Worst Rotations in College Hoops (Article)

[RealMcNeil]

Bees is right. You don’t understand basketball if you can’t see the offensive sets we do run. My issue with JB is that the offense lacks complexity and diversity, it’s the same boring handful of sets we’ve been running forever, and we often don’t run them crisply or have constant motion. And after they run through them, we just resort to high ball screens and dribble drive. One play not included in this article is the horns set, where two bigs come up to the elbows of the free throw line and set staggered ball screens. I really hope we go after an offensive-minded coach like Matt Painter after JB retires.

Syracuse basketball's five go-to offensive plays

For years, Syracuse has run the same basic five offensive plays. Here they are, broken down, to demonstrate the simplicity in the approach.

theathletic.com

100% - lots of ISO / DHO / motion sets, but they are offensive sets that are called. What I don’t get is why there isn’t a bit more creativity to find the back door cutters like UNC and MSU have feasted on for years.

 

[djcon57]

Ok, so? Because it's all missing the forest for the trees. Does it matter how someone defines a play vs a set vs a simple ISO dribble-drive offense? 20 years has to do with the fact that like the article said, Syracuse is exceptionally easy to scout for. It's a tired system that has stagnated for years and the head coach isn't interested in changing because reasons (e.g., this used to work wonders back in the day). OK, how about a set means that the players are moving in agreed upon patterns to score the basketball. Great. whoopity do.

Yeah I don't disagree with much of that, but I didn't suggest any what you just posted about.

Just that a set doesnt require 3 passes

 

[Orangezoo]

Brown and Hima need to replace the failed Benny and Bell experiment. First off the bench should be Copeland. if fed sedatives. Jesse to PF. We have no choice as other than Brown there is no one acceptable to play foward.
We need to win matchups. Deadmen could win matchups with our starting forwards.

Lol we've been through this. Hima and Jesse on at the same time ... no. And also it's not common in the NBA as I clearly pointed out in that other thread

 

[Otto'd]

Bees is right. You don’t understand basketball if you can’t see the offensive sets we do run. My issue with JB is that the offense lacks complexity and diversity, it’s the same boring handful of sets we’ve been running forever, and we often don’t run them crisply or have constant motion. And after they run through them, we just resort to high ball screens and dribble drive. One play not included in this article is the horns set, where two bigs come up to the elbows of the free throw line and set staggered ball screens. I really hope we go after an offensive-minded coach like Matt Painter after JB retires.

Syracuse basketball's five go-to offensive plays

For years, Syracuse has run the same basic five offensive plays. Here they are, broken down, to demonstrate the simplicity in the approach.

theathletic.com

Matt Painter is a great offensive coach. His teams never won crap though, because defense is an afterthought. Purdue is #1 in polls right now, they wont advance past sweet 16.

 

[OrangeDW]

Lol we've been through this. Hima and Jesse on at the same time ... no. And also it's not common in the NBA as I clearly pointed out in that other thread

He is ALL the way dug in on playing 2 centers. Lol.

 

[CardiacCuse]

The issue is that no player has been consistent game to game as he states. We lost lots of offense last year with Buddy, Jimmy and Cole, all starters, who scored an average of 46.8 points a game between them. What 3 players on our current squad can replace those points? Same with rebounds who replaces the 16.4 rebounds per game we lost? That is really what the staff is looking at and why JB is all over it explaining in his press conferences.

Joe and Jesse are scoring together a total of 3.8 points more per game than last year and Jesse/Girard are rebounding 4.5 more rebounds/game. Even counting on playing better defense than last year that’s a lot of scoring and rebounding to just match last years‘ numbers .Between Benny, Bell, Brown, Taylor, JBA, Copeland, Hima etc we have to find enough consistency to score and rebound. We have poorer 3 point shooting (.377 vs.328) this year so we need even more rebounds and good scoring 2 point possessions to make up for it.

yeah well it's true...but the coach rotates the players as if they are.

there's enough pieces and weapons to mix and matxh according to game-state to optimize chances of winning. ...moreso than just sticking with "the guys"

if the goal was be the best possible team by march - sticking with "the guys" makes sense...but that could alos mean march will be irrelevant by the time it gets here.

needs to adjust and be more adaptable in-game imo

for instance, when girard is physically taken out of games...he needs to play a lot less vs those specific matchups imo

 

[AlaskaSU]

Not having at least one of Benny Bell or Taylor out on the court will lead to major offensive problems. Especially when both the pg and back up pg both can not and will not shoot from any sort of range.

