Year to Year "Succession Planning"

[IthacaMatt]

To keep up a certain consistency in the program - and no losing seasons in 40 years is the most consistent team out there - Boeheim typically has 3 returnees that he can use to build with. Typically 2 front court players and a guard, or a guard, swingman and a big.

Next year, our 3 building blocks would have been Mali, Lydon and Roberson, and you see a nice balance there, a slasher, a shooter, and some physical presence. Now Battle is thrust into Mali's spot because Frank and Coleman are not going to be statistical leaders for this team next year, in all likelihood. Not that they won't be important contributors, but they are not "building blocks" for an elite team.

And that's what we aspire to be - elite - especially with JB reaching the end. We don't have years to waste. That's why this is another shot to the nuts. We've been a player or two away from elite for a few years now. We've made it back to the Final Four, indicating to me, anyway, that our defense has gotten so much better than it used to be in the last 10 years or so.

But we've had no dependable offense for almost as long. We've been short a shooter, or a post player, or a true point guard ever since about 2010, if you ask me, or certainly since 2012, although Scoop and Brandon were not elite offensive guards. They both certainly fit our system, but neither guy was an elite scorer.

Battle's very good, but he will be a freshman, and we are only adding two guys so far in this recruiting class, not counting our rent-a-senior. That baffles me, how we don't have ANYBODY for these spots. It seems to me you should not be giving up on players and showing them the door because they're not "good enough" when you have literally NO ONE to replace them. I mean, What, coach. Isn't that what COACHING is for, to make players better?

 

[Shark58]

the recipe is easy:

take 1 part ncaaholes (BJ) and add 1 part bust pg (KJ), add in a few early jumps and stir well

serve chilled with a side of chuckwu

 

[IthacaMatt]

the recipe is easy:

take 1 part ncaaholes (BJ) and add 1 part bust pg (KJ), add in a few early jumps and stir well

serve chilled with a side of chuckwu

Eh, I find the recruiting a little lax the last couple years. Seems like we haven't closed aggressively on guys, but rather have been strung along a lot longer than in recent years, and we haven't been looking at very many prospects each year.

 

[orangehomer]

maybe battle is john wall

 

[Cusefan0307]

Eh, I find the recruiting a little lax the last couple years. Seems like we haven't closed aggressively on guys, but rather have been strung along a lot longer than in recent years, and we haven't been looking at very many prospects each year.

Great OP. I agree with everything you have posted. I feel the exact same way. We needed to be more aggressive in recruiting. We could have went after Kevin Huerter harder last summer fall even after we got Battle. We told him to go to prep for a year cause we didn't think we would have a spot. If we had got him he instantly would have been the 2nd best shooter on the team after Lydon and he could also play the point. Since we didn't have any spots at the time, we backed off.

We need three guards for 2017 IMO because I know Battle is going to be a one and done. You have to assume that now to build your roster.

 

[Cheriehoop]

Recruiting is usually at least a 3 year process , I think unexpected departures for the NBA totally messed with our program's recruiting process. We aren't a Kentucky nor a Duke and we didn't recruit anticipating all these early departures so we are entering late for replacements. Has to be a real challenge trying to develop depth while trying to keep our consistent excellence on the court. Add the reduction in scholarships, our margin for error has been really reduced. I'm impressed how well our teams have fared and how the staff has faced and adapted to these new challenges.

 

[two3zone]

Recruiting is usually at least a 3 year process , I think unexpected departures for the NBA totally messed with our program's recruiting process. We aren't a Kentucky nor a Duke and we didn't recruit anticipating all these early departures so we are entering late for replacements. Has to be a real challenge trying to develop depth while trying to keep our consistent excellence on the court. Add the reduction in scholarships, our margin for error has been really reduced. I'm impressed how well our teams have fared and how the staff has faced and adapted to these new challenges.

Everybody knew after two years ago that BJ and Buss would probably leave. Both over recruited, both not playing much, and both playing under par.

By the time KJ got benched, thought that was pretty clear that he was gone, Chin, could have stuck around Matt Gorman style.

Out of these for guys, the staff and to figure out at some point that these guys were gone.

Even if you didn't think these guys were leaving, I'm still wondering why outside of KJ and maybe BJ we brought them in to begin with.

