1996 Syracuse vs. Virginia Tech | Page 2 | Syracusefan.com

1996 Syracuse vs. Virginia Tech

I am of this era, and I can't really bad mouth these teams or their coaches, but I what I am thinking more and more through the lense of time is that; yes we were VERY talented, and no, it wasn't really Coach P. Coach P was a mediocre recruiter who recruited good sized kids and found some diamonds in our region (you're right, NJ has been discovered). We were not the fastest team out there (Miami was) but we were fast enough and creative enough, and talented enough. In reality you can see wins and talent start to decline as soon as he was fully distanced from Mac's teams. P took over in what 1991? He and we had sustained success and with that he was able to bring in fans, and talent (we keep saying that's what we need now, you can see what it does for you just by looking at this). McNabb was on campus in 1994/1995 as a RS Frosh. Harrison was here a year earlier, Darius and T Jones were on campus in 1993 I think as well. I don't think he was ever able to replicate that early recruiting success and I think that was residual of the success that SU had under Mac, that P sustained with Mac's recruits. Also consider the optics then and the image of SU. In the early 90's the idea of the black QB was still an unjustifiably contentious one. SU seemed to embrace the idea that a good QB is a good QB and race was not an issue. What else would you expect from the alma mater of Jim Brown and Ernie Davis? We went from Don McPherson to Marvin Graves to Kevin Mason, and yes I think that may have had an influence on Donovan McNabb. He landed some great players as time went on, but I think the drop off was apparent by 2000. He could not sustain the success and that effected recruiting (and vice versa). I don't think P was bad, but I don't think I can give him full credit for his first successes. Babers will be self made.

Deleone and P helped put Mac over the top. Deleone was made OC in '87 and P joined the staff for that year.

There's a reason why P got the job as the LB coach and why he was glued to Mac on the sideline as soon as he got here.
 
Deleone and P helped put Mac over the top. Deleone was made OC in '87 and P joined the staff for that year.

There's a reason why P got the job as the LB coach and why he was glued to Mac on the sideline as soon as he got here.

Like I said, I am not really questioning the teams or the talent, or P for that matter. He was a good coach and I loved watching his teams. His no nonsense attitude was one I could identify with and I think fit Syracuse in the mold of guys like Schwartzwalder and Coughlin. I just feel like the success of the late 80's really made the teams of the early to mid 90's. I can't give P full credit for the success. Mac changed the attitude and the product on the field. When Mac's game day ability left, it seems wins dropped off a bit too, and the inflow of talent followed.
 
When Mac's game day ability left, it seems wins dropped off a bit too

The numbers really don't support that. Mac peaked in 1987 going undefeated (against an incredibly weak schedule), and then we won 10 games, 8 games, and then 7 games in his final season in 1990. Coach P went 10-2 the following two seasons in 1991 and 1992.

Coach P was a more successful coach at SU than Mac was. It's just that Mac was 100x more charismatic.
 
The numbers really don't support that. Mac peaked in 1987 going undefeated (against an incredibly weak schedule), and then we won 10 games, 8 games, and then 7 games in his final season in 1990. Coach P went 10-2 the following two seasons in 1991 and 1992.

Coach P was a more successful coach at SU than Mac was. It's just that Mac was 100x more charismatic.

Maybe its as simple as that. Maybe my bias for a more charismatic guy is showing through. What can I say, I was raised on Bill Parcells.

Really just longing to see us return to this level of play, talent, and excitement. At the opening of the broadcast they say we have self destructed and that our national title hopes are dashed. No matter how negative and depressing that is, what's worse is we don't hear rhetoric like that anymore. Hoping and feeling like Dino will change that.
 
The numbers really don't support that. Mac peaked in 1987 going undefeated (against an incredibly weak schedule), and then we won 10 games, 8 games, and then 7 games in his final season in 1990. Coach P went 10-2 the following two seasons in 1991 and 1992.

Coach P was a more successful coach at SU than Mac was. It's just that Mac was 100x more charismatic.
Every program has ups and downs. That 7 win team was very young and I can't see how Mac would have done any worse in '91 had he stayed. P was handed a good program and maintained it well for a while. If he had avoided some of the What loses of the McNabb era and won 10 games once or twice during that era, maybe the recruiting doesn't fall off. But he couldn't and he wasn't able to adapt with the times.
 
