An age old discussion (minutes logged)

[OttoMets]

A few things:

-the zone and TV time outs rests our guys enough.
...

They also rest the opponents.

The concern isn't if our players are as fresh as possible (they can't be) but rather whether they're better rested than their counterparts on the other team.

 

[Bayside44]

They also rest the opponents.

The concern isn't if our players are as fresh as possible (they can't be) but rather whether they're better rested than their counterparts on the other team.

A gassed Cooney is a better option than a rested Buss I would think.

 

[dollarbill44]

Riley getting additional playing time during the season against a few more cupcakes was not going to leave him much more ready than he was, despite what you believe. As jordoo pointed out, there were numerous factors other than Riley's performance that contributed more to the Butler loss. As I recall watching that game at the time, I thought Riley played pretty well, all things considered. Pinning that loss on his performance that day (and by extension JB's use of him during the regular season) is revisionist history at its worst.

I have a real problem with the first statement in bold, because I think what most of us arguing for using a deeper bench are suggesting is playing more guys throughout the entire season, not just in December against the cupcakes. If Riley had gotten 5+ minutes a game against the likes of Louisville, Marquette, UConn, ND, etc, I think he would have been far more ready to play against Butler and may have played even better than he did. I don't think anyone here is pinning the loss on Riley.

As far as him playing pretty well "all things considered" - what does that mean exactly? Is a lack of readiness what is being "considered" here? A lack of familiarity with the rest of the regulars? What exactly are you considering?

 

[dollarbill44]

A gassed Cooney is a better option than a rested Buss I would think.

What about a fresher Cooney vs a gassed Cooney?

 

[Bayside44]

What about a fresher Cooney vs a gassed Cooney?

I can see G at 2, McC and Roberson but they had foul trouble, so...

End of the day this team has flaws all over the place, have to trust the coach on what the best answers are.

 

[djcon57]

1 NCAA championship...and we played 8 consistently

The final 4 a couple years back. Grant was forced experience through James' suspension so he was ready to play in tourney

Everyone can think this is a coincidence. I don't.

 

[CuseCPT]

Over the past 20 years SU's record in OT games is 20-8. If fatigue from playing a short bench was having a "negative effect on games outcomes", why is SU so successful in games that are longer than 40 minutes?

Adrenaline can carry you through an individual game, it can't carry you through a whole season. A big part of the spread the minutes camp's issue is cumulative fatigue/injuries. While what you posted is true, it doesn't address that concern at all.

 

[CuseCPT]

What about a fresher Cooney vs a gassed Cooney?

Both options inferior to a fresh Cooney that appears to be gassed.

 

[HastingsCuse]

1 NCAA championship...and we played 8 consistently

The final 4 a couple years back. Grant was forced experience through James' suspension so he was ready to play in tourney

Everyone can think this is a coincidence. I don't.

2002-2003 season doesn't support your argument. Yes we played an 8 player rotation but 3 players rarely came out. Melo 36.4 min per game, GMAC 35.3 min per game and Warrick 32.7. Every player on this year's team is playing fewer minutes per game than Melo and GMAC in 2002-2003.

 

[Forloveoforange]

McCullough is appearing gassed to me, also, but I could be wrong.

 

[djcon57]

2002-2003 season doesn't support your argument. Yes we played an 8 player rotation but 3 players rarely came out. Melo 36.4 min per game, GMAC 35.3 min per game and Warrick 32.7. Every player on this year's team is playing fewer minutes per game than Melo and GMAC in 2002-2003.

GMac's #s were skewed by early season w/o Billy.

Guarantee Cooney is higher than GMac by end of season. That's not a good thing
Cooney is currently at 35 and Joseph is at 33. This is not a good thing

 

[dollarbill44]

2002-2003 season doesn't support your argument. Yes we played an 8 player rotation but 3 players rarely came out. Melo 36.4 min per game, GMAC 35.3 min per game and Warrick 32.7. Every player on this year's team is playing fewer minutes per game than Melo and GMAC in 2002-2003.

We haven't left December yet so the numbers are skewed towards the bench players. Let's revisit this comparison in late February.

