Credit to Mike Waters…

[Cusefan0307]

We have way worse players. Not sure why there are more posts on zone than talent.

Personally, I think it's both. And playing zone may correlate to not getting as good of talent.

We have to acknowledge there's worse teams than us giving up less 3's and offensive rebounds.

 

[Bayside44]

Personally, I think it's both. And playing zone may correlate to not getting as good of talent.

We have to acknowledge there's worse teams than us giving up less 3's and offensive rebounds.

These kids score - high school games are putting up crazy points, AAU ball is scoring. The League takes scorers. JB doesn't want to deal with what it takes to get those guys and keep those guys. Plenty of evidence there.

We're not losing out on high end kids because they aren't getting the chance to chase RJ Davis or whomever around. And JB is never going to get undersized b@lls to the wall defender first types to come here. That just isn't who he is.

 

[dollarbill44]

A few things I know in this man to man versus zone discussion is that Joe Girard can't play either defense and Jesse Edwards wouldn't be able to play man to man either. Taylor would struggle. Bell would struggle though I think both he and Taylor could play it with practice.

People throw around 'they've been playing man2man their whole lives. But the difference is they probably weren't playing it very well. Teams don't play defense in high school or AAU. Were anyone on this team offered by schools who get after it on defense? Duke and Joe? Maybe but he wouldn't have left their bench. There are 359 teams who play m2m but most of them aren't very good.

IMO, guys on this team with good lateral quickness and instincts who could jump right in and play man in the ACC are Mintz, Torrence, Brown and Benny; maybe Copeland. JB plays zone as much to hide weak man defenders like Girard and Edwards and I single those 2 out because they are 60% of the offense so they have to play.

Where JB has failed defensively is mixing it up and not just zone/m2m. But pressing and full court trapping and some 1-3-1 stuff. If anyone remembers the last game or few games of last year he did this and it was very successful. So successful that I thought we'd see a lot of that mix this year and we haven't.

Jesse plays mtm on his national team. I think he could handle it in college, especially if they actually practiced it. Most of his issues on defense stem from running around trying to get out on shooters and then recovering back to his spot in the middle and then closing on the next guy.
BTW, SU centers, to a man, under JB have always had a penchant for foul trouble, regardless of the defense employed.

 

[Sherman20]

Perhaps the narrative that the 2-3 zone was so amazing during 2003 was the worst thing that could’ve happened?

Oklahoma looked like idiots against it, but beyond that we won with offense - especially in the final 4.

We went man in our two biggest regular season wins against Pitt and ND. If JB had been too stubborn to switch back then, we would’ve lost both those games by 15+ points.

Not even having a secondary defense as an option is a bad idea.

I think it was the 2013 Final Four run that really did it. We took down #1 Indiana because they had no idea how to beat it and then Marquette could barely score at all against it. The surprise 2018 Sweet 16 run and beating MSU also made JB even more wedded to the defense. He loved how these tourney teams that had zero experience playing against zone could not figure it out. I think the zone can still work but you have to be able to change it up and be able to play man to man.

 

[dollarbill44]

I think it was the 2013 Final Four run that really did it. We took down #1 Indiana because they had no idea how to beat it and then Marquette could barely score at all against it. The surprise 2018 Sweet 16 run and beating MSU also made JB even more wedded to the defense. He loved how these tourney teams that had zero experience playing against zone could not figure it out. I think the zone can still work but you have to be able to change it up and be able to play man to man.

That 2013 zone defense was insanely good during March. The amount of distance Triche and MCW covered was otherworldly. And throw in really athletic and long wings, fuhgeddaboutit.
I was at the elite 8 game just a few rows behind the SU bench and was amazed at the speed with which they went from side to side. Watching on TV didn't do it justice. Marquette (not to be confused with a Paul Westhead offense, mind you) couldn't do a thing.

 

[AZOrange]

We have way worse players. Not sure why there are more posts on zone than talent.

Talent gap is also on the coach. But there is a reason the zone stinks in the modern game. We refuse to accept that logic. Let’s say we could get the no. 1 prospect next year….you want to dump them in a zone? No thanks. We play a dumb defense and then try to recruit “zone” guys that no
one else wants.

 

[AZOrange]

These kids score - high school games are putting up crazy points, AAU ball is scoring. The League takes scorers. JB doesn't want to deal with what it takes to get those guys and keep those guys. Plenty of evidence there.

We're not losing out on high end kids because they aren't getting the chance to chase RJ Davis or whomever around. And JB is never going to get undersized b@lls to the wall defender first types to come here. That just isn't who he is.

JB got one of the best scorers in NYS history at Cuse right now. And he cannot play a lick of zone. He would be much better in M2M.

 

[AZOrange]

Jesse plays mtm on his national team. I think he could handle it in college, especially if they actually practiced it. Most of his issues on defense stem from running around trying to get out on shooters and then recovering back to his spot in the middle and then closing on the next guy.
BTW, SU centers, to a man, under JB have always had a penchant for foul trouble, regardless of the defense employed.

