For those who are burying Cooney thinking

[Gabjon]

We play ZONE! Is Cooney good in the zone...yes! But do you think Buss won't be able to play the zone? He has a 6'-11" wingspan which is the same length as Kris Jo! Silent G is 6'-7" and has been in the system a year. BJ is 6'-8" and Ennis is going to play heavy minutes! We had the best defense in school history last year and Cooney only played 5mins a game. Zone is a system and JB has mastered it! We haven't had a bad zone team since 08-09 and with 5 returning frontline players the zone will be fine!

It's about the offense! Our offense kept us from winning a NC last year and our guards need to score the ball! I am not saying Cooney won't improve offensively, I'm saying he has to by a lot. I hope he does but I have not heard of him playing any tournaments this summer. He needs to play games and hopefully he is everyday!

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[OttoMets]

We play ZONE! Is Cooney good in the zone...yes! But do you think Buss won't be able to play the zone? He has a 6'-11" wingspan which is the same length as Kris Jo! Silent G is 6'-7" and has been in the system a year. BJ is 6'-8" and Ennis is going to play heavy minutes! We had the best defense in school history last year and Cooney only played 5mins a game. Zone is a system and JB has mastered it! We haven't had a bad zone team since 08-09 and with 5 returning frontline players the zone will be fine!

It's about the offense! Our offense kept us from winning a NC last year and our guards need to score the ball! I am not saying Cooney won't improve offensively, I'm saying he has to by a lot. I hope he does but I have not heard of him playing any tournaments this summer. He needs to play games and hopefully he is everyday!

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If long arms were dispositive, then Sean Williams would have been the best zone defender in Syracuse history.

You know the game and you know that there's a lot more to defense than arm length (and that freshmen have difficulty learning and executing movement and responsibility). Patterson will have every chance to be great, but he's at a disadvantage compared to the other two right now.

 

[Gabjon]

If long arms were dispositive, then Sean Williams would have been the best zone defender in Syracuse history.

You know the game and you know that there's a lot more to defense than arm length (and that freshmen have difficulty learning and executing movement and responsibility). Patterson will have every chance to be great, but he's at a disadvantage compared to the other two right now.

Long arms at center is not as important as long arms at guard. Williams couldn't play and couldn't bang down low which is a must at center but a non-issue at guard. Long arms at the top of the zone is a huge advantage! But my larger point is the zone will be good no matter who is out there it's about the offense!

 

[OttoMets]

Long arms at center is not as important as long arms at guard. Williams couldn't play and couldn't bang down low which is a must at center but a non-issue at guard. Long arms at the top of the zone is a huge advantage! But my larger point is the zone will be good no matter who is out there it's about the offense!

Just breaking your balls a little.

No doubt that long arms are an advantage, but when you've got a guy who's played Syracuse zone, a guy who's played some college man, and a high school kid who's got longer arms, the first two guys are usually going to beat him out. In time, Patterson might have an advantage because of his measurements. Not yet, though.

 

[Gabjon]

Just breaking your balls a little.

No doubt that long arms are an advantage, but when you've got a guy who's played Syracuse zone, a guy who's played some college man, and a high school kid who's got longer arms, the first two guys are usually going to beat him out. In time, Patterson might have an advantage because of his measurements. Not yet, though.

The zone is not rocket science! There have 10 practices this summer plus a few weeks in October. The zone is hard for other coaches to teach because they don't know that the heck they are doing. JB and the staff has it down to a science. Cooney needs to prove that he is the best in game shooter on the team IMO.

 

[jordoo]

This arguement has been killed over the off season so I haven't read the thread.

I think Cooney will get his stroke together at some point and be a very big contributer foe SU at some point. Will it be this year? I have no idea, but he plays pretty good defense, hustles and if he becomes a 3pt threat he has enough other offensive skills to make teams pay for coming out at him.

That being said for those who feel he has locked up the starting 2g spot or its his to loose do you really think that MikeG wouldn't have gotten a look there last year if he was eligible? In BE play and beyond Cooney was basically just buying mrest time for MCW and Brandon in the first half of games and he had no competition other than himself.

 

[realorange]

The zone is not rocket science! There have 10 practices this summer plus a few weeks in October. The zone is hard for other coaches to teach because they don't know that the heck they are doing. JB and the staff has it down to a science. Cooney needs to prove that he is the best in game shooter on the team IMO.

I guess there were other reasons that Coleman last year and Christmas the year before sat on the bench so much. So much for rocket science. The SU zone is complicated by the things that other posters have already mentioned. Patterson will be fortunate to see 2-3 minutes per game, if that, when the tough part of the season starts.

