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Knicks411

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The best “total package” guys in that they were great wrestlers, great talkers, were incredibly over, and were equally great heels or faces...

I think Jericho and Savage top the list. No flaws with either, IMO.

I’d put Eddie Guerrero up there too.

Then you get into guys where you can nitpick something...
Benoit(not a great talker)
Flair(not a great face)
Michaels(honestly think he was terrible on the mic for like 90% of his career)
Hart(pedestrian on the mic for most of his face years - got really good in ‘97)
Angle(not a great face for the most part)
Mr. Perfect - not a great face, never got to shine as a main eventer
Austin - not a great worker anymore due to injury once everything else came into play - same schtick always, no real nuance(not that he needed it as over as he was)

Austin is one i would fight; he was def a brawler after the 97 injury, but by like 2000/01 he was having awesome regular matches, not just purely brawls. and i mean, he's Steve Austin
I think Rock probably deserves to be in the convo, maybe never a super super worker, but really good. And the other stuff was just unbelievable.
 

OrangeDW

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Austin is one i would fight; he was def a brawler after the 97 injury, but by like 2000/01 he was having awesome regular matches, not just purely brawls. and i mean, he's Steve Austin
I think Rock probably deserves to be in the convo, maybe never a super super worker, but really good. And the other stuff was just unbelievable.
Yeah, fair enough on Austin matches in 2000-01.

But I do think his heel run didn’t really work and by that point he was locked into being a face and doing his routine. Maybe not his fault though, because he was just so big that the fans would reject anything else.

Rock, I guess.

I don’t know if I fully articulated what I was going for...those guys are two of the greatest of all time and in that conversation The Rock’s insanely great mic work more than makes up for his “pretty good” ring work.

I was going for a slightly different conversation focusing solely on the “total package” aspect of it where I think Jericho and Savage were the best in that regard.
 

NineOneSeven

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There's stuff I pick up viewing all this again many years later. I always knew they missed the boat of pulling the trigger on guys like Benoit/Jericho up the card, but man, they really did. Jericho came in 99, was pretty hot, but they basically debuted him in that promo against Rock and then moved him right down the card. He worked his way up, and was super hot by April of 2000 and the crowd totally would've supported him as champ. But, like I said, you know. So he gets put into a feud with Benoit; tough to hate, super great matches laand all that. But then you get back to December/January of 2000/2001, and...they're feuding with each other again. They did have a great ladder match at the rumble (which legit may have contributed like 10-15% to any brain damage Benoit had) but it was like they were treading water
His debut on raw was one of the best
 

NineOneSeven

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The best “total package” guys in that they were great wrestlers, great talkers, were incredibly over, and were equally great heels or faces...

I think Jericho and Savage top the list. No flaws with either, IMO.

I’d put Eddie Guerrero up there too.

Then you get into guys where you can nitpick something...
Benoit(not a great talker)
Flair(not a great face)
Michaels(honestly think he was terrible on the mic for like 90% of his career)
Hart(pedestrian on the mic for most of his face years - got really good in ‘97)
Angle(not a great face for the most part)
Mr. Perfect - not a great face, never got to shine as a main eventer
Austin - not a great worker anymore due to injury once everything else came into play - same schtick always, no real nuance(not that he needed it as over as he was)
Angle in his prime was one of the best talkers ever. By far. His goofiness was unmatched but it wasn’t cheesy. Same with Christian. Both all timers.

And agree about Eddie. He wasn’t great at both. Nobody, exception of maybe flair, was better at those cheating victories.
 

OrangeDW

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Angle in his prime was one of the best talkers ever. By far. His goofiness was unmatched but it wasn’t cheesy. Same with Christian. Both all timers.

And agree about Eddie. He wasn’t great at both. Nobody, exception of maybe flair, was better at those cheating victories.
Agreed. I’m trying to think of a great Angle face run though. When I think of him, I think heel. He was over as a face at the end of his original WWE run, I guess. But that didn’t seem to last real long. I can’t really think of anything else though I could be missing something from when I wasn’t watching much?
 

NineOneSeven

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Agreed. I’m trying to think of a great Angle face run though. When I think of him, I think heel. He was over as a face at the end of his original WWE run, I guess. But that didn’t seem to last real long. I can’t really think of anything else though I could be missing something from when I wasn’t watching much?
It was so much easier to keep him heel once word got out you could chant you suck to his music

Can’t really recover once that is out, and I loved it for the record
 

OrangeDW

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It was so much easier to keep him heel once word got out you could chant you suck to his music

Can’t really recover once that is out, and I loved it for the record
Haha, true. Though it eventually, around 06, became that he was so great that they would cheer him anyway and STILL do the “you suck” chant.

Angle’s early years in TNA were pretty great too. The first feud with Samoa Joe got a lot of hype and delivered IMO.
 

Knicks411

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Agreed. I’m trying to think of a great Angle face run though. When I think of him, I think heel. He was over as a face at the end of his original WWE run, I guess. But that didn’t seem to last real long. I can’t really think of anything else though I could be missing something from when I wasn’t watching much?
Best face run probably in late 01 after 9/11?

