Wildhack is on the Clock

[grepal]

It wasn’t harsh. All of our current metrics point to being an embarrassment right now compared to what we’re accustomed to. But there’s still a small pocket of people on this board who can’t accept reality.

All this may turn out true and if it is there is still bright hope for the future. Look what Louisville is doing since Kenny Payne was jettisoned. If Red is not the Guy, and I hope the jury is out on that, Syracuse can come back quickly in the NIL era. I always point to Coach K and his start at Duke as inspiration for Red to turn things around. Even his harshest critics need to admit he is recruiting better than our recent teams before he became HCAA

 

[Orangezoo]

Cannot speak to that. Guys like Bulldong04 maybe can. Can tell you for sure they've hit the road with a very detailed pitch (work of Alex Kline) to a lot of high worth individuals (and dummies like me to fill out a room).

To me Kline is the most valuable asset this program has in terms of any sales pitch you can offer to an investor at this point. The real struggle is what else do you have in the sales pitch?

Results/development are not there with the staff being brand new and the examples even going back to under Boeheim being ok but not standing out.

Facilities are now middle of the road and the Dome is great but with a boring weak ACC there are fewer featured matchups in conference play as well.

We need some results and evidence of competence on the court to pair with having someone like Kline…

 

[djcon57]

I always point to Coach K and his start at Duke as inspiration for Red to turn things around.

You point to an example from 45 years ago?

Has anything changed since then?

 

[RF2044]

Red was never the long term answer. He was one of the architects of the program's steady, 8 year decline. But delimiting our choices by restricting ourselves to in-house candidates, and not doing proper due diligence, was a terrible choice, given where our program was when JB was finally forced to step down.

The reason that some were optimistic when he got hired was based upon hope that:

• The "real" problem was JB, tying the assistant coaches' hands
• Red could relate to players better -- a much needed pendulum swing away from his out-of-touch predecessor
• Red would be a stud recruiter, who would elevate the talent level on the team
• Adding Straughn would help Red get back to Syracuse being able to land top flight talent
• We were going to own Team Takeover, thanks to Straughn -- both in terms of HS prospects and portal transfers

And coming out of the box, things looked promising. Red said all the right things. He expressed a desire to shift away from an antiquated defensive system. We landed Donnie Freeman and highly touted transfer Chance Westry, suggesting that the recruiting "hype" was real. And people got excited.

But even last season, the cracks in the foundation began to show. We got blown out in many of our losses, and defense overall was poor. There were locker room issues, a player had to be tossed off the team in January, players overtly defied him during games - culminating in a bizarre incident where Mintz got in a shouting match with Red DURING a game. In the offseason, numerous key contributors portalled out, and the large group of players who portalled in have had mixed results. We also missed out on several PG prospects we prioritized, as well as several TTO guys in 2023 and 2024.

And as the 2024-2025 season we've slipped ANOTHER notch, and are trending toward being one of the worst teams in a down ACC conference.

In retrospect, making a continuity hire was a really poor choice, at a time when the program's level of performance didn't warrant it -- and in fact, required a CHANGE in the then-status quo.

And now our program is unbelievably in a worse spot than when it was when JB practically burned things to the ground in 2023.

 

[5OutFred]

And as the 2024-2025 season we've slipped ANOTHER notch, and are trending toward being one of the worst teams in a down ACC conference.

Something I think is lost on some folks (not poster): this team isn't poor by Syracuse standards, coupled with a down year in a poor conference.

This team, thus far, is one of the five worst teams in all of power 4. Not just going to miss the tournament, but considered one the the worst teams in the nation by NET of power conf, our peers. It's not Louisville, but it's not as far as people would like to admit.

To think change isn't needed, to me, is more bizarre than another year of "let's wait and see." See what, exactly? There's enough evidence to suggest Red can't do this job (and that's okay) but almost none to suggest he can do it.