Joe still likes to try and create something off the dribble and after four years of reps it is not a completely useless thing to try. If we don't have one of Benny Bell or Taylor out there then he has literally nobody to kick it out to, except a guy that the D knows will not shoot from range. Mintz only has joe to kick it out to when he drives in the lane. Everyone else is no threat so the D may as well get bunched in and around the paint without consequences. We saw it a lot vs Pitt. A front court of Brown Jesse and either Hima Ajak or Copeland is an offensive black hole unless they create enough second chances on the boards. I don't think that would be sustainable.

Bell and Benny is sustainable? Play to your strength. We might be strong in the paint. Sure beats being weak inside and out.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

Bees is right. You don’t understand basketball if you can’t see the offensive sets we do run. My issue with JB is that the offense lacks complexity and diversity, it’s the same boring handful of sets we’ve been running forever, and we often don’t run them crisply or have constant motion. And after they run through them, we just resort to high ball screens and dribble drive. One play not included in this article is the horns set, where two bigs come up to the elbows of the free throw line and set staggered ball screens. I really hope we go after an offensive-minded coach like Matt Painter after JB retires.

Syracuse basketball's five go-to offensive plays

For years, Syracuse has run the same basic five offensive plays. Here they are, broken down, to demonstrate the simplicity in the approach.

theathletic.com

Which one is the one Joe stands still for because he knows he ain’t getting the ball?

 

[AlaskaSU]

He is ALL the way dug in on playing 2 centers. Lol.

Only because we only have one foward who deserves playing time. The situation is desperate.

 

[tbonezone]

any ACC squad we face with a decent in your face guard will shut joe down easily. unless they zone us...

 

[tbonezone]

benny has skills . benny needs tutoring. too bad we have only pg 's on the bench. (who never made the pros)

 

[tbonezone]

Well yeah. You got to follow along with the thread.

The question was "can we agree a set is at least 3 passes ?"

I explained, no.

Not sure what 20+ year has to do with it

while there is no stat for passes made before baskets... you did watch lesser teams carve us up like turkeys with ball movement this very season ? we don't move the ball well. agree or disagree. i see ISO.

 

[djcon57]

while there is no stat for passes made before baskets... you did watch lesser teams carve us up like turkeys with ball movement this very season ? we don't move the ball well. agree or disagree. i see ISO.

We don't move the ball well, in general, agreed.

We do run sets.

 

[Cuse181]

rich and privileged don't make you right. we play ISO ball. anyone with eyes sees it. most possessions are 1 pass or less. that's what we call ISO. no coaching needed. just 1st round talent. which we lack.

It does make him informed though

He has experience of hearing plays called out to lean on, why argue with him when he clearly is more informed via his experience?

 

[rrlbees]

Which one is the one Joe stands still for because he knows he ain’t getting the ball?

One of the sets is the 2 and the 3 standing at each wing. You’ll see it 10 times a game. It’s to try and open the middle for either a Mintz penetration of getting the ball to Jesse. When nothing is happening you’ll often see the 2 and the 3 cutting through the lane to the opposite sides.

 

[hoopsupstate]

Calipari is getting slammed at Kentucky for running an antiquated offense. They say he hasn’t adjusted his offense for todays game. I think we can say the same thing for JB. There’s just not enough( movement to keep the defense honest.

 

[Scooch]

Bees is right. You don’t understand basketball if you can’t see the offensive sets we do run. My issue with JB is that the offense lacks complexity and diversity, it’s the same boring handful of sets we’ve been running forever, and we often don’t run them crisply or have constant motion. And after they run through them, we just resort to high ball screens and dribble drive. One play not included in this article is the horns set, where two bigs come up to the elbows of the free throw line and set staggered ball screens. I really hope we go after an offensive-minded coach like Matt Painter after JB retires.