The numbers really don't support that. Mac peaked in 1987 going undefeated (against an incredibly weak schedule), and then we won 10 games, 8 games, and then 7 games in his final season in 1990. Coach P went 10-2 the following two seasons in 1991 and 1992.

Coach P was a more successful coach at SU than Mac was. It's just that Mac was 100x more charismatic.

Mac also had a signature season that made him a legend.

I really think that things would have been different for Coach P had he managed to pull off something like that. Maybe what VaTech did in '99 would had been us had Vick come here? Our schedule did him no favors, but 9-3, 9-3, 9-4, 8-4 from '95-'98 was good enough to be viewed as successful, but not great enough to insulate him from criticism.

Hell, most of the criticism of him died down a lot after 2001, but then we went 4-8 immediately following that and it all resurfaced.

You really can't underestimate the value of a truly great season. It buys a LOT of goodwill.
 
Our schedule did him no favors

I think that's a very important detail. Mac only played one ranked team during the regular seasons of 1987 and 1988, his two best seasons.
 
I think that's a very important detail. Mac only played one ranked team during the regular seasons of 1987 and 1988, his two best seasons.

For sure. In '97 we had an OOC slate of Wisconsin, NC State, Oklahoma, Tulane and East Carolina. '98 was Tennessee, Michigan, NC State and Cincinnati.

That's simply overscheduling. You don't play a schedule like that when you have Miami, VaTech, WVU and BC in conference.
 
For sure. In '97 we had an OOC slate of Wisconsin, NC State, Oklahoma, Tulane and East Carolina. '98 was Tennessee, Michigan, NC State and Cincinnati.

That's simply overscheduling. You don't play a schedule like that when you have Miami, VaTech, WVU and BC in conference.

I agree and disagree. The Big East was very weak during that 1996-1998 stretch when SU was very good. Miami was reeling on probation and VT was solid but was pre-Vick. If we played a weaker non-conference schedule and went undefeated, I think there's a very good chance we could have been left out of the BCS title game over a 1-loss SEC team, etc.

Some of those teams you listed above stunk when we played them. Oklahoma and NC State were only like 3-4 win teams.
 
I agree and disagree. The Big East was very weak during that 1996-1998 stretch when SU was very good. Miami was reeling on probation and VT was solid but was pre-Vick. If we played a weaker non-conference schedule and went undefeated, I think there's a very good chance we could have been left out of the BCS title game over a 1-loss SEC team, etc.

Some of those teams you listed above stunk when we played them. Oklahoma and NC State were only like 3-4 win teams.

NCState had winning record both years. Played OU on the road.
 
I agree and disagree. The Big East was very weak during that 1996-1998 stretch when SU was very good. Miami was reeling on probation and VT was solid but was pre-Vick. If we played a weaker non-conference schedule and went undefeated, I think there's a very good chance we could have been left out of the BCS title game over a 1-loss SEC team, etc.

Some of those teams you listed above stunk when we played them. Oklahoma and NC State were only like 3-4 win teams.

I'll (respectfully) disagree with your disagreement. Those schedules were made when Miami was among the greatest programs in college football history. And we scheduled THREE major conference teams OOC in each year. That's at least one too many, probably two. Granted, I didn't complain at the time, so I'm applying 20/20 hindsight. But it's clear that we were scheduling with an independent mentality years after we were not an independent anymore.

And FWIW, in '99 VaTech made the national title game by going 11-0 against a schedule where they beat four opponents ranked 16 and higher at the time they played them (#24 UVA, #16 SU, #19 Miami, #22 BC). Seeing as three of those were in-conference, I suspect compiling a similar resume would have been fine.
 
Deleone and P helped put Mac over the top. Deleone was made OC in '87 and P joined the staff for that year.

There's a reason why P got the job as the LB coach and why he was glued to Mac on the sideline as soon as he got here.

Casullo and Edsall were the recruiters on staff. When P got hired, we lost Edsall. I think our success in '87 was George O'Leary's offense run by DeLeone.
 
