Wildhack is on the Clock

[HyattsCuse]

You keep referencing Melo but don't provide any specifics. Personally, it's difficult to put much stock in your perspective because of that.

Do you know actual things that Melo will do next season with his son here? Or is this just conjecture that his presence will be good, writ large?

None of this should be state secrets. If Melo's going to toss absurd money into NIL or facilties then SU should welcome that news "leaking" out. Why wouldn't they want potential recruits and transfers to know that?

Unfortunately I have a hunch there's a lot of conjecture and not much concrete known. Which is fine.

My take:

Did you watch Kiyan's commitment show? It was exciting. Not a whole lot of that to latch on to as a fan at the moment, but I know that got me pumped. The whole Anthony family is at least giving off the vibe they are ready to be much more involved with Syracuse again and put Syracuse back on the map. Sure, we may not know exactly what the family will provide, but we know his name is on the building. The assumption is he'll help out with money somehow. I don't think it's a huge jump to conclude that will happen despite lack of specifics.

Also, Red = Melo/Kiyan also because relationships still matter in recruiting. Typically, when a coach gets canned or leaves a program, the committed recruits reconsider and many go elsewhere. Why? Because their primary reason for going to a school is the relationship with the coach. I think that's still the case even with NIL involved. If Red gets canned, whoever replaces him has to re-recruit Kiyan. Fran did it pretty successfully on the football side, but by no means an easy thing to do.

I know I am not a fan of Red's coaching and ready for a change, but I think there is a case of "FOMO" if Red were to be canned and Kiyan went elsewhere. We wouldn't get to experience whatever Kiyan coming to Syracuse brings. If Red stays, it's a virtually certainty we get to see whatever is going to happen actually happen with Kiyan's arrival.

 

[kcsu]

I agree Red gets another year. That said, every school in the country can say they are a PG and a 5 away from making the tournament (and making the tournament is not that impressive). This incoming class better deliver and Melo better deliver too or that third year could be costly.

100%

 

[kcsu]

My take:

Did you watch Kiyan's commitment show? It was exciting. Not a whole lot of that to latch on to as a fan at the moment, but I know that got me pumped. The whole Anthony family is at least giving off the vibe they are ready to be much more involved with Syracuse again and put Syracuse back on the map. Sure, we may not know exactly what the family will provide, but we know his name is on the building. The assumption is he'll help out with money somehow. I don't think it's a huge jump to conclude that will happen despite lack of specifics.

Also, Red = Melo/Kiyan also because relationships still matter in recruiting. Typically, when a coach gets canned or leaves a program, the committed recruits reconsider and many go elsewhere. Why? Because their primary reason for going to a school is the relationship with the coach. I think that's still the case even with NIL involved. If Red gets canned, whoever replaces him has to re-recruit Kiyan. Fran did it pretty successfully on the football side, but by no means an easy thing to do.

I know I am not a fan of Red's coaching and ready for a change, but I think there is a case of "FOMO" if Red were to be canned and Kiyan went elsewhere. We wouldn't get to experience whatever Kiyan coming to Syracuse brings.

Spot on.

 

[kingtidge]

You keep referencing Melo but don't provide any specifics. Personally, it's difficult to put much stock in your perspective because of that.

Do you know actual things that Melo will do next season with his son here? Or is this just conjecture that his presence will be good, writ large?

None of this should be state secrets. If Melo's going to toss absurd money into NIL or facilties then SU should welcome that news "leaking" out. Why wouldn't they want potential recruits and transfers to know that?

Unfortunately I have a hunch there's a lot of conjecture and not much concrete known. Which is fine.

If you were a multi-millionaire and one of the best players to ever don the shirt for Cuse, and you have your kid coming here with 100% NBA aspirations, would you be giving things a second look if the program was in a complete freefall dumpster fire from a coaching perspective and trending towards a historically terrible year??... or would you simply say "It all good" on blind faith and stick with the plan??

Melo will want his kid at a program where he'll get coached up for the NBA methinks, and his hopes and dreams for his son likely outweigh any "loyalty to the program" he may have, especially if we are the same dumpster fire at the end of this season that we are now and tallied single-digit wins.

Just a guess, but I don't think they had USC and Musselman as choice # 2 simply for appearances.

