WWE Thread

[Alsacs]

Is the Flair thing true? The story Meltzer has always told is that Flair had a handshake deal with Vince that if he was ever moved down the cards, then Vince would let him go back to WCW. So I believe him dropping the title to Bret and being moved off the main event precipitated him leaving, as opposed to the other way around.

Bret has a really high opinion of himself; I somewhat doubt he single handedly was able to get Vince to change the location of the second biggest PPV of the year and move it to another continent. I think the company had to decide on DC vs London, and either way Bret was dropping the belt. And I don't doubt he was pushing London.

Bret didn’t get the location moved.
He said as you did that the 2 locations discussed were DC and London and once London was chosen he talked Vince into letting Davey win it off him in the main event with Shawn beating Davey a month later.

On Flair he gave his 90 day notice when the company was on a European tour and Flair left in WCW in 1991 because Jim Herd wanted Flair to take a massive payout and do a stupid gladiator gimmick over his nature boy persona.
So Flair left for WWF.
When Hurd left in 1992 Flair wanted to go back and he hated how Savage-Flair wasn’t the last match at WM8 for Hogan-Justice.
Flair gave his 90 day notice late September 1992 and Vince had Flair lose the belt on a non televised show in Canada to Bret Hart.

 

[Alsacs]

A funny story about Summerslam 92 was that Bret worked the main event and only made 250k while Undertaker had run in with Papa Shango and Flair and made 1.1 million.
He talked about in his book how he bought Bret drinks at the bar after the match because he felt so bad and was impressed with Bret’s main event match.

 

[Knicks411]

Bret didn’t get the location moved.
He said as you did that the 2 locations discussed were DC and London and once London was chosen he talked Vince into letting Davey win it off him in the main event with Shawn beating Davey a month later.

On Flair he gave his 90 day notice when the company was on a European tour and Flair left in WCW in 1991 because Jim Herd wanted Flair to take a massive payout and do a stupid gladiator gimmick over his nature boy persona.
So Flair left for WWF.
When Hurd left in 1992 Flair wanted to go back and he hated how Savage-Flair wasn’t the last match at WM8 for Hogan-Justice.
Flair gave his 90 day notice late September 1992 and Vince had Flair lose the belt on a non televised show in Canada to Bret Hart.

Where have you seen the Flair thing? Like I said, everything I've read has been Vince moving Flair down the cards and Ric leaving because of that. Not Ric dropping the title because he asked to leave

 

[Alsacs]

Where have you seen the Flair thing? Like I said, everything I've read has been Vince moving Flair down the cards and Ric leaving because of that. Not Ric dropping the title because he asked to leave

Flairs book.
Flair wasn’t moving down the card. He was champion from July 1992 to September 1992.
He wanted to go back to WCW because those were his towns and Hurd was put out of power.
Flair after he announced he was leaving agreed with Vince to put over Hart and give him the belt.
After losing the belt to Hart then Flair started working a program with Curt Henning that ended after the 1993 Royal Rumble on the first Monday Raw after the two had a Loser Leaves town match that Perfect won and Flair left for good.

 

[Knicks411]

Flairs book.
Flair wasn’t moving down the card. He was champion from July 1992 to September 1992.
He wanted to go back to WCW because those were his towns and Hurd was put out of power.
Flair after he announced he was leaving agreed with Vince to put over Hart and give him the belt.
After losing the belt to Hart then Flair started working a program with Curt Henning that ended after the 1993 Royal Rumble on the first Monday Raw after the two had a Loser Leaves town match that Perfect won and Flair left for good.

Ok i Need to see if I have Flair's book lying around. Don't remember it exactly like that.

I did some googling, this is what he said

Apparently, during Flair's initial stint with WWE, he had an arrangement with Vince McMahon that McMahon would give Flair a heads up and an opportunity to leave the company if McMahon ever decided to stop using Flair as a main event star. Flair indicated that McMahon gave him the opportunity to return to WCW in late 1992 or early 1993.