 

[RF2044]

All this may turn out true and if it is there is still bright hope for the future. Look what Louisville is doing since Kenny Payne was jettisoned. If Red is not the Guy, and I hope the jury is out on that, Syracuse can come back quickly in the NIL era. I always point to Coach K and his start at Duke as inspiration for Red to turn things around. Even his harshest critics need to admit he is recruiting better than our recent teams before he became HCAA

Here's the problem I have with this perspective. I think we can all agree that if Red were showing any level of coaching aptitude, but we were still losing, then patience might be the right approach -- a la what Duke showed with Coach K his first few seasons.

However, Red looks subpar [putting it mildly] in every respect. This isn't a team playing well on both sides of the ball that just lack the horses -- we routinely get outcoached, outplayed, and we look unprepared.

What are you [or anybody else] seeing from Red or this coaching staff that gives any indication that he just needs more time to recruit his way out of the hole?

 

[baggerbob]

I would've been disappointed if you didn't respond exactly as you have.

You are a great poster, and I agree with your takes most of the time.
But we are in a precarious position right now.
There seems to be very shortly a new round of conference shifting coming up.
Fran is preparing us on the football side.
Basketball has to be back as a top 25 team in order for us to get that Big invite.
We can't afford another year of Red.
A third bad year and we very well could be left behind in a dying conference.

 

[Blanko97]

To me Kline is the most valuable asset this program has in terms of any sales pitch you can offer to an investor at this point. The real struggle is what else do you have in the sales pitch?

Results/development are not there with the staff being brand new and the examples even going back to under Boeheim being ok but not standing out.

Facilities are now middle of the road and the Dome is great but with a boring weak ACC there are fewer featured matchups in conference play as well.

We need some results and evidence of competence on the court to pair with having someone like Kline…

Have we seen any successes on the NIL side to point toward kline making an impact? I get he came in with a lot of fan fare but shouldn't we be seeing some early results on the NIL side at this point?

 

[RF2044]

Have we seen any successes on the NIL side to point toward kline making an impact? I get he came in with a lot of fan fare but shouldn't we be seeing some early results on the NIL side at this point?

In fairness, he's only been here a few months. Not sure what kind of "results" we can expect so soon.

Plus, wasn't Kline instrumental in helping us identify / land both Petar and Fennel?

 

[Scooch]

100% Red isn't the long-term answer. I'm not supporting Red beyond the fact that I want Melo involved and I believe he won't be if Red is fired after this year. If not for Melo I would fire him today

You keep referencing Melo but don't provide any specifics. Personally, it's difficult to put much stock in your perspective because of that.

Do you know actual things that Melo will do next season with his son here? Or is this just conjecture that his presence will be good, writ large?

None of this should be state secrets. If Melo's going to toss absurd money into NIL or facilties then SU should welcome that news "leaking" out. Why wouldn't they want potential recruits and transfers to know that?

Unfortunately I have a hunch there's a lot of conjecture and not much concrete known. Which is fine.

 

[Blanko97]

In fairness, he's only been here a few months. Not sure what kind of "results" we can expect so soon.

Plus, wasn't Kline instrumental in helping us identify / land both Petar and Fennel?

If he's as big of a get as it seems, id expect some returns by now. He has the football success to sell already.

As for that identification, I'm not sure you hang your hat on identifying Petar quite yet.

 

[kcsu]

I think you are overestimating the Red-Melo connection. The look on Kiyan's face and the roar from the crowd when he was announced seemed like THE connection. There is a mutual affinity between Melo (and, by extension, Kiyan) and all things SU, including the fan's admiration. Of course, Red is a part of that affinity. But it runs much deeper than Red, IMO.

I think that Melo and Red are friends.

 

[kcsu]

You keep referencing Melo but don't provide any specifics. Personally, it's difficult to put much stock in your perspective because of that.

Do you know actual things that Melo will do next season with his son here? Or is this just conjecture that his presence will be good, writ large?

None of this should be state secrets. If Melo's going to toss absurd money into NIL or facilties then SU should welcome that news "leaking" out. Why wouldn't they want potential recruits and transfers to know that?

Unfortunately I have a hunch there's a lot of conjecture and not much concrete known. Which is fine.

I don't think that anyone on this board actually knows what Melo is going to do possibly with the exception of CTO. What he has done in the past is significant. My assumption is that he will continue to support the program at the same level probably more now that his son is going to be playing for it.