 

[Gabjon]

I guess there were other reasons that Coleman last year and Christmas the year before sat on the bench so much. So much for rocket science. The SU zone is complicated by the things that other posters have already mentioned. Patterson will be fortunate to see 2-3 minutes per game, if that, when the tough part of the season starts.

The zone not complicated, but center is by far the hardest position because they make the calls, have to guard the post and the rim and rebound. I am not a Patterson fan compared to the other incoming guys but the "he is great in the zone so he will play argument" is nonsense for all none centers. Cooney needs to shoot the ball better I hope he does because defense alone will not get him PT IMO.

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[jordoo]

I guess there were other reasons that Coleman last year and Christmas the year before sat on the bench so much. So much for rocket science. The SU zone is complicated by the things that other posters have already mentioned. Patterson will be fortunate to see 2-3 minutes per game, if that, when the tough part of the season starts.

Center no doubt is the hardest position to learn in JB's zone. The guys who have played it the best IMO over the years have either been very good communicators out of that spot, great shot blockers/challengers, great position/closeout lane defenders or some combination of the three. This is why freshman so often struggle in on defense at center for us. The forwards struggle a bit less and the guards struggle the least. I think the reason is that the guards get to react to the ball the most and have the wings and center to fall back on. They do need to watch for moving screens and hinder the easy entrance pass to the FT line but its much easier to catch onto than center of wing in JB's defense. Buss could play IMO because we need a backup PG which is a roll he could fill and even with Conney and MikeG nothing says he couldn't become the backup as a combo guard which JB loves.

 

[orangefan13]

I wouldn't sleep on BJ and/or Ron playing some big mintutes for a fresh if they find the pullup off the bounce.
Cooney is a spot up shooter and not sure on Gbinije yet but I am not seeing the isolation material or the 3 point shot in four estonia games.

I still like the thought of Cooney playing backup pg and taking his spot up 3's with iq instead of when he thinks he has alittle space to not be blocked. Its a walk process he has 3 more years to get to shoot at will. SG's you want shoot at will players.

 

[Gabjon]

Center no doubt is the hardest position to learn in JB's zone. The guys who have played it the best IMO over the years have either been very good communicators out of that spot, great shot blockers/challengers, great position/closeout lane defenders or some combination of the three. This is why freshman so often struggle in on defense at center for us. The forwards struggle a bit less and the guards struggle the least. I think the reason is that the guards get to react to the ball the most and have the wings and center to fall back on. They do need to watch for moving screens and hinder the easy entrance pass to the FT line but its much easier to catch onto than center of wing in JB's defense. Buss could play IMO because we need a backup PG which is a roll he could fill and even with Conney and MikeG nothing says he couldn't become the backup as a combo guard which JB loves.

Also rebounding out of the zone is very challenging and it falls almost exclusively on the centers and forwards. That is another benefit of taller guards in the zone they often get a free run at the glass while the big boys are banging down low.

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[IthacaMatt]

Define "bust." Because I'd say that assessment is bunk. In every respect but one he was better than expected, across the board, in terms of what he delivered on the court.

It just so happened that that one aspect was the thing that most people focus upon--shooting.

It certainly isn't unprecedented for frosh to struggle shooting the ball, only to right the ship as they gain experience. Calling him a bust is absurd at this stage of his career.

When does it ever makes sense to call a freshman a bust? I agree, that was kind of a ridiculous post. It's not like the kid came in as a McDonald's All-American and our season was riding on him. He was a good recruit, but not an expected instant star, or a key player where our season depended on him playing at a certain level and he failed to deliver.

 

[moqui]

Hmmm. Sounds like what was expected from TC.

name just one poster - let alone a majority - who expected Cooney to come in and be an instant impact starter

 

[moqui]

Did Cooney make a concious decision to disregard Mike Waters advice

let's hope so . . . nobody on the team should be taking summer workout/playing schedule advice from Mike Waters.

 

[alphaorange]

We play ZONE! Is Cooney good in the zone...yes! But do you think Buss won't be able to play the zone? He has a 6'-11" wingspan which is the same length as Kris Jo! Silent G is 6'-7" and has been in the system a year. BJ is 6'-8" and Ennis is going to play heavy minutes! We had the best defense in school history last year and Cooney only played 5mins a game. Zone is a system and JB has mastered it! We haven't had a bad zone team since 08-09 and with 5 returning frontline players the zone will be fine!

It's about the offense! Our offense kept us from winning a NC last year and our guards need to score the ball! I am not saying Cooney won't improve offensively, I'm saying he has to by a lot. I hope he does but I have not heard of him playing any tournaments this summer. He needs to play games and hopefully he is everyday!