"[McMahon] just told me that he was going to go with the young guys and he gave me an opportunity to go to Watts, who had been calling me every day. And he said, 'if you want to go, I need you to do a favor for me,' which I did, and I was gone. I had so much fun being there, but I didn't want to be in a reduced role."



Which is basically the story I remember reading. Haven't read Flair's book in a while

 

[Alsacs]

Ok i Need to see if I have Flair's book lying around. Don't remember it exactly like that.

I did some googling, this is what he said

Apparently, during Flair's initial stint with WWE, he had an arrangement with Vince McMahon that McMahon would give Flair a heads up and an opportunity to leave the company if McMahon ever decided to stop using Flair as a main event star. Flair indicated that McMahon gave him the opportunity to return to WCW in late 1992 or early 1993.

"[McMahon] just told me that he was going to go with the young guys and he gave me an opportunity to go to Watts, who had been calling me every day. And he said, 'if you want to go, I need you to do a favor for me,' which I did, and I was gone. I had so much fun being there, but I didn't want to be in a reduced role."



Which is basically the story I remember reading. Haven't read Flair's book in a while

Good stuff I guess it makes sense as well Savage was put out to pasture once Flair left as well.

 

[Knicks411]

Good stuff I guess it makes sense as well Savage was put out to pasture once Flair left as well.

Yeah it's weird to think now, considering some of the guys pushed, but Vince often has this thing about age, where he doesn't want to push guys once they reach a certain level. So many guys from that period basiclaly left WWF (Hogan, Piper, Savage, Flair) and were still serious players in WCW a few years later. I think Cena fits a little into this now, they seem to be making him less of a big deal when he still could probably be a top guy (when around).

Then again, they do stuff like run a main event with DX vs Kane/Taker. So.

 

[OrangeDW]

So Virgil just said “Nailz, I’m definitely mad as...(and then breathed as if he wanted to say the word)” and said “I want to say the word”. Aww man, I didn’t catch any of this stuff as a kid. Then he claimed that he and the Big Boss Man are both “too legit to quit”. I’m dying.

 

[OrangeDW]

Flairs book.
Flair wasn’t moving down the card. He was champion from July 1992 to September 1992.
He wanted to go back to WCW because those were his towns and Hurd was put out of power.
Flair after he announced he was leaving agreed with Vince to put over Hart and give him the belt.
After losing the belt to Hart then Flair started working a program with Curt Henning that ended after the 1993 Royal Rumble on the first Monday Raw after the two had a Loser Leaves town match that Perfect won and Flair left for good.

Flair wasn’t champion in July. Savage had the belt. He was champ when he wrestled Warrior at Summerslam in ‘92.

Flair won it in late August or early September. I was watching then and was in disbelief when my friend told me that Flair was a new champ, because I didn’t think they’d have a title change that wasn’t on PPV.

Then Bret won it not too long after.

 

[OrangeDW]

Yeah it's weird to think now, considering some of the guys pushed, but Vince often has this thing about age, where he doesn't want to push guys once they reach a certain level. So many guys from that period basiclaly left WWF (Hogan, Piper, Savage, Flair) and were still serious players in WCW a few years later. I think Cena fits a little into this now, they seem to be making him less of a big deal when he still could probably be a top guy (when around).

Then again, they do stuff like run a main event with DX vs Kane/Taker. So.

Remember WWF running those “Nacho Man vs. the Huckster” things, presenting them as geriatric jokes in the mid 90s. Hilarious considering the direction Vince has gone the last 15 years.

Also, I remember in Bret’s book he said how his matches with Flair in that fall ‘92 era were kinda lackluster and how Flair was always making it seem like it was Bret’s fault backstage like “ah, you know, the kid made some mistakes”. LOL. I gotta get Flairs book. Bret’s was phenomenal, at least through his WWF run. Got really depressing around the time Owen died and he got his concussion and eventual stroke though.

