For those who are burying Cooney thinking

[dfnj]

We're staring at our worst sg situation in the past decade.

Patterson and Ben-Uh-Jay will probably be at least 50% to 75% as good as Triche this year. This just means CJ and Grant will have to step it up to make up for Triche and Southerland's production (which may not be that hard to do!). Ennis will probably be comparable to MCW. Maybe Ennis will have a slightly higher output on offense. Roberson is an unknown. And maybe Coleman and Xmas will finally have an offensive game. This year's team will score but maybe not in the same style as last year's team.

I think "worst sg situation in the past decade" is too strong. I think we will have some freshmen/sophomore growing pains. But I think by March the Orange will be just as good as last years team on offense. Defense, however, who knows until we see it!

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Rautins didn't stink as a sophomore--he was the sixth man, played a ton, and was quite effective in his first year garnering playing time.

Also, I believe sometime during his sophomore season is when he stole Jamband's girlfriend.

 

[sutomcat]

Patterson and Ben-Uh-Jay will probably be at least 50% to 75% as good as Triche this year. This just means CJ and Grant will have to step it up to make up for Triche and Southerland's production (which may not be that hard to do!). Ennis will probably be comparable to MCW. Maybe Ennis will have a slightly higher output on offense. Roberson is an unknown. And maybe Coleman and Xmas will finally have an offensive game. This year's team will score but maybe not in the same style as last year's team.

I think "worst sg situation in the past decade" is too strong. I think we will have some freshmen/sophomore growing pains. But I think by March the Orange will be just as good as last years team on offense. Defense, however, who knows until we see it!

MCW averaged 11.9 ppg, 7.3 assists per game, 4.9 rebounds per game and 2.8 steals per game. He finished 5th in the country in assists per game and 4th in steals per game (2nd in both categories if you only consider teams from major conferences). Other that FG and 3 pt shooting percentage, he was outstanding.

If Ennis comes anywhere close to MCW's numbers as a true frosh (remember MCW was a soph), I would be ecstatic. I think he might have a little better FG shooting percentage, doubt he will come close to MCW's ppg, apg or rpg.

Hoping for 8 ppg, 5 apg, 3 rpg and 1.5 spg, shooting say 45% from the field. That would make me darned happy.

Don't really know what to expect from BenOJ but put me in the camp that thinks TC will get a lot of playing time and do well with it. I think a lot of people underrate defense when it come to determining playing time...TC was good on defense last year and he will surely be our best zone defender this season. It takes time to learn to play the zone and it is a lot easier in your third season in the system than your first.

I am going to Ottawa to see the team play, will hopefully have a better feel for how playing time might be divvied up this season after that. Either BJ and Boss could end up as a major factors if BenOJ or TC struggle. Or TE as well, God forbid...

 

[moqui]

But the fact that he had a year off to work on his game, and still was a little underwhelming last year concerns me a little. No reason to write him off.

I never saw him play in HS (and I completely discount all highlight clips), but after his recruitment, I had an extended conversation with Rob Harrington from PrepStars. He told me that, on the AAU circuit, Cooney was unable to defend and had trouble putting the ball on the floor against other high D1 prospects. Against the equivalent talent level that he would face at Syracuse, he looked like he was going to be a one dimensional shooter.

But, after one redshirt year working in the system with SU coaching, that all changed. He was good to very good in every aspect of the game except shooting. To me, that indicates that he did not, in fact, underachieve; rather, he made great progress and was able to translate that into actual game action. He's a solid rotation player as is . . . if he gets his shooting percentage up to ~35%, he's the clear starter . . . if he gets it up to where we all thought it would be - 39% or over - he could be Rautins 2.0. Given the progress that he has made already, I am very hopeful.

 

[iommi]

Also, I believe sometime during his sophomore season is when he stole Jamband's girlfriend.

I'd love to see jamband and bjorn go one on one at the local Y. Maybe we could have a steel cage installed too for this clash of the titans...

