a volume scorer who's trying to find his way. He has a huge upside, once he starts driving the lane, stepping in to shoot mid-range shots and finding open teammates. But he's been very inefficient .. yesterday he had 15 points (which is fine), but on 20 attempts (which is not). I like that he's getting to the line and making most of his FT's, but having howard start up top solves a couple problems:

1. we lack a pure PG to set up the offense and distribute the ball (some of us saw this coming months ago); and
2. we aren't a good enough offensive team to have 1 or 2 players not involved in scoring. Having MR back up G and TC gives us a capable scorer coming off the bench if one of those 2 is not shooting well or needs a rest.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Did we run off Johnson? He could be the 3 this year and Malachi coming off the bench.

Maybe Joseph isn't a PG but he could be a combo with G in the backcourt. I don't get the vitriol Joseph gets and Cooney gets a pass from the coaching staff. Joseph is the younger player he should get more of a break. Cooney's D is not special it is average. He cheats for steals and gives penetration in the zone yet the staff doesn't sit him. It is just frustrating. I watched the game with a UNC fan who told me if he can't hit his jump shots he shouldn't be playing as the D was awful all around yesterday.

I think if BJ had redshirted his Freshman year he would still be here.

Cooney got caught gambling yesterday a bit, I also thought he was trying to compensate for the back line continuously coming off guys in the corner.

Roberson get's a pass for his D because he's such a good rebounder but he left Johnson open a ton yesterday.

The defensive effort was a failure all around.

 

[Alsacs]

cooney needs to shoot 50% on his next 100 three pointers to get to 35% for his career.

he needs to shoot 50% on his next 472 three pointers to get to 40%

i hope this doesn't give him any ideas

Just so you know Cooney's career PER is 15.8 an average college basketball player is suppose to have a 15.0.

His career has been average which is fine when you aren't playing 37-38 mpg. That average is because his Sophomore year he was over 18. The last two years have been in the 13 range.

Yet he will continue playing 38 mpg because.

 

[Ghost]

CJ wasn't streaky that junior year. He picked his spots, and shot a highly efficient percentage due to great shot selection. You comment about "when he was completely unguarded" -- well, credit to the kid for getting to spots where he was unguarded, and for displaying such high hoops IQ shot selection.

He played a lot of PF his earlier years, and didn't shot much outside of 12 feet or so before his junior year. Kid became a very good mid range shooter later in his career [a lost art], which suggests that he was a better shooter overall than people give him credit for.

BTW, not that this has anything to do with this thread, but CJ led the team in scoring, rebounding, 3p%, FT% his junior year when we went to the final four. Pretty impressive complimentary weapon, and he was perfect in that role.

Yeah, was never a fan of the 'CJ ISO' offense we employed his Senior year. It didn't play to his strengths at all. Agree with everything else.

 

[Alsacs]

I don't think MR is ready to run the offense. He's a volume scorer who's trying to find his way. He has a huge upside, once he starts driving the lane, stepping in to shoot mid-range shots and finding open teammates. But he's been very inefficient .. yesterday he had 15 points (which is fine), but on 20 attempts (which is not). I like that he's getting to the line and making most of his FT's, but having howard start up top solves a couple problems:

1. we lack a pure PG to set up the offense and distribute the ball (some of us saw this coming months ago); and
2. we aren't a good enough offensive team to have 1 or 2 players not involved in scoring. Having MR back up G and TC gives us a capable scorer coming off the bench if one of those 2 is not shooting well or needs a rest.

I would love to see Howard getting a shot at PG. With G as SF who can help bring the ball up and run the offense.
Split the SG minutes with TC/MR.
Joseph backup FH/MG at PG.

Instead we get Cooney at SG no matter what. MR owns the SF minutes. G is forced to be PG.

 

[Ghost]

I think if BJ had redshirted his Freshman year he would still be here.

Cooney got caught gambling yesterday a bit, I also thought he was trying to compensate for the back line continuously coming off guys in the corner.

Roberson get's a pass for his D because he's such a good rebounder but he left Johnson open a ton yesterday.

The defensive effort was a failure all around.

I really found BJ curious, I think he would have helped this year. Although I thought he would help last year...and not so much. lol

 

[Alsacs]

I think if BJ had redshirted his Freshman year he would still be here.

Cooney got caught gambling yesterday a bit, I also thought he was trying to compensate for the back line continuously coming off guys in the corner.

Roberson get's a pass for his D because he's such a good rebounder but he left Johnson open a ton yesterday.

The defensive effort was a failure all around.

I am not picking on just Cooney's D we were awful all around. However he cheats a lot not just yesterday.

It sucks we didn't have that 11th scholarship now as Johnson is likely still here if we have that.

 

[Millhouse]

Just so you know Cooney's career PER is 15.8 an average college basketball player is suppose to have a 15.0.

His career has been average which is fine when you aren't playing 37-38 mpg. That average is because his Sophomore year he was over 18. The last two years have been in the 13 range.

Yet he will continue playing 38 mpg because.

there are 10 billion college basketball players, average college basketball players fortunate enough to get a scholarship should be firmly planted on the bench

 

[reedny]

I would love to see Howard getting a shot at PG. With G as SF who can help bring the ball up and run the offense.
Split the SG minutes with TC/MR.
Joseph backup FH/MG at PG.

Instead we get Cooney at SG no matter what. MR owns the SF minutes. G is forced to be PG.

It's not ideal, as we're seeing. I think the staff's trying to do what they can to win while FH comes up to speed. We need a distributor, but we also need a capable scorer to spell TC (if he's not hitting) and G if he needs a blow. That's not a slight on TC -- there are going to be some nights when every scorer can't get shots to fall. He does many other things to help the team, including reliable ball-handling, defense, etc..

On the front line, Lydon's been more productive than TR. At the 4 he can also stretch the D, which TR cannot. So I like Lydon to start and have TR come off the bench. And DC2 helps us offensively and on the glass. I think he's capable of playing more than 15 minutes .. and clearly Chino needs to get going to give us some backup size inside. It's a mystery to me why his PT has dried up in a year when we desperately need a backup C.

 

[Alsacs]

It's not ideal, as we're seeing. I think the staff's trying to do what they can to win while FH comes up to speed. We need a distributor, but we also need a capable scorer to spell TC (if he's not hitting) and G if he needs a blow. That's not a slight on TC -- there are going to be some nights when every scorer can't get shots to fall. He does many other things to help the team, including reliable ball-handling, defense, etc..

On the front line, Lydon's been more productive than TR. At the 4 he can also stretch the D, which TR cannot. So I like Lydon to start and have TR come off the bench.

I got no problem with anything you said.

I wish the staff would do this. I have no problem with TC playing 28-32 mpg that is not bad. He is the best option at SG he just shouldn't be the only option. He isn't that type of player.

Lydon starting would be fine as well. He would give more offense but he would open himself up to more FT and that would cause Chino to become the backup C.

 

[br801]

what does chris mullin know about shooting ha

He just waited for the SU game before showing them how to do it.

 

[skurey]

Just wanted to say the discussion in this thread has been top notch. Much better than the doom and gloomers vs the kool-aid drinkers.

 

[rrlbees]

Just wanted to say the discussion in this thread has been top notch. Much better than the doom and gloomers vs the kool-aid drinkers.

Except that 75% of the posts are not related to the OP and people are just repeating what they've said in other current threads.