What must John Wildhack consider as he decides Dino Babers’ fate?

[IthacaBarrel]

$1.85 Billion endowment as of June 2023. Take a few bucks from that

Yeah that ain't happening always strikes me as digging into your 401K for vacation money, probably worse. In addition, many people don't want their $ that they have donated to an academic institution utilized to buy out what amounts to be an over paid phys ed coach for a sport that they probably don't care much about or at all.

 

[Scooch]

Yeah that ain't happening always strikes me as digging into your 401K for vacation money, probably worse. In addition, many people don't want their $ that they have donated to an academic institution utilized to buy out what amounts to be an over paid phys ed coach for a sport that they probably don't care much about or at all.

It's mindblowing how so many diehard SU fans don't understand even the basics when it comes to university and athletics financials. There should be a YouTube video or something to explain it.

 

[elimunelson]

It's mindblowing how so many diehard SU fans don't understand even the basics when it comes to university and athletics financials. There should be a YouTube video or something to explain it.

to be fair, i understand some of it but everyone keeps pointing to an advanced accounting degree to figure out the profitability of the operation. I know it's a non profit organization and i know they can't pillage the endowment of the school but there are alot of known unknowns for myself and how it works with regards to scholarships, revenue from the Dome, revenue from the conf and if downstreams to the university, etc.

All I remember in day 1 of my SU voyage was being in Maxwell and there being a room with a plaque saying, "this is the generous contribution of the 1993 fiesta bowl".

So count me among the neanderthals who have no idea how SU handles their athletic finances above the intro class stuff

 

[Dr. Bill]

You do realize a ND booster literally pays the OC's salary right? LSU had boosters buy out Coach O .. you are comparing apples to an orange. Jimbo Fisher when he is finally fired will be ushered out by big oil boosters ... this spend money mantra is the fanbases not the universities. So if you wish to hammer home a high level of commitment feel free to make your next check payable to Dino Babers.

You are missing the point entirely! It doesn't matter where the money comes from, the point I have been trying to articulate is that Syracuse doesn't have the funds(University + Boosters + NIL + Collectives...etc), to fix all of the issues that need money to fix, compared to the schools that we are competing against. We can cry about all the things Cuse fans are crying about that need fixing, but at the end of the day, the solution involves money that we don't have.

 

[FasterCuse]

to be fair, i understand some of it but everyone keeps pointing to an advanced accounting degree to figure out the profitability of the operation. I know it's a non profit organization and i know they can't pillage the endowment of the school but there are alot of known unknowns for myself and how it works with regards to scholarships, revenue from the Dome, revenue from the conf and if downstreams to the university, etc.

All I remember in day 1 of my SU voyage was being in Maxwell and there being a room with a plaque saying, "this is the generous contribution of the 1993 fiesta bowl".

So count me among the neanderthals who have no idea how SU handles their athletic finances above the intro class stuff

Even the accounting and finance professionals on this board, unless they work within the finance or accounting department at the University, probably wouldn't know how the university is shifting these funds around to their advantage. There are so many different variables and ways that it can be done depending on the end result the University leadership is looking for.

 

[Scooch]

to be fair, i understand some of it but everyone keeps pointing to an advanced accounting degree to figure out the profitability of the operation. I know it's a non profit organization and i know they can't pillage the endowment of the school but there are alot of known unknowns for myself and how it works with regards to scholarships, revenue from the Dome, revenue from the conf and if downstreams to the university, etc.

All I remember in day 1 of my SU voyage was being in Maxwell and there being a room with a plaque saying, "this is the generous contribution of the 1993 fiesta bowl".

So count me among the neanderthals who have no idea how SU handles their athletic finances above the intro class stuff

I wasn’t referring to the intricacies of SU’s accounting and all that. That stuff is inscrutable.

More the basics. Like you can’t just add up the tuition payments that the university collects and claim SU is wealthy so spend it on sports.

