Why don't we start our 5 best players? | Page 3 | Syracusefan.com

Why don't we start our 5 best players?

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There is a political dimension to this issue. The most valuable recruits are the couple of dozen McDAA's that get divied up each year between the power teams. JB can boast that any McDAA who chooses SU will likely get to start.

Melo started last year, even though he was not ready. Christmas this year. Carter-Williams is brought in as fast as possible, even though he doesn't belong. It's all part of the sales pitch to keep the pipeline flowing.

I think JB wised up to this strategy after he went through nearly a decade without a single McDAA recruit. Prior to that period, freshmen like Bruin, Walker and McRae all rode the bench to great dissatisfaction. The word gets around.

Do you think this works? Like, can't they see that Rak starts and plays 3 min and then goes to the bench for the res tof the game?

But I can see what you are saying; most of the elite recruits naturally have a lot of confidence in themselves, so they probably think "as long as I get a chance to start I'll make them keep me in".
 
Do you think this works? Like, can't they see that Rak starts and plays 3 min and then goes to the bench for the res tof the game?

But I can see what you are saying; most of the elite recruits naturally have a lot of confidence in themselves, so they probably think "as long as I get a chance to start I'll make them keep me in".

Yes indeed. They all think they are at least as good as Devo, Green and Flynn who all played big minutes as Fr.
 
Yes indeed. They all think they are at least as good as Devo, Green and Flynn who all played big minutes as Fr.

Isn't it funny that the team they all played major minutes on were 2 of the lesser teams we've had in the past 8-10 years? (Though to be fair, we also had 3 seniors in 07 and they weren't that good a team either).

Of course, we had some freshmen play some major minutes for a pretty good team back in 03 as well.
 
all of these conversations about why certain people dont start cant be answered all the same way..

it doesnt matter who starts, it matters who finishes

This isn't true. It's a cute cliché, but it's not empirically factual.
1. Since you can't 'fork' time, you have no idea what the eventual outcome would have been if you did something differently. And, since we aren't likely to finish the season undefeated, it's entirely possible that a different strategy would yield better results.
2. To the players, it absolutely does matter. Anyone good enough to play real minutes for SU is, effectively, in a Pre-NBA program. Saying a 'starter' designation doesn't matter is like telling a pre-Med student it doesn't matter where you finish within your class or what your GPA is. And, aside from that, PRIDE is a powerful matter. Especially in the mind of a 20-year old who's learning/practicing his craft in front of a national audience.
 
This isn't true. It's a cute cliché, but it's not empirically factual.
1. Since you can't 'fork' time, you have no idea what the eventual outcome would have been if you did something differently. And, since we aren't likely to finish the season undefeated, it's entirely possible that a different strategy would yield better results.
2. To the players, it absolutely does matter. Anyone good enough to play real minutes for SU is, effectively, in a Pre-NBA program. Saying a 'starter' designation doesn't matter is like telling a pre-Med student it doesn't matter where you finish within your class or what your GPA is. And, aside from that, PRIDE is a powerful matter. Especially in the mind of a 20-year old who's learning/practicing his craft in front of a national audience.

This is a great post anyone who has played basketball would understand that it does matter who starts
 
Of course, often our bench guys are playing their bench guys. He starts his best combination. I love having our own "microwave" that comes off the bench, plus our " Josh Pace 2.0. complete with better hops & longer shooting range" coming off the bench.

U just didn't compare Josh Pace to Dion Waiters did u?
 
James is an interesting guy to evaluate, because he plays such a specific role on offense. Pick and pop, and shoot 3's. His offensive rating is ridiculously high; part of that is because of his role on offense (he never dribbles, so he never turns the ball over) but part of that is also because he's been a very efficient offensive player.

he is doing so much more than that, though. He moves without the ball, he is conscientious about his spacing, he tirelessly sets picks (often several times on a single possession), he doesn't drive very often but he handles the ball on the perimeter, he looks for open teammates (he had three very nice assists last night; I really wish JB would use him more at the high post, I think he would be a terrific weapon there); most important for a designated shooter, he is not a ball stopper. He takes the shots when they are available and takes them within the flow of the offense.