 

[RF2044]

I think that it absolutely has to be taken into consideration. He is without a doubt one of the best basketball players to ever wear Orange. His name is on the building. He has been a huge supporter of JB and the staff for years. He bleeds orange and is as influential an Alum as there is to the program. In short, the AD had better be taking his thoughts into consideration when it comes to the SU basketball program.
Do you think that John discussed Fran with important boosters and former players before his hiring? Do you think that maybe JL was consulted with maybe even had a meeting or two with Fran prior to his being hired?
In today's NIL world important boosters need to be consulted and I'm sure if JW is looking to make a move to replace Red Melos input will be asked for and given proper weight.

I'm tired of hearing about what we have to do because someone "bleeds orange." That was the kind of thinking that got us into this mess in the first place, with Red.

Here's what I think: I like Kiyan, as a solid recruit. But he isn't elite, and he probably isn't a program-changer. If he's collateral damage, so be it. I would like to believe that Anthony's support is to the INSTITUTION of Syracuse University, and not predicated upon Red. But if ADJW is strong armed into retaining a failing coach because of Kiyan Anthony, then I'd say that he has learned very little from thinking outside of the box and hiring someone like Fran Brown.

NIL is certainly important. And the idea that Anthony might funnel a lot of money into our program's NIL is an appealing thought. But that's all it is -- conjecture. I hope it comes true, so does everybody else. But pointing to it as a reason that we need to stand pat is a false dichotomy.

And what about other boosters? What about sagging attendance? Should those not be more important indicators informing how to proceed?

Finally, consulting with people, and soliciting their input on a key personnel change IS NOT the same thing as being held hostage by them, or having to hire who they want. That's the difference, and why I think it is evolving into board "fact."

The truth of the matter is, we don't know HOW Carmelo will react if Red is replaced. He might be upset, or he might be excited about his kid not going down on a sinking ship.

Maybe he'll pump MORE $$$ into the program if such a change is made. Nobody knows. Which is why artificially constraining out choices based upon hypotheticals that may or may not be true doesn't make sense.

 

[Scooch]

I don't think that anyone on this board actually knows what Melo is going to do possibly with the exception of CTO. What he has done in the past is significant. My assumption is that he will continue to support the program at the same level probably more now that his son is going to be playing for it.

Thanks! I appreciate the reply.

 

[Orangezoo]

What has Kline proven?

Right now his resume is what stands out as does his connections. Speaking of him as the only asset isn’t saying he’s proven to be successful but if you are selling the program he’s the shiny new addition that still sells given his NBA connections and that the program has someone capable in this new role required in the NIL era

 

[DilemaCuse]

I know I am not a fan of Red's coaching and ready for a change, but I think there is a case of "FOMO" if Red were to be canned and Kiyan went elsewhere. We wouldn't get to experience whatever Kiyan coming to Syracuse brings. If Red stays, it's a virtually certainty we get to see whatever is going to happen actually happen with Kiyan's arrival.

He's not Cooper Flagg or AJ Dybantsa or going to have anywhere close to the immediate impact his Dad had.

I just find it hard to justify continuing with a failed coach for a modest Top 40 player.

I want a coach that has a blueprint for winning and has more substance to hiring him than retaining a failing coach because he has a recruit or 2 coming in.

 

[Scooch]

Got it. I doubt anyone is disputing that. The issue is that you have repeatedly implied that no Red = no Melo. That's the reasoning I am questioning.

He literally posted a week or 2 ago that "people don't understand" how important Melo's involvement with the program will be. All I wanted to hear was that statement was based on actual knowledge of concrete things. But it wasn't. It was conjecture.

Which is fine. I conject here all the time.

But it's also critical to separate conjecture from known upcoming actions when we're discussing the future of the program.

My mission to push people to talk about facts and not vague insider [waves hand] things will continue.

 

[kcsu]

He's not Cooper Flagg or AJ Dybantsa or going to have anywhere close to the immediate impact his Dad had.

I just find it hard to justify continuing with a failed coach for a modest Top 40 player.

I want a coach that has a blueprint for winning and has more substance to hiring him than retaining a failing coach because he has a recruit or 2 coming in.

What you are missing is that it is not just for the player.

 

[Scooch]

My take:

Did you watch Kiyan's commitment show? It was exciting. Not a whole lot of that to latch on to as a fan at the moment, but I know that got me pumped. The whole Anthony family is at least giving off the vibe they are ready to be much more involved with Syracuse again and put Syracuse back on the map. Sure, we may not know exactly what the family will provide, but we know his name is on the building. The assumption is he'll help out with money somehow. I don't think it's a huge jump to conclude that will happen despite lack of specifics.