 

[Orangefan1]

He shouldn’t have to consider anything at this point to me it’s over. I don’t care how many wins from here. We need a change

 

[orangenauburn]

I'll show my ignorance here.

$40m from ACC is just the football payout right?

Is there a separate payout for basketball from the ACC also?

Ticket revenue from football is what ~$10m (conservative)?

Ticket revenue from hoops is another ~$15m or so?

I wonder how merch moves for the program? No doubt hoops merch probably moves more than football, but I'd be curious to see that accounting.

So just from tickets and ACC payout you're at $65-$70m in revenue.

This doesn't include media deals and contracts, merchandise, or any of the other programs (and Lax probably holds it own in revenue v expense, or close to it).

Someone else figured scholarships are probably $15m for an expense line item, so hoops tickets would cover that.

Dome expense and maintenance probably is quite high, not sure if the university or AD could create a separate entity to handle that or if they already do ( like the Mets have with Citi Field being under Queens Ball Park LLC ).

Total coaches salaries all programs with support staff is probably $20m range.

I guess what I am saying is the Dome and facilities operating expenses are the great unknown.

There is money to cover support staff, scholarships, travel - almost just from the ACC football payout alone.

But if the facilities operating expenses are $40m (campus wide), then you can see where paying for everything else gets tight financially.

Add into it, a future reduction in capacity, which means potential lost future earnings, and you can see where they may be calculating that it's better to ride out the Dino contract or feel they are not able to cover the buyouts of the staff and future payouts to new staff.

And this is probably where the school sees other programs with supporters and boosters who help offset these costs through donations and collectives, and that this programs boosters or collectives are not capable of or strong enough to bridge the gap for the program.

 

[Finwad32]

Now we’re pinching pennies and holding onto a coach who’s clearly underperforming his contract because we’re broke. Sure, I’ll suck up 2024 and sit through miserable bliss in the JMS Wirele$$ Dome where I can’t hear the announcer or use my gd smart phone to keep me entertained when we get drubbed by 4 tuddies in mid November.

Turn off the gd lights at night if you can’t afford the electric bill.

 

[HRE Otto IV]

Are we better off going cheap with HC salary and then instead put the money instead into NIL? Obviously not direct from the school but a good amount of that money used to pay the HC comes from indirect sources.

IMO HCs are waaaay over paid. I don't think there is much of a difference between HC #15 and HC #60. So why are schools forking over all this money to HCs who are not difference makers?

IMO you have great HCs, real good HCs, decent HCs, avg HCs, poor HCs, bad HCs, and complete mess HCs. The lower the salary the quicker we can move on from the last three. The first two aren't staying here long so there is no reason to pay a lot. A decent HC might leave if you pay less than market rate. But an avg one won't have other offers.

I rather have a decent HC over an avg HC but all things being equal there won't be much of a difference in record between the two. But with more NIL money the avg HC's record is likely better.

I thought of this because of Dabo. If they had a HC for $5.5M it would open up $5.5M to use elsewhere. Even if only half that trickles down to NIL, isn't a $5.5M HC with $2.75M more in NIL just as good as Dabo? And in our case isn't a $2M with $1M more in NIL better than a $4M HC?

 

[HRE Otto IV]

Now we’re pinching pennies and holding onto a coach who’s clearly underperforming his contract because we’re broke. Sure, I’ll suck up 2024 and sit through miserable bliss in the JMS Wirele$$ Dome where I can’t hear the announcer or use my gd smart phone to keep me entertained when we get drubbed by 4 tuddies in mid November.

Turn off the gd lights at night if you can’t afford the electric bill.

GRob should have been fired after year 3 but was kept for a 4th year because SU was cheap. We should have seen the signs back then and all turned in our hard core fan cards for casual fan cards. It would have saved us all the pain.

 

[HRE Otto IV]

Or to put it another way would our record be any different with Mullen and $1M less in NIL or Candle and $1M more in NIL? I rather the later as I think that has a higher ceiling. I rather have Mullen and $1M more in NIL but I don’t think that is possible.

