2022 Bracketology | Page 7 | Syracusefan.com

2022 Bracketology

back when they seemed to be actually trying to make their own formula year to year, i and some others railed on the 5 team bracketing of wins and l's up to 20. it's patently stupid.

a properly built system of counting w's and l's would go far beyond 20, and maybe go to 70+, awarding credit or debit for each. having a win against #5 being worth the same as vs #1, and a win vs #6 being worth the same as #10 is equally dumb. havinfg a win vs #21 being the same as #69, but vs #20 is a top win? it's crazy.

fast forward to 2022, and a loss to jax is a bad loss, but the committee has them somewhere near #10 prior to yesterday?

we need a system.

This is more or less how I did it last year. I racked basically the top half of D1 in some order of how much it seemed like it was worth based on "order" and weighed everything that way. Since the Big Ten and MAAC being disconnected screwed the RPI order if you included those conferences. Wins over teams that were ~30th best were still worth something. Less than 20th best team, but something.

That so much hinged on Villanova and Hopkins dancing around the 20th line in a pillow fight... lol.

It's why this talk of Rutgers jumping to 2nd or 3rd if they beat Maryland blew my mind. A win over Maryland is the same as win over Penn... it's not that special (even though it probably really is) for raising your profile. Big Ten champion Rutgers was probably heading for a #4 seed. Maybe #3 if and only if Penn won the Ivy League, but I think it was a huge stretch.
 
btw, someone posted on another site, with conference champs wrapping up... duke has beaten 5 of the 10 aq conference champs. as long as the committee makes up criteria as they go along, there's that.

as well as the co-champs of the acc conference (who won the head-to-head).
 
btw, someone posted on another site, with conference champs wrapping up... duke has beaten 5 of the 10 aq conference champs. as long as the committee makes up criteria as they go along, there's that.

as well as the co-champs of the acc conference (who won the head-to-head).

Yep. I was talking about it this morning too.

Screen Shot 2022-05-08 at 9.59.17 AM.png
 
Yep. I was talking about it this morning too.

View attachment 217074
i told you months ago 2 of 3 of nd, duke and syr were likely to find their way to the bubble or inside it on rpi. this little run took all of the hit and then some for the nd loss for duke. they're comfortably up at 8.

if the committee drops them, they'll be dropping a bomb on previous rpi weight and process. they could do it, but it will take some heavy deviation from past practice. could they stare down loyola and jax as "bad losses" and the outlier? possible. i'm from muzzurah.
 
i told you months ago 2 of 3 of nd, duke and syr were likely to find their way to the bubble or inside it on rpi

My call for basically all of March/early April was 4/3/3 Ivy/ACC/Big Ten (3/3/2 at large). The only thing that shifted me off of it was when it became clear that Brown was getting in after they beat Yale.

The question became who was missing: Ohio State or ACC #3. I leaned OSU in/ACC #3 out the last few weeks. I think I was wrong.1.png2.png3.png4.png
 

Same call that I made. Some seeds shuffled.

Hempstead, N.Y.​

(1) BIG TEN/Maryland vs. AMERICA EAST/Vermont-MAAC/Manhattan
(8) Duke vs. Brown

Columbus, Ohio​

(5) Penn vs. SOUTHERN/Richmond
(4) IVY/Yale vs. PATRIOT/Boston University

Hempstead, N.Y.​

(3) Princeton vs. NEC/Saint Joseph’s
(6) Rutgers vs. Virginia

Columbus, Ohio​

(7) Cornell vs. Notre Dame
(2) BIG EAST/Georgetown vs. CAA/Delaware-ASUN/Robert Morris

Last three in: Brown, Virginia, Notre Dame

First three out: Ohio State, Harvard, North Carolina

Moving in: Manhattan, Notre Dame, Richmond, Robert Morris

Moving out: Jacksonville, Ohio State, St. Bonaventure, Utah

Conference call: Ivy (5), ACC (3), Big Ten (2)
 
final games in the books pulling duke up to 7 and pushing harvard and tosu to 14/15.
 

Wanna take a guess?

---

10. Notre Dame (8-4)

RPI: 11

Top 5 Wins: 0

Top 6-20 Wins: 3

Non Top-20 Losses: 0

11. Duke (11-6)

RPI: 7

Top 5 Wins: 0

Top 6-20 Wins: 5

Non Top-20 Losses: 3

12. Ohio State (10-5)

RPI: 14

Top 5 Wins: 0

Top 6-20 Wins: 3

Non Top-20 Losses: 0

13. Harvard (8-4)

RPI: 15

Top 5 Wins: 1

Top 6-20 Wins: 3

Non Top-20 Losses: 0

----


Same order that I had. It's the only way that I can see to justify this bubble call. And it's what I think the committee is going to do. It's a sickness - it's spreading.
 