Also, Red = Melo/Kiyan also because relationships still matter in recruiting. Typically, when a coach gets canned or leaves a program, the committed recruits reconsider and many go elsewhere. Why? Because their primary reason for going to a school is the relationship with the coach. I think that's still the case even with NIL involved. If Red gets canned, whoever replaces him has to re-recruit Kiyan. Fran did it pretty successfully on the football side, but by no means an easy thing to do.

I know I am not a fan of Red's coaching and ready for a change, but I think there is a case of "FOMO" if Red were to be canned and Kiyan went elsewhere. We wouldn't get to experience whatever Kiyan coming to Syracuse brings. If Red stays, it's a virtually certainty we get to see whatever is going to happen actually happen with Kiyan's arrival.

And that's all fair. Like I said a post ago, I just want to hear people state whether something is a known fact or conjecture.

All we got re: the Anthony's is conjecture.

 

[kcsu]

He literally posted a week or 2 ago that "people don't understand" how important Melo's involvement with the program will be. All I wanted to hear was that statement was based on actual knowledge of concrete things. But it wasn't. It was conjecture.

Which is fine. I conject here all the time.

But it's also critical to separate conjecture from known upcoming actions when we're discussing the future of the program.

My mission to push people to talk about facts and not vague insider [waves hand] things will continue.

There are very few facts on a fan board. Most of what we have are opinions which lead to this post. It's what makes it interesting. My take is that keeping Red=keeping Melo and the current recruits. I think that we have a better chance at winning next season with that combination than getting a new coach. It's just an opinion. One that I will defend to the death

 

[DilemaCuse]

I'm tired of hearing about what we have to do because someone "bleeds orange." That was the kind of thinking that got us into this mess in the first place, with Red.

Here's what I think: I like Kiyan, as a solid recruit. But he isn't elite, and he probably isn't a program-changer. If he's collateral damage, so be it. I would like to believe that Anthony's support is to the INSTITUTION of Syracuse University, and not predicated upon Red. But if ADJW is strong armed into retaining a failing coach because of Kiyan Anthony, then I'd say that he has learned very little from thinking outside of the box and hiring someone like Fran Brown.

NIL is certainly important. And the idea that Anthony might funnel a lot of money into our program's NIL is an appealing thought. But that's all it is -- conjecture. I hope it comes true, so does everybody else. But pointing to it as a reason that we need to stand pat is a false dichotomy.

And what about other boosters? What about sagging attendance? Should those not be more important indicators informing how to proceed?

Finally, consulting with people, and soliciting their input on a key personnel change IS NOT the same thing as being held hostage by them, or having to hire who they want. That's the difference, and why I think it is evolving into board "fact."

The truth of the matter is, we don't know HOW Carmelo will react if Red is replaced. He might be upset, or he might be excited about his kid not going down on a sinking ship.

Maybe he'll pump MORE $$$ into the program if such a change is made. Nobody knows. Which is why artificially constraining out choices based upon hypotheticals that may or may not be true doesn't make sense.

RF, your last couple posts have been spot on. Some are not seeing the big picture and are just grasping at certain things to justify status quo. Some sound like Red was Carmelo teammate at SU, when it was Gerry, now if Gerry was in the HC spot, I could see this conversation maybe being a little different

 

[Scooch]

There are very few facts on a fan board. Most of what we have are opinions which lead to this post. It's what makes it interesting. My take is that keeping Red=keeping Melo and the current recruits. I think that we have a better chance at winning next season with that combination than getting a new coach. It's just an opinion. One that I will defend to the death

That's fine, man. Opine away!

Like I've said repeatedly, I just don't want people to imply that their opinions are based on some insider knowledge that won't be shared.

When you said "people don't understand" you meant that you felt a certain way about the possible benefits of Melo's presence. Not that there were known upcoming actions that Melo is going to take.

As you can tell, I have a pterodactyl sized bug up my keister about vague posting by supposed insiders. It's gotten wayyyyy out of hand here, on topics from NIL to facilities to Melo.