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He has to improve but a single aspect of his offense to be a difference maker. The shots have to fall. You are preaching like the kid was simply over matched and that is untrue. He took great shots (which is a huge key) but didn't convert. This year, he will...

 

[alphaorange]

The zone not complicated, but center is by far the hardest position because they make the calls, have to guard the post and the rim and rebound. I am not a Patterson fan compared to the other incoming guys but the "he is great in the zone so he will play argument" is nonsense for all none centers. Cooney needs to shoot the ball better I hope he does because defense alone will not get him PT IMO.

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SU's zone is indeed VERY complicated. Every player has to know the subtle intricacies of when and where to rotate, double, and recover. You are doing JB and the players a huge injustice when you basically say that it is simple. A basic 2-3? Yes. SU's 2-3 with man principles? Not simple.

 

[alphaorange]

Also rebounding out of the zone is very challenging and it falls almost exclusively on the centers and forwards. That is another benefit of taller guards in the zone they often get a free run at the glass while the big boys are banging down low.

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Also not true. Generally, for any team to rebound well in a zone, the entire team has to hit the boards, not just the bigs. If you have a free run at the glass, size doesn't mean that much.

 

[Gabjon]

Also not true. Generally, for any team to rebound well in a zone, the entire team has to hit the boards, not just the bigs. If you have a free run at the glass, size doesn't mean that much.

Our guard like to leak out on the break and free run at the rim just means there is nobody blocking you out! You still has to jump or out jump someone! Rebounds rarely hit the ground!

 

[Gabjon]

SU's zone is indeed VERY complicated. Every player has to know the subtle intricacies of when and where to rotate, double, and recover. You are doing JB and the players a huge injustice when you basically say that it is simple. A basic 2-3? Yes. SU's 2-3 with man principles? Not simple.

Never used the words simple or basic...I said it is not rocket science and JB is a master of teaching it!

 

[Gabjon]

He has to improve but a single aspect of his offense to be a difference maker. The shots have to fall. You are preaching like the kid was simply over matched and that is untrue. He took great shots (which is a huge key) but didn't convert. This year, he will...

Stop reading into my post! I never said or implied he was over matched!!!

 

[DNABB5]

If long arms were dispositive, then Sean Williams would have been the best zone defender in Syracuse history.

I am so sorry but I need to post this right now.

 

[realorange]

name just one poster - let alone a majority - who expected Cooney to come in and be an instant impact starter

I'm too lazy to dig into the archives, but there was more than one who, after hearing practice reports from GMac and others, expected TC to light it up from 3pt range.
My bad for missing the starter designation. Certainly there were no expectations for that.

 

[anomander]

Probably not a popular opinion but I feel Cooney will start to get phased out as his career goes on. His shooting just wasn't an in game problem. He just seems way to 1 dimensional, which is surprising because he looked like he could drive in HS. And the statement about him being this great defender is getting blown out of proportion . he has active hands, but that's about it. He had a real hard time staying in front of athletic, quick guards. The most important fact is that he was a 20 year old RS Soph, he should have shown a few more positives. With the way we are recruiting, especially if we can get Joseph and Whitehead I fully expect him to be phased out to spot duty. I hope I am wrong

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[hoopsupstate]

Sometimes it's not always about the best talent, but can you play a role in the system you play in. Cooney is going to be just fine. It's tough to come into a game and be expected to make threes, but if you miss your first two, you're out of the game. Shooters need to get some time to get a feel for a game. He plays hard and is a tough kid. As far as staying in front of quick guards, SU plays zone and it's not nearly as a big an issue. SU has had players athletic and quick as hell and couldn't stay in front of other guards. When SU gets a bigger offensive presence inside, you'll see Cooney start to get better looks and make more shots. Ask Andy how much easier it was when Arinze became a good low post scorer. If I recall, Southerland couldn't make anything when he first started playing. He always looked good shooting, but they never went in with any regularity. As JB has said before, "We recruit good players." Cooney is going to be a good player.

 

[zhanjuzi]

He's definitely no GMac. He's reminds me of Southerland as in being a head case but eventually getting better each year. My hope is by the time TC is a senior he calms down a bit and is capable of contributing at a high level.

The one thing I thought about TC last season was the number of times he tripped when driving low with the ball. I think TC is suffering from what weight lifters call "chicken legs". TC is spending too much time in the weight room developing his upper body and not enough time developing his legs. I think he's top heavy which is why he trips a lot. Just a thought.

Agreed .. time for heavy ATG squatting .. train the muscle group with the biggest bang for the buck.