 

[two3zone]

I don't see how game fresh BJ, Buss, and Chin are better than tired Cooney, G and Rak. Most years id agree but this year every game is too close to risk it.

 

[anomander]

I don't see how game fresh BJ, Buss, and Chin are better than tired Cooney, G and Rak. Most years id agree but this year every game is too close to risk it.

Apparently other then JB and his supporters are the only few that implement this strategy. Amazing how much better Louisville, Michigan, Uconn, and everybody elses subs must be then ours. Take a look around. JB is one of the very few who use a 6 man rotation in close games. Every other coach, even ones with better credentials, have no problem substituting starters for bench players. Am I to assume all of their subs are just as good as their starters?

 

[anglerman]

Anyone who thinks players don't get tired is simply incorrect. Any one that thinks JB playing 6-7 guys is Ok is simply incorrect. This isn't one of his strong points I honestly think that he is afraid to lose. So much so that he is afraid to put in an inferior player. Th is simply a mistake. No coach is worse with his bench than JB at any level of the sport that I have ever seen Can anyone here name a coach that uses his bench less than JB? I would like to hear just one name

Every single year people on this board defend this failed strategy by pointing out the players that don't start aren't as good. Guess what? That's true on every single team on the planet for the most part. He NEVER uses his bench against good teams. I mean NEVER. I've even seen him fullckurt pressing with 5 or 6 guys. Sorry fellas that's a terrible strategy and he does it time and again

 

[djcon57]

Anyone who thinks players don't get tired is simply incorrect. Any one that thinks JB playing 6-7 guys is Ok is simply incorrect. This isn't one of his strong points I honestly think that he is afraid to lose. So much so that he is afraid to put in an inferior player. Th is simply a mistake. No coach is worse with his bench than JB at any level of the sport that I have ever seen Can anyone here name a coach that uses his bench less than JB? I would like to hear just one name

Every single year people on this board defend this failed strategy by pointing out the players that don't start aren't as good. Guess what? That's true on every single team on the planet for the most part. He NEVER uses his bench against good teams. I mean NEVER. I've even seen him fullckurt pressing with 5 or 6 guys. Sorry fellas that's a terrible strategy and he does it time and again

When you say stuff like this...the rest of your points (and others that share your view) are basically ignored and it kills the discussion on this board. Stuff like "Cooney isn't D1" and "No coach is worse with his bench in any sport than JB" become the talking points equivalents to "He's HOF, who are you".

There's legit arguments to be made and legit discussion to be had.

 

[two3zone]

Apparently other then JB and his supporters are the only few that implement this strategy. Amazing how much better Louisville, Michigan, Uconn, and everybody elses subs must be then ours. Take a look around. JB is one of the very few who use a 6 man rotation in close games. Every other coach, even ones with better credentials, have no problem substituting starters for bench players. Am I to assume all of their subs are just as good as their starters?

Yeah, if you look at when we used 8 man rotations that we had capable guys off of the bench, we don't now and that's a fact.

It doesn't take a genius to figure out when Ennis averaged 35 minutes last year and Fair averaged 37, taking 4-5 minutes off of each guy per game I doubt does much for them at the end of the season when it comes to fatigue, if anything it probably adds a couple of losses to our record.

I'm not defending JB at all on this, I'm going by what our roster usually is, we don't have the luxury that Kentucky, Duke, and the rest of these powers do, if we did and we had 6 MCAA's on our roster I would be saying that we need to go deeper as well. Stop recruiting guys that can't help you right off the bat and you wont run into problems. Roberson should have been ready last season, but Buss, and BJ were not, they're projects. Move into this year and Buss and BJ still aren't ready and Chinoso is a project. When you want to groom somebody for a position for 3 years like Chinoso you have to expect them not to be ready when you need him the first couple of years. It's not JB's coaching, it's the recruiting and the reediness of players coming in.