 

[OrangeDW]

Vince McMahon to Mr. Perfect about Jim Duggan, “he had one eye on you and one eye on the Repo Man.”

Mr. Perfect : “He can do that with those eyes.”

LOL!!!!!

Mr. Perfect was really good on commentary. And I’m actually now on episodes that I remember watching as a kid. This is awesome.

 

[NineOneSeven]

Vince McMahon to Mr. Perfect about Jim Duggan, “he had one eye on you and one eye on the Repo Man.”

Mr. Perfect : “He can do that with those eyes.”

LOL!!!!!

Mr. Perfect was really good on commentary. And I’m actually now on episodes that I remember watching as a kid. This is awesome.

My childhood was attitude era. Watched a bunch of king of the rings and survivor series this weekend from 98-02. Vince Was actually unbelievably gifted at promos and even ring psychology as a heel. Amazing.

 

[OrangeDW]

My childhood was attitude era. Watched a bunch of king of the rings and survivor series this weekend from 98-02. Vince Was actually unbelievably gifted at promos and even ring psychology as a heel. Amazing.

As a kid I was a 92-94 hardcore WWF guy that sometimes watched WCW as a clear number 2 option...then went about 75/25% WCW/WWF in 96-97. 1995 was kind of an L for both where I watched both enough to kinda know what was going on but was almost embarrassed to still watch and nearly quit type kid.

I had a last gasp in ‘98 as a mostly WCW guy whose friends were all about WWF, so I knew what was happening there.

Wrestling was HUGE in ‘99-‘00 while I was in high school, though I didn’t care much and only caught Raw sometimes because most of my friends watched and I was at their house half paying attention(I thought Rock and Jericho were funny, but otherwise didn’t care).

 

[kirbivore]

I wasn't a superfan but I would occasionally watch the Saturday morning shows and most of the Saturday night main events from about age 8-14 (85-91). Didn't care in HS. Frosh year of college a buddy on my floor got me into ECW. Was exclusive ECW 95-98. Included WWF 98-04. Once Rock and Austin were gone so was I.

 

[Symphony Steve]

Looks like Dave Bautista is negotiating w/both WWE and AEW, per the Wrestling Observer. I think he makes more sense for WWE, as their stable of nostalgia acts has dwindled recently. In fact, if he signs, they'll probably find a spot for him at Wrestlemania.

 

[Alsacs]

I just read the Raw report since I wasn’t investing the time to watch that crap.
What the heck is the point of the winning the Rumble anymore. We all know they are going to force this into a triple threat now nobody wants.
The Royal Rumble is less useful than the BIg Show's father dead storyline.

Such bad writing. They killed the momentum they had in their top stat.

 

[ScrabbCuse]

I just read the Raw report since I wasn’t investing the time to watch that crap.
What the heck is the point of the winning the Rumble anymore. We all know they are going to force this into a triple threat now nobody wants.
The Royal Rumble is less useful than the BIg Show's father dead storyline.

Such bad writing. They killed the momentum they had in their top stat.

Wasn’t it Vince himself who said they were going to listen to what the fans want from now on? Glad that lasted all of a month or so.

Other than Vince being out of touch with reality, the only thing I can think of is either he promised Charlotte the main event spot at WrestleMania last year and can’t renege on that promise or he doesn’t fully trust Ronda Rousey to not get flustered and he wants someone who he knows can control the flow of the match.

Either way, we are getting deprived of the one on one match we want to see which is unfortunate.

 

[jncuse]

My prime time for wrestling was from 1987-1990. (Between WrestleMania 3 and 6)

I still remember the live events I went to during that time at the old Montreal Forum with my dad and my cousin.

In August 1987, the main event was the Rougeau Brothers beat the Hart Foundation for the Tag Team Title, a title change the WWE has never acknowledged. I don't remember much of the undercard. Pat Patterson wrestled and the hometown crowd loved him, and I remember thinking who is this guy.

