Credit to Mike Waters…

[Scooch]

And we won a lot.

A few weeks ago people had Maliq Brown as some kind of savior because he could more or less catch and put back. The talent stinks in any set we put out there.

I agree. Merely saying that JB's reflexive "we can't play man, we're a zone team" has been said for two-plus decades. No one should buy it, he's said it regardless of talent level. And all those talented guys went on to play man in the NBA.

 

[Cusefan0307]

And we won a lot.

A few weeks ago people had Maliq Brown as some kind of savior because he could more or less catch and put back. The talent stinks in any set we put out there.

I agree the talent is not as good, but do you really think we would give up as many 3 point attempts and offensive rebounds in man?

KenPom has 20 plus years of data showing us to be a bad defensive rebounding team going back to the 90’s.

Our goal should be to run teams off the line. We don’t.

 

[Bayside44]

I agree the talent is not as good, but do you really think we would give up as many 3 point attempts and offensive rebounds in man?

KenPom has 20 plus years of data showing us to be a bad defensive rebounding team going back to the 90’s.

Our goal should be to run teams off the line. We don’t.

I do. I think our talent is not close to par. Guys running around lost in a zone won't find religion in man.

All these guys come from an AAU culture of just outscoring opponents. JB doesn't do that. It must be like Frank Sinatra looking at Elvis or the Stone and just cringing to JB.

I watch a decent amount of WCAC basketball - kids are hitting 28 foot 3s against man like it's nothing. Then the other team comes down and does the same.

 

[MDCuse]

He said they tried to install a man-to-man defense in the summer and the fall.

And, the players couldn't play it.

Seems like a reasonable answer to me.

99 points from Pitt says the can't play zone

 

[PhatOrange]

There have been thousands of players like that. Bell is the least effective regular starter in the last ~30 years based on the eye test and the statistics. Points per game in context or otherwise. Mookie Jones could shoot too.

I only compare Syracuse players to Syracuse players. Mookie should've played more but he was also on a team with Kris Joseph, CJ Fair and Southerland.

30 years goes back to what 1993? Since 2000 our SF's have been (give or take) Shumpert, Melo, Nichols, Paul Harris, Mike Jones, Kris Joseph, Mookie Jones, CJ Fair, GBinje, BJ Johnson, Lydon?, Hughes, Guerrier ?, Newton,

We've had some very good small forwards and some not so good small forwards. Only 1 or 2 have been good from the day they walked on the court. Most of the above players became successful as juniors.

 

[Bayside44]

Does Colgate have better talent than SU?

They clearly play better together.

 

[Bayside44]

I agree. Merely saying that JB's reflexive "we can't play man, we're a zone team" has been said for two-plus decades. No one should buy it, he's said it regardless of talent level. And all those talented guys went on to play man in the NBA.

I just don't get hung up on that, JB says stuff. Offense wins now.

We have one and half guys on the court that would've seen the court for us even a few years ago.

 

[Fly Rodder]

I only compare Syracuse players to Syracuse players. Mookie should've played more but he was also on a team with Kris Joseph, CJ Fair and Southerland.

30 years goes back to what 1993? Since 2000 our SF's have been (give or take) Shumpert, Melo, Nichols, Paul Harris, Mike Jones, Kris Joseph, Mookie Jones, CJ Fair, GBinje, BJ Johnson, Lydon?, Hughes, Guerrier ?, Newton,

We've had some very good small forwards and some not so good small forwards. Only 1 or 2 have been good from the day they walked on the court. Most of the above players became successful as juniors.

If you want on the Bell train, have at it. The stats don't support Bell.

 

[richard levy]

Excellent point although there have been a few players over the last five years that have rarely ever been singled out for criticism.

Buddy

 

[PhatOrange]

A few things I know in this man to man versus zone discussion is that Joe Girard can't play either defense and Jesse Edwards wouldn't be able to play man to man either. Taylor would struggle. Bell would struggle though I think both he and Taylor could play it with practice.

People throw around 'they've been playing man2man their whole lives. But the difference is they probably weren't playing it very well. Teams don't play defense in high school or AAU. Were anyone on this team offered by schools who get after it on defense? Duke and Joe? Maybe but he wouldn't have left their bench. There are 359 teams who play m2m but most of them aren't very good.