Syracuse basketball's five go-to offensive plays

For years, Syracuse has run the same basic five offensive plays. Here they are, broken down, to demonstrate the simplicity in the approach.

theathletic.com

Thanks for sharing that piece. I’m an Athletic subscriber but I missed it when it first ran, and it’s a really helpful explainer of JB’s offensive philosophy.

I tend to subscribe to the “KISS” approach for most things in life. But in this case, it really does necessitate that we have high-level players on the court at all times. And that’s been an infrequent occurrence for many years running.

 

[PauliePeppas]

Sets are run yes…do these sets also lack any creativity /adjustments? Yes…..

 

[Eagles20]

100% - lots of ISO / DHO / motion sets, but they are offensive sets that are called. What I don’t get is why there isn’t a bit more creativity to find the back door cutters like UNC and MSU have feasted on for years.

I think people are confusing offensive sets and your base offense. Generally every trip down the court teams run a set first and then transition into your base offense. The problem we consistently have is that our players struggle to read and react to the defense in our base offense. Generally over the course of a season players start to understand the wrinkles and secondary options in a base offense that lead to scoring opportunities. Our players struggle to do the basic options in our motion offense.

 

[Sherman20]

It’s not semantics. You said we don’t run any sets. We do. Off the top of my head some I have seen/heard are one fist, two fists, 1, 2, blue, Arizona. There’s more but that’s what I can remember right now and maybe with this years team some of those aren’t run. But I’ll let you know next time I sit there. But we run sets/plays.

The plays they ran two years ago are included in that Athletic article I shared a link to above.

 

[Sherman20]

JB prefers simplicity in offense and defense. You can debate whether that’s a good strategy or not (I have my opinions). But here’s a choice few grafs from the Athletic article:

For years, Syracuse has run one of the simplest offenses in the country. In turn, SU is not a difficult team to scout for. Many possessions, Syracuse doesn’t run a true set play, instead using high-ball screens or a pass-and-cut motion to put players in positions to score. But when SU calls out plays, it’s easy to know what’s coming. The challenge, however, is that knowing what’s coming and stopping the action are two different things. Several times, Rutgers and Buffalo players called out SU’s plays and stopped them. Other times, they called out the play, yet the Orange still scored.

Here are breakdowns of Syracuse’s five set plays. The simplicity in both the actions and their corresponding names is striking, but Syracuse is running a quality offense that can be tough to stop. SU ranks 31st in the country in efficiency, per KenPom.com. Last year SU finished 21st, part of a recent surge in offensive efficiency not seen in the program since the early 2010s. “The offense is maybe the simplest in college basketball,” former Syracuse center Roosevelt Bouie says. “But there’s a lot of genius in just letting your players make plays, rather than be tied up with plays and diagrams.

“It’s organized pickup.”

Syracuse basketball's five go-to offensive plays

For years, Syracuse has run the same basic five offensive plays. Here they are, broken down, to demonstrate the simplicity in the approach.

theathletic.com

 

[rrlbees]

The plays they ran two years ago are included in that Athletic article I shared a link to above.

Yea I read it. A couple I mentioned are in there but they run more than just those 5. Even on TV you can see at times when one fist is held up or JB is motioning for the motion offense. But the point remains, we run sets/plays.

 

[VA2NY]

We don't move the ball well, in general, agreed.

We do run sets.

Very very basic and easy to disrupt sets. Think multiple screens, having everyone moving (instead of watching pg iso), reversal of the ball, drive and pass out to open perimeter guys, and making the defense work a little like teams do to us would be a big improvement

 

[tbonezone]

Calipari is getting slammed at Kentucky for running an antiquated offense.

Calipari beats you with superior talent not coaching. that is the way we USED to win.

 

[kirbivore]

any ACC squad we face with a decent in your face guard will shut joe down easily. unless they zone us...

any coach that zones SU should be fired on the spot