Haha, true. Though it eventually, around 06, became that he was so great that they would cheer him anyway and STILL do the “you suck” chant.

Angle’s early years in TNA were pretty great too. The first feud with Samoa Joe got a lot of hype and delivered IMO.
His first match with Joe in TNA I think was the only TNA ppv I ever bought
 

OrangeDW

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Best face run probably in late 01 after 9/11?



His first match with Joe in TNA I think was the only TNA ppv I ever bought
Thanks. That’s the kind of stuff I may have missed because I wasn’t really watching until the last couple years of his run. And while I’ve gone back and watched quite a bit, there are probably periods of a few months here and there that have slipped through the cracks for me.
 

NineOneSeven

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Watching No Mercy 2002, one of best matches I’ve ever seen between angle/Benoit and edge/Mysterio.

Unbelievable match! Highly recommend people watch it. 4 magicians in the ring.
 

Knicks411

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Watching No Mercy 2002, one of best matches I’ve ever seen between angle/Benoit and edge/Mysterio.

Unbelievable match! Highly recommend people watch it. 4 magicians in the ring.

This match is so so so good
 

NineOneSeven

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This match is so so so good
Have never seen it. The hot tags, the reversals, near falls. And zero obvious botches which is crazy bc they were legit throwing Rey at each other for moves!!
 

NineOneSeven

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Elimination Chamber Tonight. Currently the chamber match for women tag team champs
 

Knicks411

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Super awkward with Graves calling the match with Carmella in it
 

moqui

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Most underrated wrestler of all time.

.
of all time who knows
of my time, it's brian pillman. he had the total package and was about to set the entire wrestling world on fire when he wrecked his car , destroyed his ankle, and began the descent to his way-too-early death.
 

Symphony Steve

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Surest way to get a belt and/or get a push in WWE? Make noises like you want to leave. The Usos, whose contracts are coming due, get the belts back despite the police incident last week. The Revival complain and then get the belts. Dean Ambrose gets pushed after announcing he's leaving.

Coincidence? I think not.
 

Symphony Steve

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That was one weird Raw last night. Apparently reacting to the slumping ratings, Vince called up Ricochet, Tomasso Ciampa, Johnny Gargano, and Aleister Black from NXT. The crowd, which might as well have been given free tranquilizers for all the noise they didn't make, responded as one might expect from a crowd that had never seen any of the new stars before. That was perhaps the deadest Raw crowd I've ever heard.

Ricochet showed off his high-flying skills, but gave a horrible promo following a good promo by Finn Balor. The contrast was palpable. BTW, you can do all the high flying maneuvers you want, but w/o a story and/or character, you'll just have a high-spot guy. He's great, but they need to build him up as a personality and give him a good storyline.

Ciampa and Gargano are among the best wrestlers in the company but, as anyone who watches NXT knows, they've been feuding with each other, a classic feud, I might add, but here they are teasing none of that tension. They beat the Revival clean, so they're likely building to a feud, which would be much more intriguing with the added tension of the blood feud between Ciampa and Gargano.

The Lacey Evans 'Lady In Red' tease was just strange. Word is that they want to give her a big push.

Look, I understand their need to develop new stars. But throwing the very best that NXT has to offer on the show w/o context does nobody any favors. I don't see ratings success from this show, to put it mildly.
 

Alsacs

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That was one weird Raw last night. Apparently reacting to the slumping ratings, Vince called up Ricochet, Tomasso Ciampa, Johnny Gargano, and Aleister Black from NXT. The crowd, which might as well have been given free tranquilizers for all the noise they didn't make, responded as one might expect from a crowd that had never seen any of the new stars before. That was perhaps the deadest Raw crowd I've ever heard.

Ricochet showed off his high-flying skills, but gave a horrible promo following a good promo by Finn Balor. The contrast was palpable. BTW, you can do all the high flying maneuvers you want, but w/o a story and/or character, you'll just have a high-spot guy. He's great, but they need to build him up as a personality and give him a good storyline.

Ciampa and Gargano are among the best wrestlers in the company but, as anyone who watches NXT knows, they've been feuding with each other, a classic feud, I might add, but here they are teasing none of that tension. They beat the Revival clean, so they're likely building to a feud, which would be much more intriguing with the added tension of the blood feud between Ciampa and Gargano.

The Lacey Evans 'Lady In Red' tease was just strange. Word is that they want to give her a big push.

Look, I understand their need to develop new stars. But throwing the very best that NXT has to offer on the show w/o context does nobody any favors. I don't see ratings success from this show, to put it mildly.
Raw and Smackdown are watered down and written for audiences between 6-12.
It’s a children’s show now or Vince is trying to burn the shows down for the insurance money because the product is suppose to be trying now and they are mailing in WM season shows.
I don’t even DVR the show anymore it’s just read it in 5 minutes and thank goodness because the shows just suck.
 