Because we have always taught them to be shotblockers

 

[007]

That's because he's out of position and not playing a man, but always moving to the ball. This has been a constant problem among SU centers going back 30 years. Jesse is actually one of the best centers at avoiding fouls per 100 possessions, which is much more accurate than per game.

Jesse Edwards - 5.4 personal fouls per 100 possessions
Bourama - 11.8
Chukwu - 8.9
Rak Christmas - 6.0
Tyler Lydon - 4.0
Marek - 4.7
Fab Melo - 6.8
BMK - 10.4

Tyler and Marek didn't play center full time. And of those players, Jesse is best at defensive rebounding percent and only 2nd to Fab Melo in block percentage by 0.5% = meaning he's getting into the mix against opposing offensive players and not just hanging around and not challenging.

The blocks, steals, and rebounds is evidence of his physical ability not evidence of him actually playing M2M. But apparently personal fouls are? In that case, Jesse is one of the best we've had there too.

In the ACC this season, among players with more than 15 total blocks (N=37 and the blocks are used to screen out guards and wings), Jesse is 2nd in rebounding %, first in block %, 4th in steal %, and 4th in PF/G (can't search by per 100 possessions) behind Bacot, Ormier, and Hinson. He is, without a doubt in my mind, the best defender we've had at SU since Etan.

Really good points in this post, especially the part about Jesse (and the 5s in general in JB's 2-3) being out of position and then attempting to close out on any players in the lane. It also leaves him prone to over the back fouls because no boxes out like they would have to in man.

The never ending debate about talent and the ability to play man is way overblown and misses what I consider to the more important factor. A factor that impacts this program at a systemic level. To be good at playing man, regardless of the level of competition or talent level, you have to devote a significant amount of practice time every day to it, and then add in advanced scouting time outside of practice to prep for the next offense and their sets. This isn't just a personal opinion. I've lived it. I've listened to other coaches present workshops and clinics. It's a universal truth in coaching. Ask any coach at just about any level. JB has stated the time element factor MANY times publically, including just a few weeks ago (SWC75 documented this discussion in one of his Coach's Show recaps).

JB has made the conscious decision that playing zone exclusively frees time to devote to other aspects of the game. This is true. It's his choice and his prerogative to run the program that way. The effectiveness of doing things that way in today's game is an entirely different debate. However, that monumental program decision has been deflected, rationalized, and portrayed as the player's lack of ability to play man.

 

[MSOrange]

Axe: Jim Boeheim is hopelessly devoted to the 2-3 zone

Brent Axe writes about how the downfall of Jim Boeheim's trademark 2-3 zone has led Syracuse basketball astray this season.

www.syracuse.com

 

[007]

JB got one of the best scorers in NYS history at Cuse right now. And he cannot play a lick of zone. He would be much better in M2M.

People also seem to forget that the player you are talking about was one of the guys who played M2M in the triangle and 2 that JB used against Duke in the ACCT. He held his own there. That was an awesome coaching move by JB.

 

[phil77]

Can these players play man effectively? Who knows
Can these players play zone effectively? Not in a million years

The biggest questions I have about the zone are the following:

-Can the zone still be a defense you can use 100% of the time in 100% of the games? I doubt it with rosters turnover it makes it impossible to build a defense where everyone has to work together.

-Can the zone still be effective in the modern day basketball game? It doesn't look like it. Teams are hunting threes now. What was a bad shot is now a good shot. The zone use to force team to take 3s because they were bad shots in the modern basketball landscape those are now good shots.

-Can JB still effectively coach the zone? What kind of time and energy is he putting into actually teaching the zone. Everyone says he is really hands off in practice and lets his assistants run things then the question is our the assistants terrible coaches that they can teach the zone and can't team a fluid offense?

 

[two3zone]

It's not a convincing argument, OPA.

Let me ask your opinion on this... Why has SU had 20+ years of players not able to effectively play man D?

Keep in mind, not only have we recruited players who predominantly played man in high school, but we also have imported a slew of excellent transfers who played man at their prior college.

I'm sure a man D would be lousy this season. I know our zone is lousy this season. And I agree that the sum of our current talent is not up to snuff.

But why are we "a zone team", not just this year, but every year? And is it because we've never had players capable of playing any other defense?

My question would be, what about our recruiting misses that play man now, did they learn super quick or something?

 

[Bayside44]

Talent gap is also on the coach. But there is a reason the zone stinks in the modern game. We refuse to accept that logic. Let’s say we could get the no. 1 prospect next year….you want to dump them in a zone? No thanks. We play a dumb defense and then try to recruit “zone” guys that no
one else wants.

Huh? I would assume the #1 prospect would be a dominant scorer. And that person would get the ball over and over and over here.

 

[Madbiker]

The strength of a good 2-3 zone defense is that it is supposed to make it hard to get the ball into the paint for easy shots and lay ups and forces teams to take more jump shots from farther out on the perimeter which are lower percentage shots. But with today's game teams have 3-4 good 3 point shooters on the court and against the zone they are getting very open and makeable shots at a good percentage. It has a place as a change of pace defense for certain situations but you cannot thrive playing it 100% of the time. We have to adapt.