 

[iommi]

I like tomcat's nickname for Gbenije... BenOJ. It'd be really great if OJ Simpson weren't so infamous.

 

[iommi]

I think the issue with Cooney is he may have a limited ceiling. I think Silent G has greater upside.:noidea:

 

[Sgt Cuse]

Patterson and Ben-Uh-Jay will probably be at least 50% to 75% as good as Triche this year. This just means CJ and Grant will have to step it up to make up for Triche and Southerland's production (which may not be that hard to do!). Ennis will probably be comparable to MCW. Maybe Ennis will have a slightly higher output on offense. Roberson is an unknown. And maybe Coleman and Xmas will finally have an offensive game. This year's team will score but maybe not in the same style as last year's team.

I think "worst sg situation in the past decade" is too strong. I think we will have some freshmen/sophomore growing pains. But I think by March the Orange will be just as good as last years team on offense. Defense, however, who knows until we see it!

Then who would you take our projected sg starter over - Brandon, Andy, Devendorf, or GMac? Please.

No, stating that we are facing our worst projected starter at sg in the past decade is not too strong. I probably should have extended the time frame.

 

[dfnj]

BenOJ

MCW averaged 11.9 ppg, 7.3 assists per game, 4.9 rebounds per game and 2.8 steals per game

sutomcat, good analysis. I like "BenOJ" instead of what I was using. Very good!

I was not that big of fan of MCW. He made a lot of mistakes. He was not as clutch as GMac. We will see how good he does in the NBA.

 

[OttoMets]

Then who would you take our projected sg starter over - Brandon, Andy, Devendorf, or GMac? Please.

No, stating that we are facing our worst projected starter at sg in the past decade is not too strong. I probably should have extended the time frame.

This could bring down a firestorm from a loud minority, but I'd roll the dice with Cooney or Gbinije over Triche. There are no guarantees, but it's not a stretch to thing that the starter could achieve better than 42% shooting while picking up his share of the scoring burden (reduced) with a better assist-to-turnover ratio and similarly-strong defense.

Rautins was very good for a year and valuable for two more, but, again, either of these unproven guys could well come close to his production.

I'd take them over Devendorf, too, though that's more because I value both defense, chemistry, and ball-handling.

And McNamara was a pretty valuable shooting guard for all thirty or so games he was able to start at that position. Doubt either of these kids will match his 38.5% from 3 or whatever he shot in '04.

Point is, we've clearly lost a lot of our production. Last year's backcourt was offensively challenged, though, especially off the ball. It's not crazy to thing that our pu pu platter of Cooney/Gbinije/Patterson can't at least match what we got from the 2 last season.

 

[dfnj]

Then who would you take our projected sg starter over - Brandon, Andy, Devendorf, or GMac? Please. No, stating that we are facing our worst projected starter at sg in the past decade is not too strong. I probably should have extended the time frame.

GMac is of course my favorite from that list. GMac was pretty amazing clutch shooter. Devendorf had one good offensive move to the left. Devendorf was never a favorite of mine. It took years before Brandon and Andy were able to contribute in meaningful games. Stacking the stats in the games against the cream-puffs is misleading.

It's hard to predict what is going to happen this year. My thinking is all the SGs will collectively equal about what we had last season. As a group, the SG offense will be about the same as what we had last year in my humble opinion.

 

[dfnj]

Point is, we've clearly lost a lot of our production. Last year's backcourt was offensively challenged, though, especially off the ball. It's not crazy to thing that our pu pu platter of Cooney/Gbinije/Patterson can't at least match what we got from the 2 last season.

That is kind of what I am thinking. One the guys, BenOJ or Paterson may surprise us. It is very difficult to really get behind Cooney after last season. I will try to remain open minded.

 

[OttoMets]

GMac is of course my favorite from that list. GMac was pretty amazing clutch shooter. Devendorf had one good offensive move to the left. Devendorf was never a favorite of mine. It took years before Brandon and Andy were able to contribute in meaningful games. Stacking the stats in the games against the cream-puffs is misleading.

