Why the Token Minutes!

Joined
Sep 6, 2012
Messages
1,105
Likes
1,030
#1
In end game situations with the lead we often run the shot clock down to the very last second then run back and play 2-3 without ever applying token one man 3/4 court ball pressure on the inbounds play allowing the other team to roll the ball up the floor. This allows time to stay on the clock and the PG to call the play with both hands un-distracted by dribbling.

When ahead we take air out of the ball early and often. There were about 6 mins left when we did it this weekend against BC, early but not out of the question for us. I saw one possession during that period where one of our guards ran back to the 2-3 then ran out to half court because of the roll up, but no intentional Defense for the roll up.

I believe we could close out games more easily and reduce the rate of heart attack in Syracuse, NY and all areas of the OTTO-Man Empire by simply forcing teams to in-bounds pass to a player. They roll in you push up fast on the ball slowing them down by forcing an an extra pass, and providing disincentive for the roll, If they inbound you fall back to 2-3 to avoid speeding them up. Alternate which player has responsibility between the 3 fastest players on the floor (assuming PG-SG-SF)

This weekend's game vs BC Example
Lets say it takes 6 seconds on a possession to dribble the ball into the front court.
6 minus left (360secs)
6 mins left we start taking almost the full 30 seconds to burn clock. (~25secs/pos)
Under 2 mins left they start fouling with increasing frequency (~5 secs/pos)
They roll the ball up and take a shot early in the shot clock (~7secs/pos)
=17 Possessions Each

Now if we apply token 1 man at 3/4 court pressure
Lets say it takes 6 seconds on a possession to dribble the ball into the front court.
6 minus left (360secs)
6 mins left we start taking almost the full 30 seconds to burn clock. (~25secs/pos)
Under 2 mins left they start fouling with increasing frequency (~5 secs/pos)
Token ball pressure applied to inbound ball bring up court take a shot early in the shot clock (~13secs/pos)
=13 Possessions Each, 13x6sec = Over a Minute is burned just with them bringing the ball up (1:18)

For arguments:
2sec to bring the ball up 15.6 possessions ~30sec
3sec to bring the ball up 14.9 possessions ~44sec <-Very fast to be used as an average without being out of control (turnovers)
4sec to bring the ball up 14.2 possessions ~56sec
5sec to bring the ball up 13.5 possessions ~67sec

I post these types of things after wins on purpose to reduce angry discussions but please analyze away and tear it apart boys and girls. What am I missing here? Can I stop screaming TOKEN BALL PRESSURE at my TV?
 

upperdeck

Living Legend
Joined
Aug 26, 2011
Messages
12,539
Likes
8,140
#3
I think they were more worried about the BC kid getting a head of steam, running by who ever forced him to pick up the dribble and then attacking a 1-3 defense.. its not like they picked it up and went right into shots, they were forced to pass it around so it all worked out.. this is far different than a few seconds on the clock at the end of the game..

also if we had fouls to give them its easier cause if he blows by you can just reach end and force another inbounds thats probably thrown into the back court, but our team is more likely to foul in those chasing ,unsettled situations.
 

cliftonparksufan

Iggy Award Magistrate
Joined
Aug 14, 2011
Messages
10,044
Likes
13,585
#4
In end game situations with the lead we often run the shot clock down to the very last second then run back and play 2-3 without ever applying token one man 3/4 court ball pressure on the inbounds play allowing the other team to roll the ball up the floor. This allows time to stay on the clock and the PG to call the play with both hands un-distracted by dribbling.

When ahead we take air out of the ball early and often. There were about 6 mins left when we did it this weekend against BC, early but not out of the question for us. I saw one possession during that period where one of our guards ran back to the 2-3 then ran out to half court because of the roll up, but no intentional Defense for the roll up.

I believe we could close out games more easily and reduce the rate of heart attack in Syracuse, NY and all areas of the OTTO-Man Empire by simply forcing teams to in-bounds pass to a player. They roll in you push up fast on the ball slowing them down by forcing an an extra pass, and providing disincentive for the roll, If they inbound you fall back to 2-3 to avoid speeding them up. Alternate which player has responsibility between the 3 fastest players on the floor (assuming PG-SG-SF)

This weekend's game vs BC Example
Lets say it takes 6 seconds on a possession to dribble the ball into the front court.
6 minus left (360secs)
6 mins left we start taking almost the full 30 seconds to burn clock. (~25secs/pos)
Under 2 mins left they start fouling with increasing frequency (~5 secs/pos)
They roll the ball up and take a shot early in the shot clock (~7secs/pos)
=17 Possessions Each

Now if we apply token 1 man at 3/4 court pressure
Lets say it takes 6 seconds on a possession to dribble the ball into the front court.
6 minus left (360secs)
6 mins left we start taking almost the full 30 seconds to burn clock. (~25secs/pos)
Under 2 mins left they start fouling with increasing frequency (~5 secs/pos)
Token ball pressure applied to inbound ball bring up court take a shot early in the shot clock (~13secs/pos)
=13 Possessions Each, 13x6sec = Over a Minute is burned just with them bringing the ball up (1:18)