In late 1987, I went to watch Hulk Hogan defend the WWF title against the One Man Gang. Neither me or my dad were huge Hulk fans, but it was impossible not to get caught up with the crowd. The Montreal crowd went nuts for Hogan, and they were a raucous crowd as they are known to be. Hogan won his traditional match... don't remember much else on the card. Strike Force (who had just won the WWF Tag Titles) beat the Islanders.

 

[jncuse]

Continued from above.

In May 1988, after WrestleMania 4, I went to a NIght of Champions Card at the Forum. Randy Savage defended his title against Ted Dibiase, Honky Tonk Man defended his title against Brutus Beefcake, and I forget who Demolition wrestled (perhaps it was Strike Force who they had just beat at WrestleMania 4)

I think that was the last time I went to Montreal (about 90 minute drive) to go watch it.

Wrestling shows started to happen in Cornwall, a city of 50,000, and close to hometown and of course they were of lesser quality, I went to 3 or 4 of those as well.

The first one was a garbage card, where the main event was either Don Muraco vs Bob Orton or Hillbilly Jim vs Killer Khan. How I still remember those matches I don't know -- I suspect its because I would brag to my friends that I would see much better matches in Montreal and would use these as a matter of comparison.

The next time they came they had much better matches but they were always notorious for no shows. I remember seeing the Ultimate Warrior vs Frenchy Martin (when Dino Bravo no showed)... or how Richard Chartrand (some Canadian jobber) who filled in for Bam Bam Bigelow against the One Man Gang. Jake Roberts wrestled Rick Rude when their feud was hot, and Rick Rude said "Hit the Music", and the music would not start and you could see guys running around the ring trying to figure it out. After a few minutes Jake saved the moment, by attacking Rude from behind.

And perhaps my favourite moment at that first event, was seeing an adult (from my very small hometown) going up to ringside and yapping at the heel. (I forget who the heel was ... I think it was Orton). The heel just called him out, and in two seconds the fan jumped the barricade and was ready to get into the ring before the security pulled him away. Perhaps it was Haku. If it had been Haku, that guy would have been killed -- I heard Haku is the legit toughest guy in the biz.

 

[jncuse]

http://www.thehistoryofwwe.com/87.htm
I was able to find some the cards I went to using the above site.

No wonder I didn't remember much else from this show in August 1987. (it was littered with notorious jobbers -- Scott Casey, Outback Jack, Mike Sharpe, SD Jones)

WWF @ Montreal, Quebec - Forum - August 10, 1987 (11,811)
Dino Bravo pinned the Junkyard Dog
Tito Santana defeated Steve Strong (sub. for Butch Reed) via count-out
Pat Patterson pinned Brutus Beefcake after hitting him with a foreign object
Rick Rude pinned Scott Casey
Steve Strong (sub. for Killer Khan) defeated Outback Jack
Superstar Billy Graham defeated Iron Mike Sharpe via submission with the bearhug
SD Jones pinned the Red Demon
Jacques & Raymond Rougeau defeated WWF Tag Team Champions Bret Hart & Jim Neidhart to win the titles when Jacques pinned Hart after hitting him with Jimmy Hart's megaphone behind the referee's back; the title change was never mentioned on WWF TV and the belts were later returned to the champions due to the use of the megaphone; footage of the title change was shown on Montreal TV news stations


WWF @ Montreal, Quebec - Forum - November 28, 1987
Lanny Poffo defeated Steve Lombardi
Greg Valentine defeated Outback Jack
Danny Spivey defeated Jerry Allen
Don Muraco defeated Butch Reed
Bam Bam Bigelow defeated King Kong Bundy (sub. for Killer Khan)
Jacques & Raymond Rougeau defeated Nikolai Volkoff & Boris Zhukov
WWF Tag Team Champion Tito Santana defeated Tama
Dino Bravo defeated Brutus Beefcake

WWF @ Montreal, Quebec - Forum - May 29, 1988
Jerry Allen defeated Iron Mike Sharpe
Jacques & Raymond Rougeau defeated B. Brian Blair & Jim Brunzell
WWF IC Champion the Honkytonk Man defeated Brutus Beefcake
Bret Hart fought Bad News Brown to a time-limit draw
WWF Tag Team Champions Demolition defeated Davey Boy Smith & the Dynamite Kid
Ken Patera fought Dino Bravo to a no contest
Koko B. Ware defeated Bobby Heenan
WWF World Champion Randy Savage defeated Ted Dibiase via disqualification

 

[Knicks411]

Love the old stories from people going to shows.

