Won't be a popular post but its the truth | Syracusefan.com

Won't be a popular post but its the truth

We Are Syracuse

We Are Syracuse

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I said earlier in a thread this year about JB's problem of coaching offensively in the half court. A lot of posters replied saying he hasn't had the PG or talent in recent years to have an efficient half court offense. Well this year, the talent is not the problem and this should be a solid team in the half court.

In past years, in the half court offensively, Syracuse has ranked:
  • 139th efficiency wise in (2015-2016) .893 PPP (Points Per Possession)
  • 173rd efficiency wise in (2014-2015) .853 PPP :bang:
  • 123rd efficiency wise in (2013-2014) .9 PPP
  • 161st efficiency wise in (2012-2013) .845 PPP
  • 76th efficiency wise in (2011-2012) .894 PPP

So, you're telling me, in the past five years Syracuse has basically been below the bottom half in the ENTIRE NCAA DIVISION 1 in half court efficiency every single season. That to me, is extremely concerning and definitely is JB's biggest problem as a Coach. I was at the game yesterday, the lack of spacing, concepts, and details were baffling. We produced almost zero open looks the entire game on the offensive end. That falls squarely on coaching and the ability to create advantages for your players. USC had to guard no long closeouts, no post touches, no quality PNR concepts. Syracuse was incredibly easy to guard yesterday. Syracuse would literally come down on possessions and have our wings cross the floor and that would be the only offensive action we would have for the first 20 seconds in the shot clock. JB HAS TO LOOK INTO THIS AND CREATE OPEN LOOKS FOR HIS PLAYERS. THIS TEAM IS FAR TOO TALENTED TO RANK 150th IN THE HALF COURT EFFICIENCY WISE!!!! I saw a lot of posts throwing our players under the bus yesterday. It's not them. It's primarily coaching. JB is one of the best defensive coaches in the country. 2-3 zone is not the problem people!!!! It's the ability to produce in the half court that has been Syracuse's biggest problem as shown in the evidence above. The staff HAS to do a better job creating actions that are harder to guard. Running your shooters off screens on the baseline for 25 seconds is not hard to guard. Incorporate some PnR concepts and spacing. Run some ballscreen sets out of horns (everyone does this now). The spacing in the offense stinks and we have no actions. The staff simply has to do a better job coaching in this aspect if this team wants to make a run in the tournament.
 
We Are Syracuse said:
I said earlier in a thread this year about JB's problem of coaching offensively in the half court. A lot of posters replied saying he hasn't had the PG or talent in recent years to have an efficient half court offense. Well this year, the talent is not the problem and this should be a solid team in the half court.

In past years, in the half court offensively, Syracuse has ranked:
  • 139th efficiency wise in (2015-2016) .893 PPP (Points Per Possession)
  • 173rd efficiency wise in (2014-2015) .853 PPP :bang:
  • 123rd efficiency wise in (2013-2014) .9 PPP
  • 161st efficiency wise in (2012-2013) .845 PPP
  • 76th efficiency wise in (2011-2012) .894 PPP

So, you're telling me, in the past five years Syracuse has basically been below the bottom half in the ENTIRE NCAA DIVISION 1 in half court efficiency every single season. That to me, is extremely concerning and definitely is JB's biggest problem as a Coach. I was at the game yesterday, the lack of spacing, concepts, and details were baffling. We produced almost zero open looks the entire game on the offensive end. That falls squarely on coaching and the ability to create advantages for your players. USC had to guard no long closeouts, no post touches, no quality PNR concepts. Syracuse was incredibly easy to guard yesterday. Syracuse would literally come down on possessions and have our wings cross the floor and that would be the only offensive action we would have for the first 20 seconds in the shot clock. JB HAS TO LOOK INTO THIS AND CREATE OPEN LOOKS FOR HIS PLAYERS. THIS TEAM IS FAR TOO TALENTED TO RANK 150th IN THE HALF COURT EFFICIENCY WISE!!!! I saw a lot of posts throwing our players under the bus yesterday. It's not them. It's primarily coaching. JB is one of the best defensive coaches in the country. 2-3 zone is not the problem people!!!! It's the ability to produce in the half court that has been Syracuse's biggest problem as shown in the evidence above. The staff HAS to do a better job creating actions that are harder to guard. Running your shooters off screens on the baseline for 25 seconds is not hard to guard. Incorporate some PnR concepts and spacing. Run some ballscreen sets out of horns (everyone does this now). The spacing in the offense stinks and we have no actions. The staff simply has to do a better job coaching in this aspect if this team wants to make a run in the tournament.
Expand...
Agree, somewhat.
First of all the numbers don't lie. It's obvious over the last few years especially, that our half-court offense has been putrid. We primarily run basic screens that any physical defense, a la Pitt or a S. Carolina, can fight thru and disrupt the passing lanes. This often forces a lot of one-on-one as the shot clock winds down. At most, JB is willing to utilize a double screen to get a hot shooter some space, but good defensive switching teams like UVA for instance, will always smother the lanes and shut that down.
Secondly, JB obviously believes in this type of offensive philosophy and will not change, period. I remember back in the late 80's how he'd be criticized for having so much talent, that all he needed was to "roll the ball out there and let his teams play". JB and some players defended his philosophy by saying that his system gave his players the "freedom" to create offense on their own. When you have a megastar like Melo, that's all well and good. But if you lack players who can create their own offense, you're gonna have problems, especially if you have only one or two guys, which good teams can shut down.
If we run into another Butler, Pitt, or S Carolina-like defense, we WILL struggle. That's been our history.
 