 

[nolacuse44]

Anyone who thinks players don't get tired is simply incorrect. Any one that thinks JB playing 6-7 guys is Ok is simply incorrect. This isn't one of his strong points I honestly think that he is afraid to lose. So much so that he is afraid to put in an inferior player. Th is simply a mistake. No coach is worse with his bench than JB at any level of the sport that I have ever seen Can anyone here name a coach that uses his bench less than JB? I would like to hear just one name

Every single year people on this board defend this failed strategy by pointing out the players that don't start aren't as good. Guess what? That's true on every single team on the planet for the most part. He NEVER uses his bench against good teams. I mean NEVER. I've even seen him fullckurt pressing with 5 or 6 guys. Sorry fellas that's a terrible strategy and he does it time and again

yeah, and when you consider, as you also so adroitly pointed out, that JB purposely limited the success of the (34-3) 2011-12 team by not playing MCW so he wouldn't leave for the NBA after his freshman year, it is just incredible that the guy continues to be SU's head coach. :blah:

 

[pfister1]

Yeah, if you look at when we used 8 man rotations that we had capable guys off of the bench, we don't now and that's a fact.

What you said is not a fact, it is ridiculous. We do have capable players on the bench and with the trust of their coach and more playing time they will be even more capable sooner.

Are they as good as the starters?? Well I guess it depends on which subs you are comparing to which starters. Over the course of the first 11 games we've had guys 3 different guys start at the small forward spot and there is little question that Patterson could man the guard spot for a few minutes a game without the wheels coming off. Just like with Joseph this year, there would be stretches where you would curse his inexperience and others where he'd probably start to look good.

We don't have a very deep bench this year, but we do have guys that can contribute.

 

[two3zone]

What you said is not a fact, it is ridiculous. We do have capable players on the bench and with the trust of their coach and more playing time they will be even more capable sooner.

Are they as good as the starters?? Well I guess it depends on which subs you are comparing to which starters. Over the course of the first 11 games we've had guys 3 different guys start at the small forward spot and there is little question that Patterson could man the guard spot for a few minutes a game without the wheels coming off. Just like with Joseph this year, there would be stretches where you would curse his inexperience and others where he'd probably start to look good.

We don't have a very deep bench this year, but we do have guys that can contribute.

Who is Chinoso better than? Who's minutes should he get? Who should BJ get minutes over? Who should Buss be getting minutes over?

I can see Buss getting some of Kaleb's minutes but even then we have G running the point which isn't a good thing.

We not an excellent team to begin with and with the close games we've played this year and I'm sure there are more to come, every single minute counts. I don't think I'm crazy when I say I'd rather have an exhausted Cooney out there than a rested Buss.

 

[Eagles20]

Who is Chinoso better than? Who's minutes should he get? Who should BJ get minutes over? Who should Buss be getting minutes over?

I can see Buss getting some of Kaleb's minutes but even then we have G running the point which isn't a good thing.

We not an excellent team to begin with and with the close games we've played this year and I'm sure there are more to come, every single minute counts. I don't think I'm crazy when I say I'd rather have an exhausted Cooney out there than a rested Buss.

Buss over Joseph for a few minutes isn't crazy. My opinion is he's better positionally in the zone and stronger. At the end of the nova game against nova's pressure kaleb couldn't even move 3 feet because he was tied up. Was it because he was tired, maybe not, but he is definitely weaker. Joseph is far from that much more superior to be playing 40 plus minutes against nova while buss played connect 4 on the bench with BJ.

It's not even about better vs worse. It's about managing your players minutes throughout a game and season. Sitting for 5 minutes a game might not seem a lot, but when you are playing 30 games it will add up. Outside of cooney,christmas, and Mike G no one on this team is that much better than their sub.

 

[bozophobe]

Who is Chinoso better than? Who's minutes should he get? Who should BJ get minutes over? Who should Buss be getting minutes over?

I can see Buss getting some of Kaleb's minutes but even then we have G running the point which isn't a good thing.

We not an excellent team to begin with and with the close games we've played this year and I'm sure there are more to come, every single minute counts. I don't think I'm crazy when I say I'd rather have an exhausted Cooney out there than a rested Buss.

You may be asking all the wrong questions, and maybe flirting with various straw man and red herring arguments.

For starters, nobody is saying any bench player should 'get minutes over' any starter. One major idea is simply to get a few to several minutes rest for key starters so that they can endure longer, concentrate on free throws or other plays better, and maybe even reduce the chance for injury. Factory data since the Dickens years shows exhausted people are more likely to get hurt (not including freak mishaps here - nor blaming coaches), and more prone to general error.