 

[kingtidge]

There are very few facts on a fan board. Most of what we have are opinions which lead to this post. It's what makes it interesting. My take is that keeping Red=keeping Melo and the current recruits. I think that we have a better chance at winning next season with that combination than getting a new coach. It's just an opinion. One that I will defend to the death

So Melo has unhindered blind faith in Red no matter what happens this year??

That is basically what you are saying, yes??

Say we're 9-22 at the end of the season, are bottom of the conference, and aren't even in the conference tournament...

Say Freeman, Moore, and others immediately enter the portal at the end of March...

Melo/Kiyan stay committed damn the torpedoes??

 

[Cusefan95]

Got it. I doubt anyone is disputing that. The issue is that you have repeatedly implied that no Red = no Melo. That's the reasoning I am questioning.

No Red = no Melo is utterly insane when you consider kcsu agreed that Red is likely not the long term solution. So based on the chance that Melo will abandon the program immediately, he's willing to accept keeping Red on for some indeterminate time so Melo stays involved. But if Red isn't the long term solution, Syracuse will need to move on from him then anyway - so doesn't that means we're just delaying the inevitable of Melo abandoning the program? What this plan is can be summed up as "keep Red, get Melo's money and pray to God for a miracle that it somehow works out". It would be possible to have a worse plan - but it would be difficult to articulate it.

Bad leaders get stuck worrying about the risks of making a change while ignoring or minimizing the risks of not making a change. And sometimes, even when a change is absolutely the right decision - who the replacement is ends up being a bad decision (see: Coach P/GERG). We still have lots of folks who would make terrible leaders second guessing letting Coach P go because GERG was a disaster.

I'd much rather see Syracuse fire Red, have Melo get upset and take his money elsewhere, and literally every other bad outcome people that want to keep Red are worried about if we move on to a new coach than see them get totally focused on those risks and keep Red for the next decade as we slide further and further into DePaul territory. If the next guy doesn't work out - so be it. At least we'd know the school recognizes when a change needs to be made and don't act like cowards refusing to pull the trigger.

 

[DilemaCuse]

What you are missing is that it is not just for the player.

I agree to a point.
Lets play it out, this year bombs. Next year its better but still not good enough with 16 wins around .500, missed tourney.
Kiyan has a typical freshman year.
In your scenario do you keep Red for a 4th year because of this? Like at what point is appeasing someone outside of the Athletic Dept and BOT more important than hiring a qualified coach who could have long lasting success?
Play the long game, not the short game.

 

[phil77]

Melo cant be watching the games this year and thinking I can't wait for my son to go play for that coach. He is going to build on his skill set and get him ready for the league.

I think the name Syracuse is more important to Melo than the name Autry. If Autry was coaching at USC his son wouldn't be going to USC. It was always going to Syracuse and it didn't matter who the coach was or is.

 

[gmoney44]

I think that Melo and Red are friends.

I love Melo as much as any SU fan but if he gives the program “if he goes, we go” ultimatum we should still move on from Red. He’s that bad.

 

[Cusefan95]

Melo cant be watching the games this year and thinking I can't wait for my team to go play for that coach. He is going to build on his skill set and get him ready for the league.

I think the name Syracuse is more important to Melo than the name Autry. If Autry was coaching at USC his son wouldn't be going to USC. It was always going to Syracuse and it didn't matter who the coach was or is.

A problem with guys who are highly talented in one area is they often overestimate their abilities in other areas. LeBron thought he could construct an NBA teams as well as any GM - he's actually created a mediocre team with his meddling that is going to be hamstrung for years after he leaves.

There's a really good chance that Melo thinks he and his son can bring success to Syracuse with Red as coach. That's probably wishful thinking at best. If/when that starts to go sideways next year - especially if his son's draft stock is declining due to mediocre coaching - what's the likelihood Melo stays loyal to Red? And Syracuse?

When you've allowed your athletics department to become beholden to individual boosters, it almost never ends well for the school. If we're so beholden to Melo that we cannot let a clearly incompetent coach go, stick a fork in Syracuse basketball - its done.

 

[HyattsCuse]

He's not Cooper Flagg or AJ Dybantsa or going to have anywhere close to the immediate impact his Dad had.

I just find it hard to justify continuing with a failed coach for a modest Top 40 player.

I want a coach that has a blueprint for winning and has more substance to hiring him than retaining a failing coach because he has a recruit or 2 coming in.