DoctorBombay said:
Agree, somewhat.
Secondly, JB obviously believes in this type of offensive philosophy and will not change, period.
Expand...
That's it.
After 40 years does anyone seriously expect him to change his style?

All this time the Orange have basically had one set play...the double screen catch & shoot for the SG.
(Andy Rautins ran this to perfection...the ultimate being his 3 to tie in the third OT of the 6OT UConn game).
 
We Are Syracuse said:
I said earlier in a thread this year about JB's problem of coaching offensively in the half court. A lot of posters replied saying he hasn't had the PG or talent in recent years to have an efficient half court offense. Well this year, the talent is not the problem and this should be a solid team in the half court.

In past years, in the half court offensively, Syracuse has ranked:
  • 139th efficiency wise in (2015-2016) .893 PPP (Points Per Possession)
  • 173rd efficiency wise in (2014-2015) .853 PPP :bang:
  • 123rd efficiency wise in (2013-2014) .9 PPP
  • 161st efficiency wise in (2012-2013) .845 PPP
  • 76th efficiency wise in (2011-2012) .894 PPP

So, you're telling me, in the past five years Syracuse has basically been below the bottom half in the ENTIRE NCAA DIVISION 1 in half court efficiency every single season. That to me, is extremely concerning and definitely is JB's biggest problem as a Coach. I was at the game yesterday, the lack of spacing, concepts, and details were baffling. We produced almost zero open looks the entire game on the offensive end. That falls squarely on coaching and the ability to create advantages for your players. USC had to guard no long closeouts, no post touches, no quality PNR concepts. Syracuse was incredibly easy to guard yesterday. Syracuse would literally come down on possessions and have our wings cross the floor and that would be the only offensive action we would have for the first 20 seconds in the shot clock. JB HAS TO LOOK INTO THIS AND CREATE OPEN LOOKS FOR HIS PLAYERS. THIS TEAM IS FAR TOO TALENTED TO RANK 150th IN THE HALF COURT EFFICIENCY WISE!!!! I saw a lot of posts throwing our players under the bus yesterday. It's not them. It's primarily coaching. JB is one of the best defensive coaches in the country. 2-3 zone is not the problem people!!!! It's the ability to produce in the half court that has been Syracuse's biggest problem as shown in the evidence above. The staff HAS to do a better job creating actions that are harder to guard. Running your shooters off screens on the baseline for 25 seconds is not hard to guard. Incorporate some PnR concepts and spacing. Run some ballscreen sets out of horns (everyone does this now). The spacing in the offense stinks and we have no actions. The staff simply has to do a better job coaching in this aspect if this team wants to make a run in the tournament.
Expand...
Dude. As we saw just a few weeks ago, Facts are irrelevant. Come back when you can tell us what we want to hear.
 
Col. Bleep said:
That's it.
After 40 years does anyone seriously expect him to change his style?

All this time the Orange have basically had one set play...the double screen catch & shoot for the SG.
(Andy Rautins ran this to perfection...the ultimate being his 3 to tie in the third OT of the 6OT UConn game).
Expand...
Uh, I would hope he does considering his half court offense is around last of the ACC the past 5 years. Yes he has 2 final fours, which is fantastic. On the other hand, could also have more than 1 national championship in 40 years of coaching if he adjusted his "style" according to his teams' strengths and weaknesses. He is an incredible recruiter and always has great players. NO REASON they should be this poor in the half court. Numbers do not lie. They stink in the half court offensively.
 
SWC75 said:
I like constant movement- it forces the defenders to move, too and that opens up possibilities.
Expand...
Im a transition into secondary PnR guy but with concepts and principles to it. Need more details also. We do not set contact screens. We do not roll to the rim hard. We do not set the ball screen up well. We do not run action into a ballscreen. We do not run roll/replace when we do run the pick and roll. Our spacing is weak. Just overall Syracuse is painful to watch in the half court situation offensively. Defensively, they are one of the best in the half court
 
We Are Syracuse said:
Im a transition into secondary PnR guy but with concepts and principles to it. Need more details also. We do not set contact screens. We do not roll to the rim hard. We do not set the ball screen up well. We do not run action into a ballscreen. We do not run roll/replace when we do run the pick and roll. Our spacing is weak. Just overall Syracuse is painful to watch in the half court situation offensively. Defensively, they are one of the best in the half court
Expand...
JB has a radio show every week. Give him a call and tell him or ask him why he doesn't do the things you suggest we don't.
 