Also, the very definition of "sub" implies that, of course, a team's performance will be diminished while they were in. Nobody is suggesting they'll really gun the team into overdrive where the starters would fail. And opposing teams will likely sub out at some point, too - which will mean inferior players on the floor for them, as well.

We're no longer in those recent years where few teams in the US could match those SU substitutions where a fresh pair including people like Kris Joseph, Scoop, Din or MCW would often instigate a huge run that would change the game. And even the 2002-2003 team set a then-record for comeback wins (around 17?)

Obviously, this year's team doesn't have the same bench as that of those years. But even if it can't be proven that 3-5 extra minutes a game will vastly improve the development of young subs, the benefits to the starters seem to be heavy. And I'm no longer sold on the use of examples of past glories where SU starters prevailed even with 37-40-48 minutes. Many of those were grueling battles to the wire; some of which went into overtime. And if they had to play the next day (like in 2009)...

 

[anomander]

Yeah, if you look at when we used 8 man rotations that we had capable guys off of the bench, we don't now and that's a fact.

It doesn't take a genius to figure out when Ennis averaged 35 minutes last year and Fair averaged 37, taking 4-5 minutes off of each guy per game I doubt does much for them at the end of the season when it comes to fatigue, if anything it probably adds a couple of losses to our record.

I'm not defending JB at all on this, I'm going by what our roster usually is, we don't have the luxury that Kentucky, Duke, and the rest of these powers do, if we did and we had 6 MCAA's on our roster I would be saying that we need to go deeper as well. Stop recruiting guys that can't help you right off the bat and you wont run into problems. Roberson should have been ready last season, but Buss, and BJ were not, they're projects. Move into this year and Buss and BJ still aren't ready and Chinoso is a project. When you want to groom somebody for a position for 3 years like Chinoso you have to expect them not to be ready when you need him the first couple of years. It's not JB's coaching, it's the recruiting and the reediness of players coming in.

I'm not talking about how Boeheim uses his bench. We all know he only uses his bench guys if he has 100% confidence in them. My point is very few, if any other coach has as tight a bench as him. So again what you are saying is that Pitino must feel that Mangonk Mathiang is just as good as Montrezl Harrel, or Quentin Snider is just as good as Chris Jones? And I keep bringing up Pitino because he is one of the best examples of a coach who isn't afraid to use his bench early in the year, even if it means taking some lumps. His teams almost always seem to improve as the season goes on, usually reaching their fullest potential come February, and March. I don't care what anybody says, I won't be convinced that it has nothing to do with his willingness to develop his bench, getting young guys valuable experience, and keeping the best players fresh.

 

[anglerman]

yeah, and when you consider, as you also so adroitly pointed out, that JB purposely limited the success of the (34-3) 2011-12 team by not playing MCW iso he wouldn't leave for the NBA after his freshman year, it is just incredible that the guy continues to be SU's head coach. :blah:

This doesn't mean it's not a poor strategy It's actually ridiculous that it's not obvious to everyone. HOF coaches are human too. They make mistakes and this is his biggest downfall.

 

[two3zone]

I'm not talking about how Boeheim uses his bench. We all know he only uses his bench guys if he has 100% confidence in them. My point is very few, if any other coach has as tight a bench as him. So again what you are saying is that Pitino must feel that Mangonk Mathiang is just as good as Montrezl Harrel, or Quentin Snider is just as good as Chris Jones? And I keep bringing up Pitino because he is one of the best examples of a coach who isn't afraid to use his bench early in the year, even if it means taking some lumps. His teams almost always seem to improve as the season goes on, usually reaching their fullest potential come February, and March. I don't care what anybody says, I won't be convinced that it has nothing to do with his willingness to develop his bench, getting young guys valuable experience, and keeping the best players fresh.

So Harrel played 38 minutes against UNC Willimington, 34 against Indiana, 33 against FIU, 34 against Ohio State, 40 against Cleveland State, and 39 against Minnesota.

He then played 20+ minutes in the other games, which were all dominating victories. Look at last nights game, none of our guys topped 30 minutes. If we were up by 30 against Villinova I'm sure our bench would have had some play.