I'll (respectfully) disagree with your disagreement. Those schedules were made when Miami was among the greatest programs in college football history. And we scheduled THREE major conference teams OOC in each year. That's at least one too many, probably two. Granted, I didn't complain at the time, so I'm applying 20/20 hindsight. But it's clear that we were scheduling with an independent mentality years after we were not an independent anymore.

And FWIW, in '99 VaTech made the national title game by going 11-0 against a schedule where they beat four opponents ranked 16 and higher at the time they played them (#24 UVA, #16 SU, #19 Miami, #22 BC). Seeing as three of those were in-conference, I suspect compiling a similar resume would have been fine.

OOC in '99 : James Madison - Home , UAB - Home , Clemson (6-6) Home, and UVA (7-5) Home. What a joke

SU in '98: Eventual NC Tennessee at home, at defending NC UM on the road, at NCSt 7-5 night game, and Cinci at home.

That NCSt game was harder than VT's hardest OOC game the following year. SU is undefeated and not beat up going into that Saturday night in Morgantown with the same schedule VT had.
 
Casullo and Edsall were the recruiters on staff. When P got hired, we lost Edsall. I think our success in '87 was George O'Leary's offense run by DeLeone.

George O'Leary's offense? What was that, considering he was the defensive coordinator?
 
Mac also had a signature season that made him a legend.

I really think that things would have been different for Coach P had he managed to pull off something like that. Maybe what VaTech did in '99 would had been us had Vick come here? Our schedule did him no favors, but 9-3, 9-3, 9-4, 8-4 from '95-'98 was good enough to be viewed as successful, but not great enough to insulate him from criticism.

Hell, most of the criticism of him died down a lot after 2001, but then we went 4-8 immediately following that and it all resurfaced.

You really can't underestimate the value of a truly great season. It buys a LOT of goodwill.
Spot on. Anyone that watched the games had to know that winning 10 that year was abnormal. Dwight Freeney controlled games like few defensive players have. The turnovers he created managed to more than make up for the fact that teams gained 30 yards more per game and .5 more per play than we did.
 
Deleone and P helped put Mac over the top. Deleone was made OC in '87 and P joined the staff for that year.

There's a reason why P got the job as the LB coach and why he was glued to Mac on the sideline as soon as he got here.
Maybe that was Mac's strength, putting people in place that led to team success. I'll never say P was a bad coach. From all the success he's had as an NFL position coach it's obvious he knows how to teach guys how to play football. He just wasn't able to adapt or put and keep pieces around him that could adapt the team as time went on.
 
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George O'Leary didn't coach a minute of offense while he was at SU. Period

It's a typo.
He wasn't the DC. It's not that big a deal (to me at least). My point was that while I admire P and will always look back on him as a good coach and good for the program, in my opinion, his deficiencies came to light quickly once he was 4-5 years separated from Mac. I can't tell which came first in the chicken or egg scenario, but system and game day decisions leading to losses and a dip in recruiting are hand in hand.
 
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The numbers really don't support that. Mac peaked in 1987 going undefeated (against an incredibly weak schedule), and then we won 10 games, 8 games, and then 7 games in his final season in 1990. Coach P went 10-2 the following two seasons in 1991 and 1992.

Wrong. The Juniors and Seniors on P's 10-2 teams were recruited on the strength of the 1987-88 seasons. When you stockpile talent, it usually takes 2-3 years for good players to see the field. This is why 87-88 was followed by a second peak in 91-92. Credit P for signing a tremendous haul in 94-95 but in the years that followed we were no longer the only destination for black dual-purpose QBs and our facilities continued to deteriorate. Success or decline is usually a result of many factors.
 
Credit P for signing a tremendous haul in 94-95 but in the years that followed we were no longer the only destination for black dual-purpose QBs

We were the only destination for black dual-purpose QBs up until the mid-90s? Did I miss something?
 
We were the only destination for black dual-purpose QBs up until the mid-90s? Did I miss something?
We were one of the few teams that gave athletic qb's (yes they were often black) the chance to stay at qb when other teams only wanted them for other positions. It was mentioned often in the media in the late '80's and early '90's. By the time McNabb graduated many more peer schools had become more comfortable with them and we lost our preferred recruiting pitch.
 

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