However, I still can't get past the fact that he has showed up in only one of the games we've played against bigger name competition. Could just be a fluke, but I'm taking Fab over James right now.
I think it is a fluke. The games at MSG were relatively early in the season and, for whatever reason, JB tightened his rotation and didn't really give James any run. Against Marshall and Florida, true he didn't score, but he played very well all around in both games, especially on the defensive end. His combined numbers for those games were 5 boards, 4 blocks and 3 steals in 29 minutes. Those are very good energy numbers for a guy off the bench. Given that James has a history of going into a shell when his shot hasn't fallen, the fact that he also went a combined 1-6 from three in those games really speaks to his development. He is not just a one dimensional player.

Tim Welsh said during the Bucknell game that Hopkins told him Dirty is the lynchpin of the season. I think he is right - for good and ill. If James keeps up this development and keeps playing like this at both ends of the court, I will be forced to change my opinion about this squad's prospects.
 
I'm late to the party on this one but...

Does anyone have a boat that needs rocking?
 
he is doing so much more than that, though. He moves without the ball, he is conscientious about his spacing, he tirelessly sets picks (often several times on a single possession), he doesn't drive very often but he handles the ball on the perimeter, he looks for open teammates (he had three very nice assists last night; I really wish JB would use him more at the high post, I think he would be a terrific weapon there); most important for a designated shooter, he is not a ball stopper. He takes the shots when they are available and takes them within the flow of the offense.

Most of that is true, but the bigger point I was getting at is that I think his offensive rating overstates his contribution, mainly because he never turns it over, which is mainly a function of the fact that he isn't asked to do much with the ball. (Though it is also fair to point out that it's not much of an insult to say that his offensive rating is overstated, because it's ridiculously high).

And I still stand by my point that guys who play that role are hard to evaluate. He's using fewer than 20% of possessions when he is on the court. His ft rate, while improved, is still pretty low. He doesn't get a lot of assists, he doesn't get a lot of turnovers. At this point, his role is primarily that of a floor space. He's putting the ball on the floor more this year than last (including a drive last night), but for the most part, he's setting screens and rolling to the 3 point line. Which is fine, you need guys to fill that role, and he does it exceptionally well. But those guys almost always have very high offensive ratings. And that also isn't to say that he isn't capable of more. As I allude to below, the sample sizes are small. but he has seemingly made great strides from this year to last year.

He did have those 3 nice assists last night, but those were his first assists in over a month. (Literally, he hadn't gotten an assist since the second game of the season.) So I can't give him too much credit for his passing.

I think it is a fluke. The games at MSG were relatively early in the season and, for whatever reason, JB tightened his rotation and didn't really give James any run. Against Marshall and Florida, true he didn't score, but he played very well all around in both games, especially on the defensive end. His combined numbers for those games were 5 boards, 4 blocks and 3 steals in 29 minutes. Those are very good energy numbers for a guy off the bench. Given that James has a history of going into a shell when his shot hasn't fallen, the fact that he also went a combined 1-6 from three in those games really speaks to his development. He is not just a one dimensional player.

It's probably a fluke. I shouldn't really hold it against him.

And I do agree that he has developed. As bad as his assist rate is this year, it's better than it was last year. His blocks are up, his steals are up, he's taking more 2's than he did before, which is resulting in his free throws being up, his offensive rebounding is up, his defensive rebounding is (slightly) up. And all of that is combined with the fact that his role in the offense is up.
 
He did have those 3 nice assists last night, but those were his first assists in over a month. (Literally, he hadn't gotten an assist since the second game of the season.) So I can't give him too much credit for his passing.
passing is more than assists, but you are correct. Oddly, however (and a function of a small sample) is that Dirty's Assist Rate is the best of all four forwards (as are his steal, block and turnover rates). Still, numbers aside, he passes the Eye Test, to me at least.

Maybe I am biased. I have always been enamored of his raw talent, and now that I see it finally translating into basketball skills, I am anticipating bigger things as the season progresses.
 
If it ain't broke...

11-0 ranked #1 = not broke

How will you know if it's "broke" [sic] until you play a team capable of challenging you? I hope the inference isn't meant to be "don't react until it's too late."