IMO, guys on this team with good lateral quickness and instincts who could jump right in and play man in the ACC are Mintz, Torrence, Brown and Benny; maybe Copeland. JB plays zone as much to hide weak man defenders like Girard and Edwards and I single those 2 out because they are 60% of the offense so they have to play.

Where JB has failed defensively is mixing it up and not just zone/m2m. But pressing and full court trapping and some 1-3-1 stuff. If anyone remembers the last game or few games of last year he did this and it was very successful. So successful that I thought we'd see a lot of that mix this year and we haven't.

 

[Cusefan0307]

I do. I think our talent is not close to par. Guys running around lost in a zone won't find religion in man.

All these guys come from an AAU culture of just outscoring opponents. JB doesn't do that. It must be like Frank Sinatra looking at Elvis or the Stone and just cringing to JB.

I watch a decent amount of WCAC basketball - kids are hitting 28 foot 3s against man like it's nothing. Then the other team comes down and does the same.

I'm not saying we would be great at man, but I don't think we would be giving up 40 3 point attempts in a game either.

BC is not good and they give up 3 less makes per game than we do playing man. They are better at defense and rebounding than us. They just cannot score.

Geogia Tech has given up 100 less threes than us!

 

[Bayside44]

I'm not saying we would be great at man, but I don't think we would be giving up 40 3 point attempts in a game either.

BC is not good and they give up 3 less makes per game than we do playing man. They are better at defense and rebounding than us. They just cannot score.

Geogia Tech has given up less more than 100 less threes than us!

IMO we just don't have a clue - it's March on Wed and we're still guessing on who to play. Either just commit to scoring or forget it.

I think Bell and Benny would get torched chasing guys around, same with Joe.

We went from having guys that could win in every game they played, to having guys that could compete in every game they played, to having guys that can compete in many games they play.

 

[Fly Rodder]

and Jesse Edwards wouldn't be able to play man to man either.

This makes zero sense to me. How do you support this? He's one of the best shot blockers and rebounders in the ACC, hence agility and athleticism. Have you watched him play M2M?

 

[PhatOrange]

If you want on the Bell train, have at it. The stats don't support Bell.

There is no Bell train, I said he could shoot and said if he works hard on the other parts of his game he could be a high level player. All true.

 

[AZOrange]

And we won a lot.

A few weeks ago people had Maliq Brown as some kind of savior because he could more or less catch and put back. The talent stinks in any set we put out there.

Much different game then. We have not adapted at all. This zone stuff is such BS.

 

[AZOrange]

Another side point on JBs ability to “adapt”. We have literally run the same god awful press for 40
Years. It’s the worst press I have ever seen

 

[Cusefan0307]

Another side point on JBs ability to “adapt”. We have literally run the same god awful press for 40
Years. It’s the worst press I have ever seen

He learned it from Fred Lewis. That’s how old it is. My HS coach ran the same press as he played for Phil Schoff(JB’s former teammate in the 60’s) and learned it from him.

 

[PhatOrange]

This makes zero sense to me. How do you support this? He's one of the best shot blockers and rebounders in the ACC, hence agility and athleticism. Have you watched him play M2M?

Because he's always in foul trouble playing zone. He leads the team in personal fouls, averages 3.6 per 40 minutes and 5.4 per 100 possessions. All playing zone. You think he'd fair better playing man ? He'd get manhandled if he had to play post man defense every time down the court.

You define man defense by shot blocking and rebounding ? lol...smh

 

[NKR1978]

If the staff cant recruit players who can play man to man, I gotta ask if I can get a job at this free money printing nonsense land that is the Syracuse Athletic Department. Players literally grew up playing man to man. Do your jobs better. Miserable.

That notion is an indictment on the entire coaching staff.

 

[Millhouse]

"Shameless"?

After all we have been through over the years??

I was expecting something similar to your timeless response to so many coaches, players and posters with whom you have disagreed since way back when: some form of the word "stupid"

Seriously though, the talk about the zone defense as the problem with this team is really over the top.

The problem is not the system. The problem is not the technical coaching in practice or during the games.

The basic problem is a lack of talent. It may also include a lack of intensity.

Jesse Edwards, with his tendency to commit fouls on virtually every defensive encounter would probably last ten minutes matching up in a man to man defense.