It's hard to predict what is going to happen this year. My thinking is all the SGs will collectively equal about what we had last season. As a group, the SG offense will be about the same as what we had last year in my humble opinion.

Agree with the main point; our production from the 2 was very poor last season and it's very unlikely that our committee of shooting guards will be worse.

One quibble: it's not that Triche took too long to contribute in meaningful games (West Virginia in 2010, et al.), it's that he never demonstrated an ability to contribute consistently at a high level. Too many excellent 23-point games to beat good teams followed by a two week stretch of 3-13s with half a dozen freshman turnovers.

 

[dfnj]

Check out this cool web page on Orange recruiting. I love the chart towards the bottom:

http://www.verbalcommits.com/schools/syracuse

 

[OttoMets]

That is kind of what I am thinking. One the guys, BenOJ or Paterson may surprise us. It is very difficult to really get behind Cooney after last season. I will try to remain open minded.

For what it's worth, I'm not expecting anything from Patterson right off the bat. But the other two are going to be able to do some good things.

 

[moqui]

Then who would you take our projected sg starter over - Brandon, Andy, Devendorf, or GMac? Please.

No, stating that we are facing our worst projected starter at sg in the past decade is not too strong. I probably should have extended the time frame.

well, hell - for that matter, for all we know we might be looking at our worst starting point guard since Josh Wright (Flynn/Rautins/Jardine/MCW)

 

[BostonOrange]

I never saw him play in HS (and I completely discount all highlight clips), but after his recruitment, I had an extended conversation with Rob Harrington from PrepStars. He told me that, on the AAU circuit, Cooney was unable to defend and had trouble putting the ball on the floor against other high D1 prospects. Against the equivalent talent level that he would face at Syracuse, he looked like he was going to be a one dimensional shooter.

But, after one redshirt year working in the system with SU coaching, that all changed. He was good to very good in every aspect of the game except shooting. To me, that indicates that he did not, in fact, underachieve; rather, he made great progress and was able to translate that into actual game action. He's a solid rotation player as is . . . if he gets his shooting percentage up to ~35%, he's the clear starter . . . if he gets it up to where we all thought it would be - 39% or over - he could be Rautins 2.0. Given the progress that he has made already, I am very hopeful.

"He was good to very good in every aspect of the game except shooting'". I think that assessment is a little bit optimistic. On offense all he was asked to do is shoot, so I'm not sure how to really assess the rest of his game. He wasn't asked to create for others. He had little to no ballhandling responsibilities. I thought he was good on D, and I don't mean to discount that, but I find it hard to objectively say he was good at anything on the offensive end. Also, given what we needed him to do last year, saying that he was good at everything except shooting is kind of like saying 'Tom Brady was great against the Ravens in everything except passing'.

That said...it is definitely very difficult for a 'shooter' to perform when he is getting little to no minutes. And another poster said that he still had all his confidence, which is good because if he lost that he is toast. My expectations for him are pretty low but...really...who cares what I think as long as he thinks he can do it.

 

[BostonOrange]

This could bring down a firestorm from a loud minority, but I'd roll the dice with Cooney or Gbinije over Triche. There are no guarantees, but it's not a stretch to thing that the starter could achieve better than 42% shooting while picking up his share of the scoring burden (reduced) with a better assist-to-turnover ratio and similarly-strong defense.

Rautins was very good for a year and valuable for two more, but, again, either of these unproven guys could well come close to his production.

I'd take them over Devendorf, too, though that's more because I value both defense, chemistry, and ball-handling.

And McNamara was a pretty valuable shooting guard for all thirty or so games he was able to start at that position. Doubt either of these kids will match his 38.5% from 3 or whatever he shot in '04.

Point is, we've clearly lost a lot of our production. Last year's backcourt was offensively challenged, though, especially off the ball. It's not crazy to thing that our pu pu platter of Cooney/Gbinije/Patterson can't at least match what we got from the 2 last season.