 

[RF2044]

Recruiting is usually at least a 3 year process , I think unexpected departures for the NBA totally messed with our program's recruiting process. We aren't a Kentucky nor a Duke and we didn't recruit anticipating all these early departures so we are entering late for replacements. Has to be a real challenge trying to develop depth while trying to keep our consistent excellence on the court. Add the reduction in scholarships, our margin for error has been really reduced. I'm impressed how well our teams have fared and how the staff has faced and adapted to these new challenges.

Spot on. The departures have clearly hurt the depth / roster balance.

The question is: should we have been prepared for it. I honestly believe that JB was NOT expecting the following players to depart when they did: Grant, Ennis, McCullough [who came in as a known kid who wanted to be one-and-done], or Mali.

Was he really that blindsided? Why didn't we have backup plans?

To the OP's point, we've been a key player or two away since 2012. This isn't all that dissimilar to what happened immediately after 2003 when we won and Carmelo left. Those next three years, those teams were flawed and missing a SF who could shoot [maybe Nichols could have been that guy earlier]. Then we struck out at the point after GMac [the Josh Wright flop]. Then Greene left a year earlier than expected, undermining what could have been a powerhouse team in 2009.

Really, outside of 2010 and 2012, our teams have been fundamentally flawed in one way or another every season since 2003.

 

[two3zone]

Spot on. The departures have clearly hurt the depth / roster balance.

The question is: should we have been prepared for it. I honestly believe that JB was NOT expecting the following players to depart when they did: Grant, Ennis, McCullough [who came in as a known kid who wanted to be one-and-done], or Mali.

Was he really that blindsided? Why didn't we have backup plans?

To the OP's point, we've been a key player or two away since 2012. This isn't all that dissimilar to what happened immediately after 2003 when we won and Carmelo left. Those next three years, those teams were flawed and missing a SF who could shoot [maybe Nichols could have been that guy earlier]. Then we struck out at the point after GMac [the Josh Wright flop]. Then Greene left a year earlier than expected, undermining what could have been a powerhouse team in 2009.

Really, outside of 2010 and 2012, our teams have been fundamentally flawed in one way or another every season since 2003.

If he didn't realize Ennis was gone by the time 25-0 hit, or Grant was gone (was on draft boards before the season started) then he needs to get with the times.

 

[Briancuse]

If he didn't realize Ennis was gone by the time 25-0 hit, or Grant was gone (was on draft boards before the season started) then he needs to get with the times.

I don't remember exactly where those guys were listed in mock drafts back then, but it wasn't 100 percent that they were gone.

 

[two3zone]

I don't remember exactly where those guys were listed in mock drafts back then, but it wasn't 100 percent that they were gone.

It doesn't have to be 100% to have contingency plans. Instead you're caught sitting there with your junk in your hands not knowing what to do.

 

[Briancuse]

It doesn't have to be 100% to have contingency plans. Instead you're caught sitting there with your junk in your hands not knowing what to do.

Grant was a 2nd round pick, and Ennis was probably 50/50 to leave.

 

[SoBristol]

Spot on. The departures have clearly hurt the depth / roster balance.

********

Really, outside of 2010 and 2012, our teams have been fundamentally flawed in one way or another every season since 2003.

The 2012 team lost in the Elite 8 (Fab's academics were a fundamental flaw), but we had Final 4 teams in 2013 and 2016, and a 25-0 start in 2014 before a late swoon. So, "fundamentally flawed" means real good, just not quite good enough to win out.

We lacked a top-tier center every year except in 2015 (bad timing). We could have used a better 2-guard, with Cooney in reserve.

 

[Cusefan0307]

The biggest issue is always offense. Defensively, we are always fine. We are always one guy short on offense. I get we recruit for the zone, but I'd kill for one or two offensive skill guys, who maybe don't have high upside, but can be great college shooters, kind of like some of the guys Notre Dame recruits to play the 2 or 3.

 

[SoBristol]

The biggest issue is always offense. Defensively, we are always fine. We are always one guy short on offense. I get we recruit for the zone, but I'd kill for one or two offensive skill guys, who maybe don't have high upside, but can be great college shooters, kind of like some of the guys Notre Dame recruits to play the 2 or 3.

We got cut up inside on defense this past season, for lack of a defensive center.