 

[elimunelson]

GRob should have been fired after year 3 but was kept for a 4th year because SU was cheap. We should have seen the signs back then and all turned in our hard core fan cards for casual fan cards. It would have saved us all the pain.

I think that's a bit revisionist. I can't remember the ins and outs of 2007 Syracusefan but I think it wasn't an absolute we'd fire a coach after 3 years. Gross hired GERG and was going to give him maximum time to fix things.

I blanked all of that period out of my brain partly because I just had irish twins and my life was consumed by anything but Syracuse football (thankfully)

 

[HRE Otto IV]

I think that's a bit revisionist. I can't remember the ins and outs of 2007 Syracusefan but I think it wasn't an absolute we'd fire a coach after 3 years. Gross hired GERG and was going to give him maximum time to fix things.

I blanked all of that period out of my brain partly because I just had irish twins and my life was consumed by anything but Syracuse football (thankfully)

I was shocked we brought him back. I think the board was 50-50 until game 2 when it became 100%.

 

[rrlbees]

Are we better off going cheap with HC salary and then instead put the money instead into NIL? Obviously not direct from the school but a good amount of that money used to pay the HC comes from indirect sources.

IMO HCs are waaaay over paid. I don't think there is much of a difference between HC #15 and HC #60. So why are schools forking over all this money to HCs who are not difference makers?

IMO you have great HCs, real good HCs, decent HCs, avg HCs, poor HCs, bad HCs, and complete mess HCs. The lower the salary the quicker we can move on from the last three. The first two aren't staying here long so there is no reason to pay a lot. A decent HC might leave if you pay less than market rate. But an avg one won't have other offers.

I rather have a decent HC over an avg HC but all things being equal there won't be much of a difference in record between the two. But with more NIL money the avg HC's record is likely better.

I thought of this because of Dabo. If they had a HC for $5.5M it would open up $5.5M to use elsewhere. Even if only half that trickles down to NIL, isn't a $5.5M HC with $2.75M more in NIL just as good as Dabo? And in our case isn't a $2M with $1M more in NIL better than a $4M HC?

Two different funding sources.

 

[Millhouse]

Are we better off going cheap with HC salary and then instead put the money instead into NIL? Obviously not direct from the school but a good amount of that money used to pay the HC comes from indirect sources.

IMO HCs are waaaay over paid. I don't think there is much of a difference between HC #15 and HC #60. So why are schools forking over all this money to HCs who are not difference makers?

IMO you have great HCs, real good HCs, decent HCs, avg HCs, poor HCs, bad HCs, and complete mess HCs. The lower the salary the quicker we can move on from the last three. The first two aren't staying here long so there is no reason to pay a lot. A decent HC might leave if you pay less than market rate. But an avg one won't have other offers.

I rather have a decent HC over an avg HC but all things being equal there won't be much of a difference in record between the two. But with more NIL money the avg HC's record is likely better.

I thought of this because of Dabo. If they had a HC for $5.5M it would open up $5.5M to use elsewhere. Even if only half that trickles down to NIL, isn't a $5.5M HC with $2.75M more in NIL just as good as Dabo? And in our case isn't a $2M with $1M more in NIL better than a $4M HC?

All the people who say it's not about the Xs and Os it's the Jimmy and Joes should be on board with this

I would also combine with a high variance approach to coaching background. Go relatively cheaper on coach but go after someone who stands out in some way (you know how I would want him to stand out)

 

[Millhouse]

Two different funding sources.

Get creative, all the money you get from individuals, have them put it in one bucket over another.