 

[MSOrange]

In fairness, he's only been here a few months. Not sure what kind of "results" we can expect so soon.

Plus, wasn't Kline instrumental in helping us identify / land both Petar and Fennel?

I think you are right about Petar and Fennel, but I expect once the transfer portal opens after the season will be the first real opportunity to really see what impact line Alex has had.

 

[Fly Rodder]

You point to an example from 45 years ago?

Has anything changed since then?

K is one of the top-5 coaches of all time and had a starting salary at Duke of $40k.

 

[kcsu]

You are a great poster, and I agree with your takes most of the time.
But we are in a precarious position right now.
There seems to be very shortly a new round of conference shifting coming up.
Fran is preparing us on the football side.
Basketball has to be back as a top 25 team in order for us to get that Big invite.
We can't afford another year of Red.
A third bad year and we very well could be left behind in a dying conference.

My two cents is based completely on Melos influence and importance to our program. We already lost significant money with Adam being shown the door. Melo has the clout and the capital to really help the program. I can see a scenario where things do get much better next season with Red coaching. Talent is 80% of winning basketball and JB will agree. Yes, some coaches are fantastic but for the most part it is talent that wins games not coaches. Red can recruit that is a given. The new GM is going to hopefully make sure we don't waste resources on kids Like Lampkin and Bell. We have three excellent players coming in next year and a core group that if we can keep together should be solid. We are in my opinion a PG and 5 away from making the tournament next year. If Red goes, we are looking at the following.
Melo and his kid as well as the other recruits are gone. JJ is gone, Maybe the entire team. Now if we all think that some mid major stud is going to come to SU and influence Melo the other recruits and some of the existing kids to stick. Great. We keep the talent and get a better coach. If, however, the cupboard is bare and all we get is a new mid major coach I'm not rolling the dice on that call vs Red for another year. After next season if we don't make the dance go ahead and clean house. My bet is on talent vs coaching which is why I'm for giving Red another season.

 

[grepal]

Here's the problem I have with this perspective. I think we can all agree that if Red were showing any level of coaching aptitude, but we were still losing, then patience might be the right approach -- a la what Duke showed with Coach K his first few seasons.

However, Red looks subpar [putting it mildly] in every respect. This isn't a team playing well on both sides of the ball that just lack the horses -- we routinely get outcoached, outplayed, and we look unprepared.

What are you [or anybody else] seeing from Red or this coaching staff that gives any indication that he just needs more time to recruit his way out of the hole?

Just recruiting chops. Coach K came to Duke but had experience as a head coach at Army so the X and O comparison and game management should have been better from him. Frankly, i did not watch enough or any of Duke hoops during those years so I have no idea how good or bad a coach he was then. I'll say this for him, with the talent he had at his disposal I am not sure he had the NCAAT record that matched his gaudy players. He had 1 championship in his last decade as a head coach and he had more takent to work with than anyone with possibly Kentucky being the only program near the same levelof talent.

 

[RF2044]

You keep referencing Melo but don't provide any specifics. Personally, it's difficult to put much stock in your perspective because of that.

Do you know actual things that Melo will do next season with his son here? Or is this just conjecture that his presence will be good, writ large?

None of this should be state secrets. If Melo's going to toss absurd money into NIL or facilties then SU should welcome that news "leaking" out. Why wouldn't they want potential recruits and transfers to know that?

Unfortunately I have a hunch there's a lot of conjecture and not much concrete known. Which is fine.

Board "fact," IMHO. Carmelo's kid committed to play for Syracuse under Red the HC, so...

Truthfully, we have no idea what the Anthony clan would do if Red were replaced. Perhaps they'd feel worse about having Kiyan come here if this season continues to unfold the way it has. Maybe they'd be supportive of a change, so that their kid can be part of the program's resurgence instead of it's middling decline.

Or maybe they would reconsider entirely if Red is replaced.

I find the first set of scenarios equally as possible as the worrisome one. And I'm not sure that we should have what the Anthony's choose to do factor into the AD's decision AT ALL about what to do with Red after the season.