For arguments:
2sec to bring the ball up 15.6 possessions ~30sec
3sec to bring the ball up 14.9 possessions ~44sec <-Very fast to be used as an average without being out of control (turnovers)
4sec to bring the ball up 14.2 possessions ~56sec
5sec to bring the ball up 13.5 possessions ~67sec

I post these types of things after wins on purpose to reduce angry discussions but please analyze away and tear it apart boys and girls. What am I missing here? Can I stop screaming TOKEN BALL PRESSURE at my TV?
I know you put a lot of thought into this and of course it has been discussed before. I think JAB was into
sabermetrics before that word was ever invented. People universally give him credit for the 2-3 zone but where he really shines is his record with the team leading at the 5 minute mark. I have no idea what it is, but considering his overall record, it has to be pretty good.

It's almost an art form to take the air out of the ball on the offensive side of the ball but by setting up the defense, it allows the players to force the other team to use more clock, instead of less clock. I find it very intriguing when we get down to the five minute mark with a lead. That's how he forces less possessions.
 
Joined
Jan 7, 2012
Messages
28
Likes
79
#6
I agree with the OP, and I don't think it's an either/or proposition. I think we could feint enough pressure on the inbounds to cause opposing PG to have to pick up the ball, starting the clock, all while getting back into the zone easily before the offense gets into the half court. It's a win/win. The clock runs while the ball gets up court, AND our defense gets set. The key is the pressure is just a feint, enough to require the PG to pick up the ball.
 

STEVEHOLT

There are FIVE letters in the name BLAIN.
Joined
Aug 27, 2011
Messages
6,796
Likes
8,501
#7
"People universally give him credit for the 2-3 zone but where he really shines is his record with the team leading at the 5 minute mark. I have no idea what it is, but considering his overall record, it has to be pretty good."

This is some sweet speculation. Paraphrasing "he has a great record leading at the five minute mark"

"i have no idea what that record is"

Most teams have great records with leads at the five minute mark. I would say probably every team in the entire country has a winning record in such situations...and I would bet that the records are quite strong in fact.

that stat only means anything when compared to what the expected record would have been with leads at the 5 minute mark relative to the actual record. Since that data is not being presented here, the contention is meaningless.
 

Lucid

Last One Picked
Joined
Feb 24, 2017
Messages
1,148
Likes
2,427
#9
Having the zone set up slows down the pace of the opposing offense more than token pressure in the back court.
That's an interesting contention, and I'm inclined to agree with it. I'll be the first to admit that it frustrates me every time we allow the opposing team to just roll the ball up the court. My wife hears, "Why don't we make them pick up the ball?!?!"

I really wonder if, based on your contention, having the zone set up actually forces the offense to use more seconds than putting a little pressure on the ball would? Likely yes, but I wonder if there's any data on that?
 

UnderHisOwnPower

Ask yourself, do I feel lucky?
Joined
Sep 19, 2011
Messages
1,978
Likes
2,967
#10
"People universally give him credit for the 2-3 zone but where he really shines is his record with the team leading at the 5 minute mark. I have no idea what it is, but considering his overall record, it has to be pretty good."

This is some sweet speculation. Paraphrasing "he has a great record leading at the five minute mark"

"i have no idea what that record is"

Most teams have great records with leads at the five minute mark. I would say probably every team in the entire country has a winning record in such situations...and I would bet that the records are quite strong in fact.

that stat only means anything when compared to what the expected record would have been with leads at the 5 minute mark relative to the actual record. Since that data is not being presented here, the contention is meaningless.
But this has already been settled. There was a graphic shared last month where all the D1 coaches were charted by how they do with a lead at the 5 minute mark. JB was off to the far, high right of the graph all by himself. There's no dispute he excels in those situations.
 
Joined
Sep 6, 2012
Messages
1,105
Likes
1,030
#11
I agree with the OP, and I don't think it's an either/or proposition. I think we could feint enough pressure on the inbounds to cause opposing PG to have to pick up the ball, starting the clock, all while getting back into the zone easily before the offense gets into the half court. It's a win/win. The clock runs while the ball gets up court, AND our defense gets set. The key is the pressure is just a feint, enough to require the PG to pick up the ball.
Yes Both! That was my whole point!
 
Joined
Sep 6, 2012
Messages
1,105
Likes
1,030
#12
But this has already been settled. There was a graphic shared last month where all the D1 coaches were charted by how they do with a lead at the 5 minute mark. JB was off to the far, high right of the graph all by himself. There's no dispute he excels in those situations.
Yes but even better and less heart attacks??
Hmm? Hmm?
Just 3/4 court pressure only to force the inbound then set the D like normal.
 
.
Top Bottom