Why all the handwringing and guesswork? We’ll know for certain in a few hours.
 

Wanna take a guess?

---

10. Notre Dame (8-4)

RPI: 11

Top 5 Wins: 0

Top 6-20 Wins: 3

Non Top-20 Losses: 0

11. Duke (11-6)

RPI: 7

Top 5 Wins: 0

Top 6-20 Wins: 5

Non Top-20 Losses: 3

12. Ohio State (10-5)

RPI: 14

Top 5 Wins: 0

Top 6-20 Wins: 3

Non Top-20 Losses: 0

13. Harvard (8-4)

RPI: 15

Top 5 Wins: 1

Top 6-20 Wins: 3

Non Top-20 Losses: 0

----


Same order that I had. It's the only way that I can see to justify this bubble call. And it's what I think the committee is going to do. It's a sickness - it's spreading.
I have Harvard in. Although they only have 2 6-20 wins.
To me Harvard's win over the #2 RPI team Princeton is very strong. Princeton is a team we would predict to be in the final four based on RPI. Harvard supports this win with wins over #10 Brown and #13 BU. No bad losses. Good RPI.

In the end, I guess I would leave out UVa and OSU. The 11-3 record is really nice for UVa, but the lack of quality wins is detrimental. Perhaps one could leave Duke out due to the non-top 20 losses.
 
what really made the Duke call hard was they had so many more games than a team like Harvard.
 
what really made the Duke call hard was they had so many more games than a team like Harvard.
Then Harvard and Notre Dame just having 12 games.

In the end, one has to figure those 3 out of the top 20 RPI losses knocked Duke out. Perhaps each negated a top 20 win or something.
 
I have Harvard in. Although they only have 2 6-20 wins.
To me Harvard's win over the #2 RPI team Princeton is very strong. Princeton is a team we would predict to be in the final four based on RPI. Harvard supports this win with wins over #10 Brown and #13 BU. No bad losses. Good RPI.

In the end, I guess I would leave out UVa and OSU. The 11-3 record is really nice for UVa, but the lack of quality wins is detrimental. Perhaps one could leave Duke out due to the non-top 20 losses.
In review.
I could see Harvard was in based on their quality wins. Then they seemed to really discount Duke for the bad losses. So one could see OSU getting in for having a win over Harvard. OSU also had a 14-11 head-to-head win over Notre Dame.
The choice of UVa over ND is a little hard to fathom. They apparently discounted the Duke wins so much, that the went to the UVa-ND head-to-head. Wow. Of course, Duke beat UVa.

In the past, the committees have talked about playing a tough schedule. Notre Dame appeared to try to do this by adding Georgetown and Maryland, while UVa only added Maryland.
 
In review.
I could see Harvard was in based on their quality wins. Then they seemed to really discount Duke for the bad losses. So one could see OSU getting in for having a win over Harvard. OSU also had a 14-11 head-to-head win over Notre Dame.
The choice of UVa over ND is a little hard to fathom. They apparently discounted the Duke wins so much, that the went to the UVa-ND head-to-head. Wow. Of course, Duke beat UVa.

In the past, the committees have talked about playing a tough schedule. Notre Dame appeared to try to do this by adding Georgetown and Maryland, while UVa only added Maryland.

It all comes down to bubble composition. I spent basically an hour + making on a show laying out various things to eventually arrive at this point.

This talk from the committee of “it was 6 teams for 4 spots” - that’s not the ultimate bubble. The bubble isn’t half the at-larges, I’m sorry. At some point you have to zoom in and make difficult decisions for one or two spots.

So… from a data analysis perspective… not a what I ultimately thought they were going to do perspective… I thought the final bubble was OSU, Harvard, and UND for 2 spots. I saw Duke as second team out but being clearly off the back of this group, not close enough to be in the final discussion.

OSU has the head to head over both of the others and are an easy choice to remove (in) from this discussion. Then it’s Harvard/UND in a close call for the last spot. I thought Harvard had the slightly better case in this comparison, but the data was there to support either and I could live with it.

I do not think that UVA was seriously ever on the ultimate bubble. I say this mostly only based on how the committee had previously evaluated UVA (and Rutgers). They were both being consistently evaluated more positively than the actual selection criteria data suggested they should be. Now had UVA been in this zoomed in bubble, maybe they lose the comparison to whom they are being compared for this final spot - but I don’t think they were ever in this position. If anything, my main problem with how UVA was evaluated in the final bracket is the gulf between where they and Rutgers were placed. I do not think their evaluation of these two were internally consistent. Either over-evaluate both (6/7) or neither (8/9), and I'm fine with it. However, my theory here is that they split them by the Ivy League pair primarily to "make the bracket work." I had been on the record for quite some time saying that 8/9 almost certainly had to be Ivy vs. ACC to make the bracket work in a sensible way with a representative matchup in that game/QF it fed into. And with UVA as the only ACC team in the field, well...

