WR group

[kcsu]

we played a weak secondary last night the guys have to catch the ball. Need pena back and i would give Gil more run. Hatcher needs to catch half as good as he blocks and pray Jones is back

 

[FRANKIEFAN]

The drops on contested catches were annoying but not surprising. My biggest issue was the lack of separation on routes besides Go’s. No one was open over the middle.

I thought we had good separation early on in the game. At the end I think it was a combination of play calling, being on the road, frustration with the drops, and Shrader single handedly getting a couple TDs that they didn't run the routes well bc they knew the ball wasn't coming to them.

Can't have Allen and Shrader taking a beating against Army I'd hope we have 40+ pass attempts and the group rebounds. Shrader still threw the ball 28 times yesterday despite all the rushing yards.

 

[NYCCuse826]

I think they had too many drops but we are talented and there were open guys everywhere. I like what we have and who.

Doesn't matter if you're open if you can't catch. Last night was a real concern.

 

[SmilinBob]

It's not so much the drops that bother me it's the lack of physicality. Fighting off holds, tugs and shoves is going to be how this team goes next level WR wise.

Shrader wasn't extremely sharp passing wise either but to win games ya gotta make the plays.

I think they'll improve as the year progresses, especially if Allen can start getting some holes.

WR's had some sweet blocks though and that was fantastic.

 

[RF2044]

Well, wanted to circle back to close the loop on this thread after the debate leading up to the Purdue game.

Mixed bag for my prognostications.

Not surprisingly, throwing the ball was a major part of our game plan [versus running inside on their big DL / LBs]. And as I expected, for the most part the WRs did a good job of getting open and sometimes beating the Purdue DBs long. Purdue's press coverage at the LOS was generally ineffective, and our guys easily got past them to the extent that Purdue resorted to grabbing / pass interference in the second half to prevent themselves from getting beaten. That's all good.

But I completely didn't expect them to have so many drops. So mea cupla there -- never saw that being a problem. The barometer isn't perfection [i.e., catching every ball], but they simply have to do better. Even though in the end, they got the job done -- the WRs left a lot of meat on the bone and probably cost us 7 - 14 points with drops.

Need to clean up that inconsistency ASAP. Glad the coaches have something to gripe on during film sessions.

But in the main, despite the drops, I think the Purdue game was a solid indicator that this group can be good. But to badly paraphrase Dino, now they must do it all the time and be CONSISTENTLY good.

 

[GoSU96]

Charting the incompletes.

Ball on WR

1st possession - Jones gets the ball dislodged from behind on a curl inside the hashes.
Possession ended in a punt
2nd possession - Hatcher, blanketed catchable ball broken up
Hatcher - gets behind the defense on a go down the right sideline, only uncontested drop of the game.
Possession ended in a TD
3rd possession- Allen broken up on a swing pass, didn’t secure ball
Possession ended in punt
4th - Brown gets turned around on a deep out, can’t really see if it was catchable. play negated by roughing
Jones - Very, very difficult attempt, would have been a high end catch.
Possession ended in a TD
5th - Alford - uncatchable miss in the endzone, should have been PI.
Brown - 7yd curl, broken up with hit from behind, negated by PI
Possession ended in missed FG
6th Hatcher - ball dislodged in blanked coverage.
Possession ended in a TD
8th - Brown, Int, ball was inside and the db had position
9th - Alford - Got behind Db on go route, held which resulted in PI, couldn’t get to the ball
Brown - High pass, resulted in PI
Possession ended in a TD
10th Alford - uncatchable high, resulted in PI
Possession ended in punt

Misses on Shrader
4th intended for Alford, not close
7th intended for Alford , batted down before it got to him
7th intended for Adams, missed long
9th intended for Allen, thrown in ground intentionally
10th intended for Allen, throwaway out of bounds
10th intended for Brown , batted down before it got to him

Bottomline, Hatcher is the only guy that had a bad game.

Jones gets an incomplete. The play he got hurt on would have been a circus catch.

Allen had one strip, he caught everything else that was on him.

Brown had more good than bad. The Int was more on where the throw was. He is going to struggle if it’s physical at the point of the catch.

Alford had a really good game.

Were they perfect, far from it, but they weren’t dropping wide open catches all over the field either.

 

[23Zone]

Anybody know if Jones practiced this week?

 

[upperdeck]

I think the drops, were for the most par,t for catches on the high side of nice catches. Would be nice to closer to 50% on those.

What you cant tell on TV is who was running open, because thats a big deal if teams are gonna play us close enough to make catches that hard. In the 2 home games there were lots of guys open that the ball did not get thrown to them.

I do know there were a couple that had they been led differently the guys would have been wide open

 

[Crusty]

What has to be of concern is beating press coverage from ACC teams. Purdue did a good job and our results were not encouraging.