For me, though, this discussion is just a matter of conversation, and an exercise in logic and debate. JB's got reasons. From my position, it looks as if he's confident in the team's chances against the teams we've been up against (so far) and is still tinkering and getting experience for certain guys.

I do disagree that "confidence" isn't important and/or that a 20-year old basketball player should already be so steeled that it's not a factor at this stage of his career. Shooting IS largely a matter of confidence, and everyone who's ever seen a game knows it wanes and wavers from attempt to attempt.

What's more important to me is JB's vindictive substitution habits. I see no reason to yank a guy after a mistake when it's clearly a one-off deal. As if the kid's going to learn some lesson from the 'punishment.' The guy already knows what he did wrong. If he doesn't know without you sitting next to him and narrating, you've recruited the wrong kind of guy. I completely DO get it for habitual stuff. Or for 'discipline' issues - like when Scoop or Dion gets a bit 'wild' or over ambitious. But, it's counterproductive and defeats chemistry when one player clearly has no leash, and the next guy's on a short tether.
 
What's more important to me is JB's vindictive substitution habits. I see no reason to yank a guy after a mistake when it's clearly a one-off deal.
how do you know it is a one-off deal? are you sitting in on the practices? how certain are you that the mistake isn't something that has been specifically worked on with that particular player? And, more to the point, how do you know that the practice is "vindictive?"
 
passing is more than assists, but you are correct. Oddly, however (and a function of a small sample) is that Dirty's Assist Rate is the best of all four forwards (as are his steal, block and turnover rates). Still, numbers aside, he passes the Eye Test, to me at least.

Maybe I am biased. I have always been enamored of his raw talent, and now that I see it finally translating into basketball skills, I am anticipating bigger things as the season progresses.

First of all, between the last post I made and this one, Ken pom updated their stats for last nights game, which is awesome.

Anyway, it is kind of terrifying that Southerland leads our forwards in assist rate, since his is pretty damn low. But the guards make up for it.

I see a lot of what you are seeing with James, I'm not doubting the potential is there for him to be better. And like I said before, even if he doesn't develop much of an off the bounce game, he's still going to be a very valuable player with his mistake free, high efficiency game. But he does have the potential, which he is showing, to be much more, especially on the defensive end, where his length can manifest itself into blocks and steals.

I'm trying to think of a comp for Southerland, maybe like a James Posey on the Boston title team? They are both about 6-8, can knock down 3's, didn't carry mcuh of a load offensively; and Posey had a good defensive rep. Maybe a more athletic Posey though.
 
I'm trying to think of a comp for Southerland, maybe like a James Posey on the Boston title team? They are both about 6-8, can knock down 3's, didn't carry mcuh of a load offensively; and Posey had a good defensive rep. Maybe a more athletic Posey though.
that's not a bad comparison, but I think that James has a more versatile offensive game, if JB chooses to unleash it. As of now, he seems to want to use James almost solely as you note - the pick and pop guy. I think he would be effective in the high post, where he can stick the mid range jumper or hit the cutter on the baseline. Maybe JB needs to have more confidence in him going to the hoop (making him a legit triple threat) before he puts him there.
 
Scoop
Waiters
Joseph
Fair
Melo

Scoop
Waiters
Joseph
Fair
Melo
wrong
regardless of what boeheim says rak is top three on this team. he's huge, has great hands, timing and the only low post game since old melo. so are you and boeheim going t0 chose the players or am i
 
Great, this idiotic thread second guessing a hall of fame coach about who should start for the undefeated #1 team in the country has attracted the riff-raff. This "debate" is ridiculous.
 
I feel like I may have short changed James with that comparison, at least in college. I do think he can be more a part of the offense than Posey was in the NBA.

But I do think he's game off the dribble is going to be a little limited. But he has all the tools to be a force on the defensive end.
 
wrong
regardless of what boeheim says rak is top three on this team. he's huge, has great hands, timing and the only low post game since old melo. so are you and boeheim going t0 chose the players or am i

AO didn't have a low post game? Warrick didn't have a low post game?
 
wrong
regardless of what boeheim says rak is top three on this team. he's huge, has great hands, timing and the only low post game since old melo. so are you and boeheim going t0 chose the players or am i
Whoa! The man himself comes off the Mount. Listen closely. ;)
 
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