 

[tbonezone]

Recruiting is usually at least a 3 year process , I think unexpected departures for the NBA totally messed with our program's recruiting process. We aren't a Kentucky nor a Duke and we didn't recruit anticipating all these early departures so we are entering late for replacements. Has to be a real challenge trying to develop depth while trying to keep our consistent excellence on the court. Add the reduction in scholarships, our margin for error has been really reduced. I'm impressed how well our teams have fared and how the staff has faced and adapted to these new challenges.

but this is the new recruiting reality. and has been for several years. the unexpected early departures. we need to limit them.
is that an easy job? no. impossible no. but it's why coaches get paid the big bucks. our roster management has to improve imo.

 

[Delmar]

There is no science or predictability to this. If we lose to Virginia, Mali is back. The cost of a Final Four is you lose some of your talent that you thought would be around longer. There is absolutely no way to plan for that. Look at Duke last year. They became an also-ran (and a good thing too, because without the win at Cameron, we are NIT bound) because they won the tourney the year before.

There is some comfort in knowing that every program is in the same boat. Last year's team wouldn't have made the Sweet 16 ten years ago. We are extremely fortunate to have a coaching staff that gets the most out of the talent at hand (even though I wish he would go 9 or 10 deep). Going to the Final Four last year may have been JB's greatest achievement, but it cost us Mali. That's the way it works.

 

[tbonezone]

well not all our kids jump due to final fours. some barely played in the tournament. it's a new metric we haven't fully grasped.
grayson allen is back next year. malachi richardson is not. easy to explain ? no. but there is a reason there.
and college coaching success at least for the next decade demands that you master this new dynamic.

 

[Delmar]

well not all our kids jump due to final fours. some barely played in the tournament. it's a new metric we haven't fully grasped.
grayson allen is back next year. malachi richardson is not. easy to explain ? no. but there is a reason there.

True. Duke is going to hold on to some because they are going to Duke for academics. But in recent years at Duke, Grayson Allen is the outlier. Duke has had a ton of one-and-dones recently.

You would think that SU could hold on to a few recruits because of Newhouse and Sports journalism, but I don't know of a case where that has worked out. Maybe others here do.

 

[cuseattle]

True. Duke is going to hold on to some because they are going to Duke for academics. But in recent years at Duke, Grayson Allen is the outlier. Duke has had a ton of one-and-dones recently.

You would think that SU could hold on to a few recruits because of Newhouse and Sports journalism, but I don't know of a case where that has worked out. Maybe others here do.

I bet Moyer earns his Newhouse degree, but he might just do it in three years.

 

[Dave85]

maybe battle is john wall

Then what the is holding up your house? That's not the joke here? Sorry.

 

[Fly Rodder]

... If we lose to Virginia, Mali is back.

I don't necessarily believe that and haven't. I think he was getting interest once conference play was underway. NBA scouts aren't kittens chasing after the shiniest object and they're not basing anything off of one game. There probably have been guys keeping tabs Malachi since his junior year in high school. He was a Mickie Ds, people knew who he was before the VA game. Just be cause he wasn't on any mockdrafts doesn't mean he wasn't on someone's radar.

 

[Fly Rodder]

If Battle plays like John Wall, the No. 1 HS recruit, consensus 1st team AA, and No. 1 Overall Pick ... that would be -in' amazing.

I think the "unexpected" departures are all the more reason to have concerns about the roster being so short right now why preparing for departures is so important. This next class is going to have to be amazing, and SU isn't the only school gunning after all these top-30 kids. Duke just brought in a hammer of a class this season and will probably have to replace plenty of those guy next year. K has totally bought into the 1 & dones. I don't think SU isn't going to beat out UK, Duke, KU and Zona for six top-30 players just because they have a bunch of open roster spots.

 

[IthacaMatt]

maybe battle is john wall

Gillon's game is a lot closer to John Wall, both in terms of style of play and size. Battle is built like Mali Richardson, but is not quite the outside shooter than Mali is, but might be better getting to the rim.

 

[IthacaMatt]

The biggest issue is always offense. Defensively, we are always fine. We are always one guy short on offense. I get we recruit for the zone, but I'd kill for one or two offensive skill guys, who maybe don't have high upside, but can be great college shooters, kind of like some of the guys Notre Dame recruits to play the 2 or 3.

I totally agree. And we used to have one of those designated shooters on the bench, back in the old days. How long has it been?