Hopefully we will get better as the season goes along.

 

[RF2044]

What has to be of concern is beating press coverage from ACC teams. Purdue did a good job and our results were not encouraging.

Hopefully we will get better as the season goes along.

I don't know about that, going to push back here -- we beat the press coverage all game long.

That wasn't the issue.

There's a reason Pur-don't spent the entire second half committing PI 15 yard penalties. And it sure wasn't because they were effectively jamming our receivers at the line of scrimmage.

 

[dwilmont44]

I don't know about that, going to push back here -- we beat the press coverage all game long.

That wasn't the issue.

There's a reason Pur-don't spent the entire second half committing PI 15 yard penalties. And it sure wasn't because they were effectively jamming our receivers at the line of scrimmage.

We had two completions to WRs in the 2nd half, both to Brown. 3 DPIs to your point. Obviously Shrader was killing it on the ground and Allen was doing well too. But was Shrader running because he couldn't find anyone open or was he running because he saw how wide open the field was?

 

[upperdeck]

We had two completions to WRs in the 2nd half, both to Brown. 3 DPIs to your point. Obviously Shrader was killing it on the ground and Allen was doing well too. But was Shrader running because he couldn't find anyone open or was he running because he saw how wide open the field was?

When teams played zone this yr we played called it to death.. When teams played man early we had guys win the 1-1 game.. Purdue played man and guys didnt get as open but they left huge running lanes.

As much as Shrader ran he had a bunch of runs he barely got hit which is a good thing.

I think Purdue will be above avg of the Ds we will see, if the WRs can take another step forward they can be a solid group. they wont always be running free so you have to make some of those harder catches.

FSU/Clem will have better D

BC/Pitt/UNC/Wake/Purdue will all be about the same level depening on what the focus of the D is that week.

Army/WMU/Colg/VT/GT will have worse

The key is do we have the game to match up against the Ds that are better in one area than another.

Oline Oline Oline

They passed the first test even if they were a little lacking at times in the run game for the RBs.

 

[kcsu]

Charting the incompletes.

Ball on WR

1st possession - Jones gets the ball dislodged from behind on a curl inside the hashes.
Possession ended in a punt
2nd possession - Hatcher, blanketed catchable ball broken up
Hatcher - gets behind the defense on a go down the right sideline, only uncontested drop of the game.
Possession ended in a TD
3rd possession- Allen broken up on a swing pass, didn’t secure ball
Possession ended in punt
4th - Brown gets turned around on a deep out, can’t really see if it was catchable. play negated by roughing
Jones - Very, very difficult attempt, would have been a high end catch.
Possession ended in a TD
5th - Alford - uncatchable miss in the endzone, should have been PI.
Brown - 7yd curl, broken up with hit from behind, negated by PI
Possession ended in missed FG
6th Hatcher - ball dislodged in blanked coverage.
Possession ended in a TD
8th - Brown, Int, ball was inside and the db had position
9th - Alford - Got behind Db on go route, held which resulted in PI, couldn’t get to the ball
Brown - High pass, resulted in PI
Possession ended in a TD
10th Alford - uncatchable high, resulted in PI
Possession ended in punt

Misses on Shrader
4th intended for Alford, not close
7th intended for Alford , batted down before it got to him
7th intended for Adams, missed long
9th intended for Allen, thrown in ground intentionally
10th intended for Allen, throwaway out of bounds
10th intended for Brown , batted down before it got to him

Bottomline, Hatcher is the only guy that had a bad game.

Jones gets an incomplete. The play he got hurt on would have been a circus catch.

Allen had one strip, he caught everything else that was on him.

Brown had more good than bad. The Int was more on where the throw was. He is going to struggle if it’s physical at the point of the catch.

Alford had a really good game.

Were they perfect, far from it, but they weren’t dropping wide open catches all over the field either.

I watched the game again last night. Hatcher blocks well, get separation, but lacks upper body strength. His drops were bad.
Alford seems to give up on routes. I want him using his body more. He seems to let bad plays linger. Needs to become more mentally tough.
Brown has potential. I think he will improve game over game. Isiah is our best receiver. Its not even close. Hopefully hes healthy. Runs good routes, is big, fast catches well.
I like Gil. Give me more of him. Maybe they start to work Dan into the mix. He certainly looks the part.
We have talent and i believe the kids will step up. If not we will either lose games and lose our starting QB.

 

[Trueblue25]

I like that analysis. I don’t understand how a kid has a weakness, like route running, and doesn’t get coached, or work on privately, extensively. We know he can catch and jump, so why not focus 1000% on Route running techniques. Do some kids just not get it, or is it harder to learn than it seems?

The difference between a decent college player and a draft prospect is the time put in outside of practice. If Damien has trouble with catching and route running, he has to work on that outside of practice hours. He may be doing that already, I don’t know.