There is no way a reasonable person would say SU hasn't been in the top half of D1 offenses at least once over the last 5 years. I prefer Kenpom's adjusted Offensive Efficiency which accounts for schedule(not all Ds are equal) by calculating what your ppp would be against an "average" defense.

15-16) 111.6 50th nationally / 12th ACC
14-15) 104.8 118th nationally/ 10th ACC
13-14) 114.0 29th nationally / 4th ACC
12-13) 111.4 25th nationally / 5th BE
11-12) 115.1 7th nationally / 1st BE

16-17) 110.4 38th nationally / 12th ACC*

Not trying to argue strongly against your point, but I feel like these stats offer a more accurate representation of the offensive efficiency.

*Current season is either a small sample size or incorporates some data from last year. Can't remember and not gonna look it up.
 
Sherlocked said:
There is no way a reasonable person would say SU hasn't been in the top half of D1 offenses at least once over the last 5 years. I prefer Kenpom's adjusted Offensive Efficiency which accounts for schedule(not all Ds are equal) by calculating what your ppp would be against an "average" defense.

15-16) 111.6 50th nationally / 12th ACC
14-15) 104.8 118th nationally/ 10th ACC
13-14) 114.0 29th nationally / 4th ACC
12-13) 111.4 25th nationally / 5th BE
11-12) 115.1 7th nationally / 1st BE

16-17) 110.4 38th nationally / 12th ACC*

Not trying to argue strongly against your point, but I feel like these stats offer a more accurate representation of the offensive efficiency.

*Current season is either a small sample size or incorporates some data from last year. Can't remember and not gonna look it up.
Expand...
Disagree with this. Just about every coach and analyst uses PPP when looking at offensive efficiency. Kenpom takes into account transition offense which I'm not talking about. They score in transition because his halfcourt defense is tremendous and that's an advantage of the zone. The half court offense numbers do not lie. Those numbers are very poor for the talent we have had in those years.
 
We Are Syracuse said:
Disagree with this. Just about every coach and analyst uses PPP when looking at offensive efficiency. Kenpom takes into account transition offense which I'm not talking about. They score in transition because his halfcourt defense is tremendous and that's an advantage of the zone. The half court offense numbers do not lie. Those numbers are very poor for the talent we have had in those years.
Expand...
I don't see all of these points you are talking about in transition. That is one of my pet peeves.
 
Boeheim basically banked the future of his grandkids when he handed the keys over to the playground-style guards like Pearl and Sherm, and the occasional inventive Moten-like player. I recall thumbing through a season preview mag (Athlon?) at Wegmans in the late 1980s, and catching a comment that point guard at Syracuse "is one of the better jobs in college basketball."

It's true that he could do tons more with the chalkboard on offense, but I can't under any circumstance imagine anyone over the age of 70 suddelnly slamming it into 4th gear, job load-wise, without sacrificing some other aspect of his day (although he could, theoretically, alter his "15 hour work day" by sacrificing that hour he spends putting up his feet in the office while waiting for those obscure call-in show hosts to be ready for his 10 minute interview in favor of gathering the troops for an injection of new strategies).

The OP is rife with player movement ideas, and rightly so, but for decades I wished Boeheim would conjure up a little of his inner Ivy League coach (which we now know was there, based on his son...) and at least work a couple extra passes in, which would be great this year with 5 dangerous outside shooters. Like others said, turning Trevor Cooney into the Tasmanian Devil didn't necessarily lead to a net gain. The beauty of the passed ball is that it travels faster than even Gary Payton-level talent in 22nd century high-tops.
 
We Are Syracuse said:
Disagree with this. Just about every coach and analyst uses PPP when looking at offensive efficiency. Kenpom takes into account transition offense which I'm not talking about. They score in transition because his halfcourt defense is tremendous and that's an advantage of the zone. The half court offense numbers do not lie. Those numbers are very poor for the talent we have had in those years.
Expand...
I still think the numbers should be adjusted to account for schedule. Could you shoot me a link where I can take a look at these stats?

I feel like it would take a ton of manpower to not only record stats but account for halfcourt vs transition, and if you're doing that you might as well track deflections and the like. If this is publicly available, I imagine it's behind a pay-wall, but I'd still love to take a look.
 
tbonezone said:
and by "constant movement" i hope you don't mean cooney running in futile circles with a lone defender chasing.
Expand...


I mean five guys moving constantly, except when they are setting picks or screens, (and then moving off them when they have been used by other players). Orange is the new fast!.
 