Not sure if this is going to make any sense but I think that even though there is a very good chance,maybe a near certainty, that last years Triche is a better player than whoever starts at SG this year, I'm still ready to see someone else in that spot. With BT you knew what you were going to get - an excellent defender, an excellent 2nd ballhandler, and a very erratic offensive player. I'm ready to see someone else.

 

[OttoMets]

Not sure if this is going to make any sense but I think that even though there is a very good chance,maybe a near certainty, that last years Triche is a better player than whoever starts at SG this year, I'm still ready to see someone else in that spot. With BT you knew what you were going to get - an excellent defender, an excellent 2nd ballhandler, and a very erratic offensive player. I'm ready to see someone else.

I agree. It might be foolish to wish away someone who averaged in the 8-14 range, rebounded well, was a good defender, and was a standup program guy.

But he'd gotten a chance to establish a ceiling over four years and that ceiling was a little lower than we've grown accustomed to at that position. Our offense grew borderline unwatchable in the last two seasons; not having consistent scoring and efficient shooting from our shooting guard was a big contributor (not having any offensive post presence was the main culprit).

Syracuse's averages from the two-spot since the turn of the century: 42.9%/32.1%; 1.41 assist-to-turnover; 11 points per game. The last three seasons have dragged the shooting percentage down sharply; only Dion in 2013 managed to shoot better from the field. Our two shooting guards shot 41.6%/28.8% and 32.2%/26.7% last season; that's bad.

Let's see what a new guy can do.

 

[Sgt Cuse]

I agree. It might be foolish to wish away someone who averaged in the 8-14 range, rebounded well, was a good defender, and was a standup program guy.

But he'd gotten a chance to establish a ceiling over four years and that ceiling was a little lower than we've grown accustomed to at that position. Our offense grew borderline unwatchable in the last two seasons; not having consistent scoring and efficient shooting from our shooting guard was a big contributor (not having any offensive post presence was the main culprit).

Syracuse's averages from the two-spot since the turn of the century: 42.9%/32.1%; 1.41 assist-to-turnover; 11 points per game. The last three seasons have dragged the shooting percentage down sharply; only Dion in 2013 managed to shoot better from the field. Our two shooting guards shot 41.6%/28.8% and 32.2%/26.7% last season; that's bad.

Let's see what a new guy can do.

You'd have a point if that new guy were say - Whitehead (or like the pg situation with Ennis). But the new guy we are referring to isn't so new, it's Cooney. And his history is much worse than any BT came in with.
So if the new guy you are wishing BT away for is Cooney, then yeah you're nuts.

A lot of people, myself included, hope Cooney gets beat out, mainly because we can't envision enough improvement out of Cooney to be anything but a downgrade from BT. But MG was just shut out by B level Euro townies, so that's not a good sign.

 

[OttoMets]

You'd have a point if that new guy were say - Whitehead (or like the pg situation with Ennis). But the new guy we are referring to isn't so new, it's Cooney. And his history is much worse than any BT came in with.
So if the new guy you are wishing BT away for is Cooney, then yeah you're nuts.

A lot of people, myself included, hope Cooney gets beat out, mainly because we can't envision enough improvement out of Cooney to be anything but a downgrade from BT. But MG was just shut out by B level Euro townies, so that's not a good sign.

What we know: Brandon Triche was not a good shooter.
Triche was a good defender.
Triche was often careless with the ball.
Triche was a decent penetrator and finisher.

Cooney is a good defender.
Cooney is a decent penetrator.
Cooney has been careful with the ball.
Cooney shot very poorly this season.
Cooney did not finish particularly well this season.

Assumptions: Cooney is a good shooter. He got his game experience in and now he's going to see the ball start to drop. (His mechanics are good.)
Cooney will develop into a decent finisher. He's athletic enough to elevate, he's got wide shoulders, he can get to the rim.

After four years, we knew Triche was not going to become a 45% shooter, a 38% three-point shooter, a careful ball-handler, or a 16-point-per-game scorer. Those were not things he could do at the college level. We don't yet know that Cooney or Gbinije can't do any of those things (though I don't think this year's team is looking for that scoring total from either guard spot). Each is a talented player and gives reason to be excited for this year.