I can tell you Oronde and Garrett spent a lot of extra time together the past 2 years getting on the same page, forming a relationship and putting in thousands of extra reps.

 

[PhatOrange]

Charting the incompletes.

Ball on WR

1st possession - Jones gets the ball dislodged from behind on a curl inside the hashes.
Possession ended in a punt
2nd possession - Hatcher, blanketed catchable ball broken up
Hatcher - gets behind the defense on a go down the right sideline, only uncontested drop of the game.
Possession ended in a TD
3rd possession- Allen broken up on a swing pass, didn’t secure ball
Possession ended in punt
4th - Brown gets turned around on a deep out, can’t really see if it was catchable. play negated by roughing
Jones - Very, very difficult attempt, would have been a high end catch.
Possession ended in a TD
5th - Alford - uncatchable miss in the endzone, should have been PI.
Brown - 7yd curl, broken up with hit from behind, negated by PI
Possession ended in missed FG
6th Hatcher - ball dislodged in blanked coverage.
Possession ended in a TD
8th - Brown, Int, ball was inside and the db had position
9th - Alford - Got behind Db on go route, held which resulted in PI, couldn’t get to the ball
Brown - High pass, resulted in PI
Possession ended in a TD
10th Alford - uncatchable high, resulted in PI
Possession ended in punt

Misses on Shrader
4th intended for Alford, not close
7th intended for Alford , batted down before it got to him
7th intended for Adams, missed long
9th intended for Allen, thrown in ground intentionally
10th intended for Allen, throwaway out of bounds
10th intended for Brown , batted down before it got to him

Bottomline, Hatcher is the only guy that had a bad game.

Jones gets an incomplete. The play he got hurt on would have been a circus catch.

Allen had one strip, he caught everything else that was on him.

Brown had more good than bad. The Int was more on where the throw was. He is going to struggle if it’s physical at the point of the catch.

Alford had a really good game.

Were they perfect, far from it, but they weren’t dropping wide open catches all over the field either.

Thanks for this analysis. I didn’t recall when watching the game that there drops all over the place. I only remembered Hatcher being the most egregious. The others were meh.

 

[IthacaBarrel]

Thanks for this analysis. I didn’t recall when watching the game that there drops all over the place. I only remembered Hatcher being the most egregious. The others were meh.

I didn't either. a few that could have gone either way but I think people underestimate contested catches and consider them far to easy to actually come down with.

 

[wfschrec]

The epitome of the WR core can be shown simply by watching Alford … solid blocker, makes a great catch on that out on the first drive (DB actually tipped the ball and Alford still snagged it to the surprise of many) and will have an occasional drop. The amazing thing about Alford seems to be that he makes the catch when in all likelihood he shouldn’t even have a shot. How many times has he high pointed a ball and snatched it only to be out of bounds because the throw was just a bit too wide. He has made some spectacular catches, had mind numbing drops, does some of the other necessary things like blocking well but just can’t quite get over the consistency hump. Amazing potential but the execution just isn’t quite there yet. These things get remedied and with their size that core could be lethal.

 

[cusefan88]

I actually think Shrader should have had three touchdown passes. The Hatcher drop, Brown got held big-time after washing his defender on a slant, and maybe Alford on the PI in the end zone.

 

[orangepassion]

What I think some here don't realize is that WR's everywhere occasionally drop passes, even from top teams. We've had a couple of bad drops, but our receivers have shown a lot more good than bad this year, including much improved blocking

 

[bigmike]

Then why couldn’t that Clemson receiver drop that sideline pass when they beat us a couple of years back? Arghhh!

 

[Crusty]

I don't know about that, going to push back here -- we beat the press coverage all game long.

That wasn't the issue.

There's a reason Pur-don't spent the entire second half committing PI 15 yard penalties. And it sure wasn't because they were effectively jamming our receivers at the line of scrimmage.

My view is that Shrader ran effectively because Purdue had good man coverage and guys were not open.
Purdue had an interception and several breakups when Garrett tried to force it in. They had 3 PIs in the second half, none if which would have been called if they had their heads turned towards the ball. Our receivers just didn't get very open at all.

The Defense won that game by creating turnovers. Otherwise, Purdue would have won. Not much question.

Clemson, VPI and Pitt will cover us like a blanket not so much anybody else.

We're simply not the same offense without OG. Defensive Coordinators have picked up an extra man not having to double OG.

Purdue underestimated GS and whomever was spying him wasn't up to the task. That's all on tape now and ACC coaches will do a better job.

To not be concerned doesn’t seem to be wise to me.

As I have said before, OG was worth 1-3 games. I feel that even more after our first real test.