The part you bolded in my post was referring to much more than just what Kiyan may bring to the court as a player. I'm right there with you and RF as far not being impressed at all with what Red has done so far as our head coach. Despite that though, there is a part of me that really wants to see Kiyan suit up for Syracuse on the court AND see what the Anthony family has in mind to help us get back to success.

Maybe they help us get a couple portal guys we wouldn't be in the running for or a bench coach or just help promote the program by reaching out to other boosters. Who knows. That's about the only excitement I have with Cuse basketball these days is the suspense of seeing how that plays out.

So there's that tug of war between wanting Red gone (especially if a guy like Hodgson is available), but then we don't see Kiyan at Syracuse. That's what I mean by FOMO = fear of missing out. I don't have a lot of optimism that we could get both.

 

[kingtidge]

I love Melo as much as any SU fan but if he gives the program “if he goes, we go” ultimatum we should still move on from Red. He’s that bad.

If things continue as trending, I think it's more likely Melo goes to Wildhack with "We're no longer on board for this. Kiyan is going to USC. You need to let him out of the NLI. How can we make that happen?"

Anyone that thinks he's gonna put his loyalty to the program in front of his son's best opportunity for the future is smoking something...

Now maybe Wildhack has a contingency plan b counter of ... "What if [insert name] was coach here next year?? Would you stay on?"

Who knows??

 

[kcsu]

So Melo has unhindered blind faith in Red no matter what happens this year??

That is basically what you are saying, yes??

Say we're 9-22 at the end of the season, are bottom of the conference, and aren't even in the conference tournament...

Say Freeman, Moore, and others immediately enter the portal at the end of March...

Melo/Kiyan stay committed damn the torpedoes??

read... i said that it is my opinion. I have no clue. For all I know Melo can't stand Red but likes SU so much that he encouraged his son to sign with Syracuse not caring at all who the coach was going to be,

 

[DilemaCuse]

The part you bolded in my post was referring to much more than just what Kiyan may bring to the court as a player. I'm right there with you and RF as far not being impressed at all with what Red has done so far as our head coach. Despite that though, there is a part of me that really wants to see Kiyan suit up for Syracuse on the court AND see what the Anthony family has in mind to help us get back to success.

Maybe they help us get a couple portal guys we wouldn't be in the running for or a bench coach or just help promote the program by reaching out to other boosters. Who knows. That's about the only excitement I have with Cuse basketball these days is the suspense of seeing how that plays out.

So there's that tug of war between wanting Red gone (especially if a guy like Hodgson is available), but then we don't see Kiyan at Syracuse. That's what I mean by FOMO = fear of missing out. I don't have a lot of optimism that we could get both.

I will be honest, I don't know how Kiyan or the fact Melo will be watching in the stands gets us veteran portal guys who are older than him, have been in college to come to Cuse. Maybe it happens, great.

Can Melo get Mike Woodson out of IU to come to SU like Calipari from Tucky to Arky or Enfield from USC to SMU?

Which got me thinking, what did USC get for the Bronny James experience? Isaiah Collier was there and the team was a circus, finished in last place and Endfield had to skip town to SMU due to the failed season. It basically was a disaster and we are already trending that way.

 

[Red2003]

If you were a multi-millionaire and one of the best players to ever don the shirt for Cuse, and you have your kid coming here with 100% NBA aspirations, would you be giving things a second look if the program was in a complete freefall dumpster fire from a coaching perspective and trending towards a historically terrible year??... or would you simply say "It all good" on blind faith and stick with the plan??

Melo will want his kid at a program where he'll get coached up for the NBA methinks, and his hopes and dreams for his son likely outweigh any "loyalty to the program" he may have, especially if we are the same dumpster fire at the end of this season that we are now and tallied single-digit wins.

Just a guess, but I don't think they had USC and Musselman as choice # 2 simply for appearances.

I'm not sure Kiyan has the NBA aspirations you think he has and I'm sure he knows he's not near a 1 and done. Or if he does he doesn't need the money and can do something else and make just as much money.

Kiyan is worth 40 mil on his own with his businesses. That's not inheritance when his parents die. This is his money now. He's been getting NIL deals for years now and his own brands and clothing lines down in the City.

These recruits watched us squeak out a 2 point win against Lemoyne then signed. I don't think they signed up expecting a final 4 team next year. Their minds can change and I think Autry is cooked for what its worth.
My username is for my Dogs name by the way and he was called Red long before Autry became coach.