WWE/Vince love Charlotte. This whole thing is so dumb. They have a match people want to see and they won't deliver it. That's like, the opposite of the whole idea

 

[jncuse]

Apparently they could not get the results to this one. This was the card that half the wrestlers did not show up for. DIno Bravo, Bam Bam Bigelow, and Demolition is what I remember not showing up.

WWF @ Cornwall, Ontario - Civic Complex - February 18, 1989
Paul Roma pinned Conquistador #1
Shawn Michaels & Marty Jannetty defeated Arn Anderson & Tully Blanchard via disqualification
Koko B. Ware pinned Nikolai Volkoff
The Blue Blazer pinned Danny Davis
King Haku pinned Jim Powers
Greg Valentine pinned Jim Neidhart with a roll up
Andre the Giant pinned Jake Roberts


I think the only other time I went to a live event was in Toronto when I was around 25 (around 2000). The attitude era, my only memory was my friend getting in an argument with a 7 year old a few rows below as to whether the Rock or Bob Holly was better. Of course it was Hardcore Bob Holly who was roided to the max at this point.

 

[Alsacs]

Love the old stories from people going to shows.

WWE/Vince love Charlotte. This whole thing is so dumb. They have a match people want to see and they won't deliver it. That's like, the opposite of the whole idea

They put all their eggs into one star and don’t care if that star gets push back.
I actually thought before his Leukemia diagnosis that X-Pac Heat should have been renamed Roman heat.
However with his diagnosis the guy will rightfully never get a boo again.

Charlotte seems to be the female Reigns and the creative’s insistence on using the authority just doesn’t make sense. Stephaine is a good heel but she is so oversatured and people can’t stand she never gets taken down like Vince did over and over.

The creative is ruining an organic push by Lynch it seems to just protect Ronda Rousey from getting booed and having to eat a pin.
Rousey IMO hasn’t been worthy the investment as she is awful on the mic and she hasn’t beaten everyone on the roster so early none of her matches matter as she is going to win.

 

[Knicks411]

They put all their eggs into one star and don’t care if that star gets push back.
I actually thought before his Leukemia diagnosis that X-Pac Heat should have been renamed Roman heat.
However with his diagnosis the guy will rightfully never get a boo again.

Charlotte seems to be the female Reigns and the creative’s insistence on using the authority just doesn’t make sense. Stephaine is a good heel but she is so oversatured and people can’t stand she never gets taken down like Vince did over and over.

The creative is ruining an organic push by Lynch it seems to just protect Ronda Rousey from getting booed and having to eat a pin.
Rousey IMO hasn’t been worthy the investment as she is awful on the mic and she hasn’t beaten everyone on the roster so early none of her matches matter as she is going to win.

I think she was the key reason Fox paid so much in tv rights fees, so on that account, she's been well worth it.

Her promos though. Yeah

 

[Symphony Steve]

For once, WWE has it right...although there's still plenty of time for them to screw it up. Becky is still booked to win at WM. Charlotte is now the super heel in the eyes of the fans. I think, though don't know, that Becky will pin Charlotte at WM, and will then do a one-on-one against Ronda at the next major event, which would then be the blow-off before Ronda goes off to raise her family. The pop for Becky winning at WM will be one of the biggest in WWE history. That's the plan. The more people hate Charlotte, the bigger the pop. Simple, basic, and effective booking.