 

[Fly Rodder]

Unfortunately I have a hunch there's a lot of conjecture

I think it is similar to the posts that Buddy wasn't going to be on scholarship so that JB effectively had an extra roster spot. That was quickly proven to be not true.

 

[oldpinepoint]

I question Red’s ability to recruit the portal which is becoming more important, this year is a disaster

 

[DilemaCuse]

Some great posts on here,

This program is totally lost and rudderless and desperate if an incoming recruits father (albeit an SU legend) has this much power over the program as some have alluded to.

Somebody posted, What happens if we have to bench Kiyan and his mom is there? oh vey

That isn't a strong program if its seceding control to outsiders like this. Its like a politician that's corrupted to lobbying firms.

It needs a strong personality with a track record of success that commands respect. I think its clear Red has lost that from alot of folks. Yet some still want him to have a 3rd year? For what? to be a puppet?

 

[Newhouser]

My two cents is based completely on Melos influence and importance to our program. We already lost significant money with Adam being shown the door. Melo has the clout and the capital to really help the program. I can see a scenario where things do get much better next season with Red coaching. Talent is 80% of winning basketball and JB will agree. Yes, some coaches are fantastic but for the most part it is talent that wins games not coaches. Red can recruit that is a given. The new GM is going to hopefully make sure we don't waste resources on kids Like Lampkin and Bell. We have three excellent players coming in next year and a core group that if we can keep together should be solid. We are in my opinion a PG and 5 away from making the tournament next year. If Red goes, we are looking at the following.
Melo and his kid as well as the other recruits are gone. JJ is gone, Maybe the entire team. Now if we all think that some mid major stud is going to come to SU and influence Melo the other recruits and some of the existing kids to stick. Great. We keep the talent and get a better coach. If, however, the cupboard is bare and all we get is a new mid major coach I'm not rolling the dice on that call vs Red for another year. After next season if we don't make the dance go ahead and clean house. My bet is on talent vs coaching which is why I'm for giving Red another season.

I agree Red gets another year. That said, every school in the country can say they are a PG and a 5 away from making the tournament (and making the tournament is not that impressive). This incoming class better deliver and Melo better deliver too or that third year could be costly.

 

[kirbivore]

To me Kline is the most valuable asset this program has in terms of any sales pitch you can offer to an investor at this point. The real struggle is what else do you have in the sales pitch?

Results/development are not there with the staff being brand new and the examples even going back to under Boeheim being ok but not standing out.

Facilities are now middle of the road and the Dome is great but with a boring weak ACC there are fewer featured matchups in conference play as well.

We need some results and evidence of competence on the court to pair with having someone like Kline…

What has Kline proven?

 

[007]

I think that Melo and Red are friends.

Got it. I doubt anyone is disputing that. The issue is that you have repeatedly implied that no Red = no Melo. That's the reasoning I am questioning.

 

[kcsu]

Board "fact," IMHO. Carmelo's kid committed to play for Syracuse under Red the HC, so...

Truthfully, we have no idea what the Anthony clan would do if Red were replaced. Perhaps they'd feel worse about having Kiyan come here if this season continues to unfold the way it has. Maybe they'd be supportive of a change, so that their kid can be part of the program's resurgence instead of it's middling decline.

Or maybe they would reconsider entirely if Red is replaced.

I find the first set of scenarios equally as possible as the worrisome one. And I'm not sure that we should have what the Anthony's choose to do factor into the AD's decision AT ALL about what to do with Red after the season.

I think that it absolutely has to be taken into consideration. He is without a doubt one of the best basketball players to ever wear Orange. His name is on the building. He has been a huge supporter of JB and the staff for years. He bleeds orange and is as influential an Alum as there is to the program. In short, the AD had better be taking his thoughts into consideration when it comes to the SU basketball program.
Do you think that John discussed Fran with important boosters and former players before his hiring? Do you think that maybe JL was consulted with maybe even had a meeting or two with Fran prior to his being hired?
In today's NIL world important boosters need to be consulted and I'm sure if JW is looking to make a move to replace Red Melos input will be asked for and given proper weight.