Joe Girardi would be unable to mark a two guard in a man to man defense.

Boeheim may be old, but he is still as smart as any person in college BB and he is there every day.

He isn't playing a man defense for a reason - and that reason is not that he doesn't care about winning.

It is precisely because he cares about winning.

He said he can't coach man. You turned it into "he can't coach" I don't care when people disagree, I'm not sensitive about any of this, I just hate when people pretend people say something they didn't, it stops being fun

 

[Fly Rodder]

Because he's always in foul trouble playing zone. He leads the team in personal fouls, averages 3.6 per 40 minutes and 5.4 per 100 possessions. All playing zone.

That's because he's out of position and not playing a man, but always moving to the ball. This has been a constant problem among SU centers going back 30 years. Jesse is actually one of the best centers at avoiding fouls per 100 possessions, which is much more accurate than per game.

Jesse Edwards - 5.4 personal fouls per 100 possessions
Bourama - 11.8
Chukwu - 8.9
Rak Christmas - 6.0
Tyler Lydon - 4.0
Marek - 4.7
Fab Melo - 6.8
BMK - 10.4

Tyler and Marek didn't play center full time. And of those players, Jesse is best at defensive rebounding percent and only 2nd to Fab Melo in block percentage by 0.5% = meaning he's getting into the mix against opposing offensive players and not just hanging around and not challenging.

The blocks, steals, and rebounds is evidence of his physical ability not evidence of him actually playing M2M. But apparently personal fouls are? In that case, Jesse is one of the best we've had there too.

In the ACC this season, among players with more than 15 total blocks (N=37 and the blocks are used to screen out guards and wings), Jesse is 2nd in rebounding %, first in block %, 4th in steal %, and 4th in PF/G (can't search by per 100 possessions) behind Bacot, Ormier, and Hinson. He is, without a doubt in my mind, the best defender we've had at SU since Etan.

 

[Bayside44]

Much different game then. We have not adapted at all. This zone stuff is such BS.

We have way worse players. Not sure why there are more posts on zone than talent.

 

[CLMintz]

When he said this team can't play man, I have to think he meant this team can't devote practice time to playing man without losing practice time to play zone, resulting in being mediocre on both, that's what meant. They are lousy in both, slow footed and bad scheme.

Actually Judah Mintz is a very good mtm player. Did it at a high level in AAU and at Oak Hill. Don’t know about the others. Symir can D up too.

 

[CLMintz]

That's because he's out of position and not playing a man, but always moving to the ball. This has been a constant problem among SU centers going back 30 years. Jesse is actually one of the best centers at avoiding fouls per 100 possessions, which is much more accurate than per game.

Jesse Edwards - 5.4 personal fouls per 100 possessions
Bourama - 11.8
Chukwu - 8.9
Rak Christmas - 6.0
Tyler Lydon - 4.0
Marek - 4.7
Fab Melo - 6.8
BMK - 10.4

Tyler and Marek didn't play center full time. And of those players, Jesse is best at defensive rebounding percent and only 2nd to Fab Melo in block percentage by 0.5% = meaning he's getting into the mix against opposing offensive players and not just hanging around and not challenging.

The blocks, steals, and rebounds is evidence of his physical ability not evidence of him actually playing M2M. But apparently personal fouls are? In that case, Jesse is one of the best we've had there too.

In the ACC this season, among players with more than 15 total blocks (N=37 and the blocks are used to screen out guards and wings), Jesse is 2nd in rebounding %, first in block %, 4th in steal %, and 4th in PF/G (can't search by per 100 possessions) behind Bacot, Ormier, and Hinson. He is, without a doubt in my mind, the best defender we've had at SU since Etan.

Jesse gets his stats but oftentimes does not affect the outcome of the game. He needs to work on his post moves, strength and balance. Another year should help. But more importantly he needs to be tougher. Plays soft at times.

 

[M2MPrinciples]

I'd be interested in seeing the team play M2M just to see what the floor is, but I'd have no expectations of it being better than the zone. Coaching M2M puts more importance on advanced scouting and understanding of players' tendencies compared to zone and communicating that to players, and I don't have the impression that JB/GMac/Red would thrive there.

Griffin might be another story, though - Even though he wasn't a HC at Dayton, their interior defenses were pretty solid, especially the last 2 seasons before JB brought him back.