 

[kcsu]

Follow the approach of teams like NDSU and Cincy. Hire solid up and coming coaches not retreads and not expensive name coaches. Pay a good salary make it a four year no more than five-year deal with a decent buyout and provide a good amount of money for assistant coaches. Hire guys that can recruit your key areas and are proven OCs or DCs. I would prefer an OC to take advantage of the dome. Pay 3 million with incentives for wins and bowls to the head coach and spend the saved money on assistant coaches. Sound like the Holy cross coach

 

[elimunelson]

Follow the approach of teams like NDSU and Cincy. Hire solid up and coming coaches not retreads and not expensive name coaches. Pay a good salary make it a four year no more than five-year deal with a decent buyout and provide a good amount of money for assistant coaches. Hire guys that can recruit your key areas and are proven OCs or DCs. I would prefer an OC to take advantage of the dome. Pay 3 million with incentives for wins and bowls to the head coach and spend the saved money on assistant coaches. Sound like the Holy cross coach

precisely. we need to think like a small market school like the Boise St, Cincy, NDSU types. Syracuse has good bones as a university and football program. Given the right tools it should flourish for what we are.

If we lose a Chesney type in 5 years to Penn St because that's his dream job so be it. We need to be more holistic about coaches with aspirations vs ones looking at this as a destination.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

First, most of it is donor restricted meaning you can’t by law. Second, even if you did take some out, that reduces your base which means you generate less income in future years which equates to a budget deficit.

Did you not read the article I linked to?!?!?!?!?!?

 

[kcsu]

precisely. we need to think like a small market school like the Boise St, Cincy, NDSU types. Syracuse has good bones as a university and football program. Given the right tools it should flourish for what we are.

If we lose a Chesney type in 5 years to Penn St because that's his dream job so be it. We need to be more holistic about coaches with aspirations vs ones looking at this as a destination.

Syracuse has a ton going for it. One thing is that SU doesn't fire coaches on a whim. Dino has been provided with more tools and money than any coach in the history of the school and he has two winning seasons out of 8. If I'm a coach I like that very much. I'm a big Cig fan but the more I dig in i keep coming back to the Holy cross coach. He checks all of the boxes for me and i believe he would be excellent for Syracuse.

 

[rrlbees]

Get creative, all the money you get from individuals, have them put it in one bucket over another.

You can absolutely do that. Tell big donors instead of donating to the university or athletics to donate to a collective. Not sure how many would do it that way but I’m sure some would. I believe that is Lally’s thinking. He said after he’s made his last payment of his gift to the Lally Center he was going to focus more on NIL.

 

[elimunelson]

Syracuse has a ton going for it. One thing is that SU doesn't fire coaches on a whim. Dino has been provided with more tools and money than any coach in the history of the school and he has two winning seasons out of 8. If I'm a coach I like that very much. I'm a big Cig fan but the more I dig in i keep coming back to the Holy cross coach. He checks all of the boxes for me and i believe he would be excellent for Syracuse.

i just want someone that is on the younger side. this lift is going to require energy. the likes of a dan mullin putting in the Coach P sleeping at Manley hours is probably unlikely.

If it means reaching for someone who conventional thinking would consider too green then so be it. Let's roll the dice for once on a hire. Colorado did it with Deion.

 

[upperdeck]

They need to take a deep look at how some of these offensive guys at other levels are creating offense because they all cant have great olines.

Why are these FCS teams competing in some of these games with P5 leagues and scoring pts. Those are the coaches we need to looking at.

We dont need a great oline, But we need 2-3 of the pieces to be solid, then you can scheme around the rest.

Where is NDak/Sdak/Montana getting kids from because it seems like those olines are better than ours much of the time.

 

[Chip]

The pulling from endowments talk is funny. Sounds like something Rutgers would do.

Having said that, here's the part I don't know, so forgive me if I sound overly naive. There's talk somewhere in here about being more difficult for our Athletic Director because the cost of a scholarship is so expensive at a private school like SU.

Is it? Or better stated, does it have to be? If the Athletic Department "pays" the school full tuition for the cost of a scholarship, isn't that just funny money? Nothing fungible to that, so why would we hamstring ourselves? I always assumed the school would set its tuition price based on a variety of factors, one of which being that some number of students pay nothing or reduced tuition based on scholarships. Athletic or otherwise.

Anyone know how SU really handles this stuff?