Cooney struggled in a very visible and important aspect of the game this year, but you'd be rash to condemn him based on 400 minutes of basketball (dished out in inconsistent increments, no less). And it's even crazier to draw any conclusions about Gbinije based on some international summertime competition.

[EDIT: also, I'm more confident in Cooney that I am in Ennis - one guy has demonstrated that he can hold his own against Big East players; the other has never had that opportunity. And I still think it's bizarre for a Syracuse fan to want one guy to get "beat out" for a starting job. May the best man win.]

 

[syr02esq]

Define "bust." Because I'd say that assessment is bunk. In every respect but one he was better than expected, across the board, in terms of what he delivered on the court.

It just so happened that that one aspect was the thing that most people focus upon--shooting.

It certainly isn't unprecedented for frosh to struggle shooting the ball, only to right the ship as they gain experience. Calling him a bust is absurd at this stage of his career.

I define "bust" as the manner in which one said Trevor Cooney played in the 2012-2013 season. Cooney is a 2 guard. His primary contribution on the team is to shoot the ball. And for that role, he failed miserably. I could care less if he grabbed a rebound, made a successful pass or stole the ball. We didn't recruit him to be a defender or a rebounder.

 

[Sgt Cuse]

What we know: Brandon Triche was not a good shooter.
Triche was a good defender.
Triche was often careless with the ball.
Triche was a decent penetrator and finisher.

Cooney is a good defender.
Cooney is a decent penetrator.
Cooney has been careful with the ball.
Cooney shot very poorly this season.
Cooney did not finish particularly well this season.

Assumptions: Cooney is a good shooter. He got his game experience in and now he's going to see the ball start to drop. (His mechanics are good.)
Cooney will develop into a decent finisher. He's athletic enough to elevate, he's got wide shoulders, he can get to the rim.

After four years, we knew Triche was not going to become a 45% shooter, a 38% three-point shooter, a careful ball-handler, or a 16-point-per-game scorer. Those were not things he could do at the college level. We don't yet know that Cooney or Gbinije can't do any of those things (though I don't think this year's team is looking for that scoring total from either guard spot). Each is a talented player and gives reason to be excited for this year.

Cooney struggled in a very visible and important aspect of the game this year, but you'd be rash to condemn him based on 400 minutes of basketball (dished out in inconsistent increments, no less). And it's even crazier to draw any conclusions about Gbinije based on some international summertime competition.

[EDIT: also, I'm more confident in Cooney that I am in Ennis - one guy has demonstrated that he can hold his own against Big East players; the other has never had that opportunity. And I still think it's bizarre for a Syracuse fan to want one guy to get "beat out" for a starting job. May the best man win.]

You seem to try and paint a picture that Cooney and BT were close. They weren't. Cooney a decent penetrator? Based on what - his 3 trips into the lane. No, it's ridiculous to compare the two because they were not in the same league.

And isn't it really the same level of craziness to draw conclusions based on international games as it is to base conclusions on one Midnight Madness game a year ago. We have very little to go on with MG so each piece of info factors in heavily.

You're more confident in Cooney than Ennis? What stellar Big East game did Cooney ever have?

I have been hoping for someone to beat out Cooney because I see Cooney with a very limited ceiling as a sophomore. I don't think he can get to where Rautins was as a soph, and I didn't think Rautins was good as a soph.

 

[dfnj]

For what it's worth, I'm not expecting anything from Patterson right off the bat. But the other two are going to be able to do some good things.

I like Patterson's swagger. He reminds me of Dion.

 

[dfnj]

But MG was just shut out by B level Euro townies, so that's not a good sign.

Yeah, what the heck was that about! Hopefully too much of that Belgium beer with the high alcohol content. Or jet-lag.

 

[AlaskaSU]

so far, Silent G's European experience is disheartening. Maybe he can turn it around. Maybe BJ will be able to pick up the slack. If not, shooting guard might be our weakness.