This is college ball you are lucky to have 2 one on one players extremely lucky to have 3. In the nba they have 4-5 guys out there. Yesterday we had 0. Maybe 0-2 teams a year can run a nba style offense at this level.

For what little I know Turnovers lose big games, but bad shots are also the equivalent of a turnover. These are the things that have killed us in march from the vermont game, to the dayton game, to the texas a+m game, to the marquette game, to the butler game. Last year however it was the big hole at center. Then again had our defense not been so amazing the triche mcw year, and had we not had a killer press that some teams were bad at beating last year, we weren't making those final fours.

Another thing to consider other teams play man 2 man against the cupcake schedule makes a difference in steals runouts getting fouled. aggressive play early on. That is why teams like butler scored like 150 points a couple of times last year.
 
Last edited:
Guards from Flynn to Scoop to MCW to Waiters have all mentioned how they loved JB's free flowing offense. Even listen to recruits talk about it. It struggles against those tough in your face M2M D's, but it's what JB thinks maximizes the talent.
 
We Are Syracuse said:
I said earlier in a thread this year about JB's problem of coaching offensively in the half court. A lot of posters replied saying he hasn't had the PG or talent in recent years to have an efficient half court offense. Well this year, the talent is not the problem and this should be a solid team in the half court.

In past years, in the half court offensively, Syracuse has ranked:
  • 139th efficiency wise in (2015-2016) .893 PPP (Points Per Possession)
  • 173rd efficiency wise in (2014-2015) .853 PPP :bang:
  • 123rd efficiency wise in (2013-2014) .9 PPP
  • 161st efficiency wise in (2012-2013) .845 PPP
  • 76th efficiency wise in (2011-2012) .894 PPP

So, you're telling me, in the past five years Syracuse has basically been below the bottom half in the ENTIRE NCAA DIVISION 1 in half court efficiency every single season. That to me, is extremely concerning and definitely is JB's biggest problem as a Coach. I was at the game yesterday, the lack of spacing, concepts, and details were baffling. We produced almost zero open looks the entire game on the offensive end. That falls squarely on coaching and the ability to create advantages for your players. USC had to guard no long closeouts, no post touches, no quality PNR concepts. Syracuse was incredibly easy to guard yesterday. Syracuse would literally come down on possessions and have our wings cross the floor and that would be the only offensive action we would have for the first 20 seconds in the shot clock. JB HAS TO LOOK INTO THIS AND CREATE OPEN LOOKS FOR HIS PLAYERS. THIS TEAM IS FAR TOO TALENTED TO RANK 150th IN THE HALF COURT EFFICIENCY WISE!!!! I saw a lot of posts throwing our players under the bus yesterday. It's not them. It's primarily coaching. JB is one of the best defensive coaches in the country. 2-3 zone is not the problem people!!!! It's the ability to produce in the half court that has been Syracuse's biggest problem as shown in the evidence above. The staff HAS to do a better job creating actions that are harder to guard. Running your shooters off screens on the baseline for 25 seconds is not hard to guard. Incorporate some PnR concepts and spacing. Run some ballscreen sets out of horns (everyone does this now). The spacing in the offense stinks and we have no actions. The staff simply has to do a better job coaching in this aspect if this team wants to make a run in the tournament.
Expand...

I got ripped for basically saying the same thing back in Ennis freshman year saying we run an offense slower than the big 10 teams did. Ennis was only doing what he was told to do.I remember later in the year that Jake said the same thing as I was saying and got praised for it. The big men in the last decade are being recruited to play the zone first and are limited in what they can do offensively seems like all the time now. Look at Chuckwa and his skills and everyone here said he would be great in the zone.We need some solid center skills offensively to take the pressure off our guards and open up the offense.

For once i would love to get a center averaging well over 20 points a game out of high school instead of ones averaging 10-13 PPG.
 
retro44 said:
I got ripped for basically saying the same thing back in Ennis freshman year saying we run an offense slower than the big 10 teams did. Ennis was only doing what he was told to do.I remember later in the year that Jake said the same thing as I was saying and got praised for it. The big men in the last decade are being recruited to play the zone first and are limited in what they can do offensively seems like all the time now. Look at Chuckwa and his skills and everyone here said he would be great in the zone.We need some solid center skills offensively to take the pressure off our guards and open up the offense.

For once i would love to get a center averaging well over 20 points a game out of high school instead of ones averaging 10-13 PPG.
Expand...
I get your point, but how many of those are there? Not many. I mean, how many total players average well over 20 PPG?
 
orange79 said:
I get your point, but how many of those are there? Not many. I mean, how many total players average well over 20 PPG?
Expand...

In high school I'm sure there are a ton of them.

We've recruited some centers who just couldn't put the ball in the basket. Chin was one of them. I still don't know why we ever recruited him.
 
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