KaiserUEO

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Raw and Smackdown are watered down and written for audiences between 6-12.
It’s a children’s show now or Vince is trying to burn the shows down for the insurance money because the product is suppose to be trying now and they are mailing in WM season shows.
I don’t even DVR the show anymore it’s just read it in 5 minutes and thank goodness because the shows just suck.
It’s always awkward to see new talent.

But yes, my 7 year old is in to Raw and liked seeing the NXT guys on his video game make it to Raw, before he went to bed...will see the rest this afternoon before Smackdown.
 

NineOneSeven

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That was one weird Raw last night. Apparently reacting to the slumping ratings, Vince called up Ricochet, Tomasso Ciampa, Johnny Gargano, and Aleister Black from NXT. The crowd, which might as well have been given free tranquilizers for all the noise they didn't make, responded as one might expect from a crowd that had never seen any of the new stars before. That was perhaps the deadest Raw crowd I've ever heard.

Ricochet showed off his high-flying skills, but gave a horrible promo following a good promo by Finn Balor. The contrast was palpable. BTW, you can do all the high flying maneuvers you want, but w/o a story and/or character, you'll just have a high-spot guy. He's great, but they need to build him up as a personality and give him a good storyline.

Ciampa and Gargano are among the best wrestlers in the company but, as anyone who watches NXT knows, they've been feuding with each other, a classic feud, I might add, but here they are teasing none of that tension. They beat the Revival clean, so they're likely building to a feud, which would be much more intriguing with the added tension of the blood feud between Ciampa and Gargano.

The Lacey Evans 'Lady In Red' tease was just strange. Word is that they want to give her a big push.

Look, I understand their need to develop new stars. But throwing the very best that NXT has to offer on the show w/o context does nobody any favors. I don't see ratings success from this show, to put it mildly.
Ditched cable so now RAW anymore but that's never a good sign, since RAW after ppvs are usually pretty upbeat.
 

Symphony Steve

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Raw and Smackdown are watered down and written for audiences between 6-12.
It’s a children’s show now or Vince is trying to burn the shows down for the insurance money because the product is suppose to be trying now and they are mailing in WM season shows.
I don’t even DVR the show anymore it’s just read it in 5 minutes and thank goodness because the shows just suck.
Problem is, it's not their intent to write for the 6-12 set. That's not the demographic the networks seek, at least not from Raw. I think Vince is panicking b/c he recognizes the audience attrition but, at his age and with his mindset, he doesn't know how to reverse it. Hence, hotshot booking with new guys. BTW, it looks like two of the acts who premiered only a month ago have already flopped, and haven't been seen for a couple of weeks.
 

OrangeDW

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Watching Saturday Night’s Main Event from Feb. 92.

Man, they really switched directions here. Were all set to do Hogan-Flair and instead had Sid Justice turn heel on Hogan. Switched to Flair-Savage when there had been zero story or interaction to that point? Those two were so amazing that they made it work, but still...the Mania title match should go on last and be built prior to Feb.

They suddenly turned Undertaker face...after he wrestled at this event as a heel.

Kinda think they should’ve kept Savage-Jake Roberts going and have the blow off at Mania rather than on SNME. Most heated rivalry of the year deserves a Mania blowoff match.

Do Hogan-Flair. Maybe have Sid turn and cost Hogan the match there.

Maybe do Sid-Taker at Mania. Have Sid lose and act like a punk about it, and have him complete his turn later on Hogan.

To me that’s a much better usage of that combination of 6 guys based on the storylines that had been going on.
 

NineOneSeven

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Problem is, it's not their intent to write for the 6-12 set. That's not the demographic the networks seek, at least not from Raw. I think Vince is panicking b/c he recognizes the audience attrition but, at his age and with his mindset, he doesn't know how to reverse it. Hence, hotshot booking with new guys. BTW, it looks like two of the acts who premiered only a month ago have already flopped, and haven't been seen for a couple of weeks.
Who?
 

Knicks411

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Watching Saturday Night’s Main Event from Feb. 92.

Man, they really switched directions here. Were all set to do Hogan-Flair and instead had Sid Justice turn heel on Hogan. Switched to Flair-Savage when there had been zero story or interaction to that point? Those two were so amazing that they made it work, but still...the Mania title match should go on last and be built prior to Feb.

They suddenly turned Undertaker face...after he wrestled at this event as a heel.

Kinda think they should’ve kept Savage-Jake Roberts going and have the blow off at Mania rather than on SNME. Most heated rivalry of the year deserves a Mania blowoff match.

Do Hogan-Flair. Maybe have Sid turn and cost Hogan the match there.

Maybe do Sid-Taker at Mania. Have Sid lose and act like a punk about it, and have him complete his turn later on Hogan.

To me that’s a much better usage of that combination of 6 guys based on the storylines that had been going on.
Crazy to think they never went with Hogan-Flair on PPV. the story I think is Vince promised Sid the mania main event to get him to jump from WCW. But man, Hogan and Flair at mania seems like a no brainer
 

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