Hopefiily, Trebor will be back soon and that will help. Also, guys will get better as the season progresses and they get used to the increased attention.
I will hope to be pleasantly surprised.

 

[RF2044]

My view is that Shrader ran effectively because Purdue had good man coverage and guys were not open.
Purdue had an interception and several breakups when Garrett tried to force it in. They had 3 PIs in the second half, none if which would have been called if they had their heads turned towards the ball. Our receivers just didn't get very open at all.

The Defense won that game by creating turnovers. Otherwise, Purdue would have won. Not much question.

Clemson, VPI and Pitt will cover us like a blanket not so much anybody else.

We're simply not the same offense without OG. Defensive Coordinators have picked up an extra man not having to double OG.

Purdue underestimated GS and whomever was spying him wasn't up to the task. That's all on tape now and ACC coaches will do a better job.

To not be concerned doesn’t seem to be wise to me.

As I have said before, OG was worth 1-3 games. I feel that even more after our first real test.

Hopefiily, Trebor will be back soon and that will help. Also, guys will get better as the season progresses and they get used to the increased attention.
I will hope to be pleasantly surprised.

Good analysis / summary, but unduly pessimistic in my opinion.

Your take is that Purdue would have won, but we got lucky because out defense created turnovers -- apologies, but that is bunk. Purdue's defense didn't come close to slowing us down the entire game. Only penalties and drops slowed us down.

They are lucky we didn't post 55 or more on them.

Teams can attempt to spy on Shrader, but that opens other things up. Every game is different, and a chess match to a degree.

 

[Chip]

My view is that Shrader ran effectively because Purdue had good man coverage and guys were not open.
Purdue had an interception and several breakups when Garrett tried to force it in. They had 3 PIs in the second half, none if which would have been called if they had their heads turned towards the ball. Our receivers just didn't get very open at all.

The Defense won that game by creating turnovers. Otherwise, Purdue would have won. Not much question.

Clemson, VPI and Pitt will cover us like a blanket not so much anybody else.

We're simply not the same offense without OG. Defensive Coordinators have picked up an extra man not having to double OG.

Purdue underestimated GS and whomever was spying him wasn't up to the task. That's all on tape now and ACC coaches will do a better job.

To not be concerned doesn’t seem to be wise to me.

As I have said before, OG was worth 1-3 games. I feel that even more after our first real test.

Hopefiily, Trebor will be back soon and that will help. Also, guys will get better as the season progresses and they get used to the increased attention.
I will hope to be pleasantly surprised.

Were you at the game?

 

[GoSU96]

My view is that Shrader ran effectively because Purdue had good man coverage and guys were not open.
Purdue had an interception and several breakups when Garrett tried to force it in. They had 3 PIs in the second half, none if which would have been called if they had their heads turned towards the ball. Our receivers just didn't get very open at all.

The Defense won that game by creating turnovers. Otherwise, Purdue would have won. Not much question.

Clemson, VPI and Pitt will cover us like a blanket not so much anybody else.

We're simply not the same offense without OG. Defensive Coordinators have picked up an extra man not having to double OG.

Purdue underestimated GS and whomever was spying him wasn't up to the task. That's all on tape now and ACC coaches will do a better job.

To not be concerned doesn’t seem to be wise to me.

As I have said before, OG was worth 1-3 games. I feel that even more after our first real test.

Hopefiily, Trebor will be back soon and that will help. Also, guys will get better as the season progresses and they get used to the increased attention.
I will hope to be pleasantly surprised.

Big exaggeration that guys weren’t getting open.

On deep balls Hatcher dropped a td he had gotten behind the defense. Alford’s first PI he had his guy beat and the defender grabbed his left arm to restrain him from getting to the spot. Had nothing to do with getting his head around. Same with the one on Browm, defender grabbed his Jersey.

Adams beat his guy, the ball was just a little to far in front, or that has a chance for a TD.

Alford was wide open on two medium passes that he got another 15 - 20 yds after the catch.



Brown had an incomplete deep out where he was wide open.

On the plays where the balls were dislodged guys had position but didn’t hold on through contact. That’s an issue, but they aren’t AJ Brown, Brown, Hatcher, and Jones are all long and lean and that is probably something that is really practiced much, if at all, these days. Brown did do a good job of securing a couple of those. He did the best job by far inside.

Allen was wide open on a couple of his receptions.

Fact is if Hatcher catches his and Adams and Shrader connect it’s 42 vs 35 (they scored on the possession that Hatcher had his drop) with another 80 yds passing and 40 less rushing. In addition if they hold onto three of the 6 that got broken up on the catch instead of 14 of 28 for 190 it’s 19 of 28 for 290 and two td’s.

 

[PhatOrange]

Aren’t those DBs who are not looking back beat?

They had 3 PIs in the second half, none if which would have been called if they had their heads turned towards the ball.