What ultimately screwed up 2 of the 3 bubble calls (mine and IL) is that we were treating Duke as a bubble team because we expected that was how the committee was going to choose to treat them. With them, it’s 4 teams for 2 spots and there was only one way to present the order within this final bubble that made any sense (ND>Duke // OSU>Harvard) to ultimately put both ACC bubble teams in the field - which is what all 3 calls felt they were going to do. (Stevens is a... different... case of logic that I still do not know 100% what to make of. )

I was screaming at the top of my lungs that I thought this was wrong. I did not think that the data when you really sat down and looked at it in conjunction with their stated criteria supported Duke as a team on the ultimate bubble. I am not a professional journalist, and I have more freedom and latitude to say what I want without worrying about the consequences. IL was more pragmatic “it’s close” - and that’s totally fair. Stevens… oh where do I start.


How out of touch is this? "Thinking it's a safe bet there will be more consternation about the seeding rather than the selection of the 18-team tournament tomorrow night." He STILL had Duke seeded. His ultimate bubble call without Duke being in the mix there to muddle things of UND (in) // OSU&Havard (out) just blows my mind. Looking at those 3 teams as an ultimate comparison for 1 spot and coming up with anything other than OSU as the one in... I do not see how you do it unless you think there is NO ULTIMATE BUBBLE. He did not think it was even close for the last spot, I guess? This call of 3 ACC teams in was presented as the *only* call - there was no room for debate.

So... a lot of words to say, it comes down to the composition of teams for the last spot or two as to what the call is. Some teams do well in close comparisons with certain teams, but not others. For example, OSU has a head-to-head win over UND and Harvard that helps them in that comparison. But OSU vs. Duke is less conclusive if you think that's the comparison for the final spot (as my projection/IL's projection thought the committee would eventually arrive and and it seems ESPN was trying to present it as).

Woodruff’s words to me suggest that Duke was removed from consideration before they arrived at at their ultimate bubble, which I think went as I presented above of 3 teams for 2 spots. Then remove OSU (in) and it’s Harvard/UND for the last spot.

But this is only my opinion of how it all went down from a) my having assessed these teams seriously for over a month now and b) reading and interpreting the quotes that we were given from the committee. There is a chance that I am totally wrong and just as out of touch with the committee's line of thinking as I think Stevens was with his call.
 
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I guess that would be another way of looking at it, although I prefer mine.

In the Rutgers - UVa comparison, once they decided OSU was in, and Rutgers had 2 wins over OSU, it would make Rutgers significantly higher for seeding purposes as UVa had no wins over tournament teams.
 
I guess that would be another way of looking at it, although I prefer mine.

In the Rutgers - UVa comparison, once they decided OSU was in, and Rutgers had 2 wins over OSU, it would make Rutgers significantly higher for seeding pusrposes as UVa had no wins over tournament teams.

And why does this matter? At no point in the selection/seeding/bracketing criteria and instructions is this mentioned as a criterion or something that is considered.

Rutgers and UVA evaluate almost identically per stated criteria (RU evaluates slightly more positively imo, but it's close). You are going to be hard-pressed to convince me that, given:

RU / UVA = look more or less the same per stated criteria

Cornell / Brown = look more or less the same, except in a very different way than the above two, per stated criteria
-

The two Ivy League teams just so happen to split them for reasons other than that wonderful bracket integrity.

If you have alternatives for a representative 8/9 matchup given the composition of this field (that feeds into playing #1 UMCP) that isn't UVA vs. Ivy, I'd love to hear it. (Because there's not one!)

A) it's not outright forbidden, but they're clearly trying to avoid Rutgers and especially @OSU - they'd never hear the end of @ for two years in a row.
B) it's very strongly discouraged to have conference games in the first round. This all but eliminates the possibility of Ivy vs. Ivy at 8/9
C) at this point, if it's not UVA, we've already all but eliminated their effective 6 (RU), 9 (UVA), 10 (OSU), 11 (Harvard). Leaving us with one of: Richmond/BU for this spot. And by this point/strength of teams, I'd begin to argue that these teams are no longer of representative strength to maintain bracket integrity for an 8/9-type game.

And that's why I was willing to strongly state that an ACC team almost surely had to be in the 8/9 game. I just didn't expect there to be only one choice!
 
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I still don't see Rutgers and UVa as that close by the criteria.
 
Thanks for playing, Manhattan.
the committee chair already said beating tournament teams matters.
now everyone's repeating it.
good luck bracketologists.

i could see richmond especially playing an 8. and even boston and they save a flight?
 

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