 

[djcon57]

The strength of a good 2-3 zone defense is that it is supposed to make it hard to get the ball into the paint for easy shots and lay ups and forces teams to take more jump shots from farther out on the perimeter which are lower percentage shots. But with today's game teams have 3-4 good 3 point shooters on the court and against the zone they are getting very open and makeable shots at a good percentage. It has a place as a change of pace defense for certain situations but you cannot thrive playing it 100% of the time. We have to adapt.

You can explain this until you are blue in the face. It won't matter.

Zone works vs bad shooting teams. 14-15, KenPom #172, BC, for example. Great!

 

[Cusefan0307]

People also seem to forget that the player you are talking about was one of the guys who played M2M in the triangle and 2 that JB used against Duke in the ACCT. He held his own there. That was an awesome coaching move by JB.

Girard would be better in man. I don’t think he would be all world, but he could be serviceable there. A lot of his issues are the same issues when we had Gillon up top. His team got cooked in the zone too. It’s easy to shoot over a 5’11 person if you’re 6’5 and that guy has to cover a large area.

 

[Fly Rodder]

The strength of a good 2-3 zone defense is that it is supposed to make it hard to get the ball into the paint for easy shots and lay ups and forces teams to take more jump shots from farther out on the perimeter which are lower percentage shots. But with today's game teams have 3-4 good 3 point shooters on the court and against the zone they are getting very open and makeable shots at a good percentage. It has a place as a change of pace defense for certain situations but you cannot thrive playing it 100% of the time. We have to adapt.

It certainly looks like teams are employing a consistent strategy against SU pass it around, move the defense around, and take an open three.

There are outliers and then there are outliers (and to be clear, the teams in that lower quadrant aren't particularly good, though some decent teams like Marquette and Baylor are in there, so are Georgetown, Louisville, St. John's and Nova).

ETA: These are just P6 teams

 

[OttoinGrotto]

It certainly looks like teams are employing a consistent strategy against SU pass it around, move the defense around, and take an open three.

There are outliers and then there are outliers (and to be clear, the teams in that lower quadrant aren't particularly good, though some decent teams like Marquette and Baylor are in there, so are Georgetown, Louisville, St. John's and Nova).
View attachment 225469

Fly Rodder is cooking, y'all.

 

[Scooch]

We have way worse players. Not sure why there are more posts on zone than talent.

Hey man, I've been incessantly yapping about our woeful recruiting and talent deficiencies all year!

Seriously, some of it is that JB feeds the zone debate with his inane comments. It's catnip.

And some of it is that not everyone wants to create player-specific megathreads to crap all over them. I sure don't.

Ultimately though, the biggest issue with the program is that 10 years ago this week we rolled out a starting five of Fair, Triche, Carter-Williams, Christmas and Southerland. With Coleman, Grant, Cooney and Keita coming off the bench.

That team might beat this year's by 40.

 

[721Comstock]

Fly Rodder is cooking, y'all.

Yup. That chart is incredibly damning of the current iteration of the 2-3 and the players we have playing it.

It would be one thing to be in the bottom quadrant - but we are sooooo far below the bottom of the bottom it is ridiculous!!!

Teams are getting an assist on a (wiiiiiiide open) 3 well over 72% of the time, and hitting them at higher than 46% rate.

The average team allows about 37% on 3's and they are assisted at a 52% rate.

Our vaunted 2-3 zone D is basically allowing our opponents to play pop-a-shot against us, this entire season.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Hey man, I've been incessantly yapping about our woeful recruiting and talent deficiencies all year!

Seriously, some of it is that JB feeds the zone debate with his inane comments. It's catnip.

And some of it is that not everyone wants to create player-specific megathreads to crap all over them. I sure don't.

Ultimately thought, the biggest issue with the program is that 10 years ago this week we rolled out a starting five of Fair, Triche, Carter-Williams, Christmas and Southerland. With Coleman, Grant, Cooney and Keita coming off the bench.

That team might beat this year's by 40.

Looking at KP that team would be favored by 15 or 16 on a neutral court over this one.

 

[djcon57]

It certainly looks like teams are employing a consistent strategy against SU pass it around, move the defense around, and take an open three.

There are outliers and then there are outliers (and to be clear, the teams in that lower quadrant aren't particularly good, though some decent teams like Marquette and Baylor are in there, so are Georgetown, Louisville, St. John's and Nova).

ETA: These are just P6 teams

JB "fought back" against this in his presser (or his radio show, can't 100% remember) with of course they get assists, you pass against the zone.

Let me ask every Syracuse fan this.

Would you rather Chris Bell get the ball 1-1 and have to create space to get his shot off OR just catch and shoot?

Once you answer that, you can understand what every other coach sees when they see the zone.

 

[Nicknack]

Adapt or die. Just ask Kodak

They're not dead, but I get your point. My first job after graduating cuse was in sales with kodak.

 

[CuseCPT]

Fly Rodder is cooking, y'all.

Legit most underrated poster in Syracusefan history. I wish there was a Fly Rodder megathread with his greatest hits.