Abrupt change in recruiting...

[pfister1]

Jalen Carey and Brycen Goodine were 4 star talents.
Bulldog’s point applies to players like these 2. Who are talented but didn’t produce here.

Until Richmond actually produces our fans shouldn’t pump his tires. All we heard last year was how much Goodine was going to produce preseason and then he didn’t.

I think this is a different issue altogether. There is recruiting - convincing the players you want to come and play for you. Separately there is player evaluation- recognizing which kids will be successful and which may not.

Both players (Carey and Goodine) were players that were highly sought after, in proportion to their rankings. So with them we were successful in recruiting the talent level we are trying to get back to, just not at the talent evaluation/system fit part of the equation.

 

[pfister1]

So here’s the quandary with the fan base with SU from what I have learned from this board ... everyone Wants the most elite players but complain up a storm when they don’t land them and say they should have been recruiting other players and not the top recruits because it ends up being a waste of time.
thennnn if they get the #92 ranked player, the staff shoulda been recruiting better players and didn’t work hard enough to land the big fish And the #92 ranked recruit is worthy enough to be at Syracuse

PLEASE MAKE UP YOUR MIND

No that describes a vocal minority, not the majority of the fanbase.

 

[IthacaMatt]

Ah I forgot that we have every top 10 kid lining up to come here and we just choose not to offer them

We used to get a top 25 kid, a top 50 kid, plus another top 100 kid pretty much every single recruiting class from about 1984 to about 2014 or so. That's 30 years of punching above our weight, until we moved up a class.

 

[IthacaMatt]

Jalen Carey and Brycen Goodine were hyped by our fanbase before their seasons started.

We can’t afforf to miss on 4 star recruits like we have. That is on the people who are in charge of recruiting.

Two comments - there is so much available video and recruiting information about kids these days in the top 300 or so among basketball recruits nationally that there is no "fan hype" - the information is right out there for people to see, and then they can make up their own minds.

But most of us on here have been watching Syracuse for decades now. When we get 4 star players, looking back over the last 30+ years, they almost always worked out (unlike football, may I add ...).

Say what you want about the short bench - yes, some years it's pretty short, particularly during the stretch run.
But it seems like he has forgotten that he used to play about 9-10 guys for a couple months at the beginning of each year to find out who the future contributors would be.

C.J. Fair didn't start off as a star, but we played enough people in 2010-11 (9 guys who all played that year) so that he got a chance to contribute. When guys are hurt, play the bench.

Scoop Jardine is another. He was on that 2011 team, when CJ was a freshman. Scoop was a junior that year. When Scoop was a frosh, back in 2007-08. Devendorf and Andy got hurt, and 7 other guys played, including Scoop, giving him a chance to grow as a player and become an essential contributor on subsequent teams.

This whole player development dynamic seems to have been lost. So many guys leave just as they are beginning to become stars, and we see the same level of player decide to come back to other schools. It makes it feel even worse.

With 13 players on scholarship this year, we have to play 9 or 10 guys until Christmas, and then at least 8 or 9 after that, depending on matchups and foul trouble this year. To play a deeper bench will allow more moves to address weaknesses tactically during the game. Players offer different skill sets suitable to the situation.

I hope to see more of that if we have a season this year.

 

[Alsacs]

Two comments - there is so much available video and recruiting information about kids these days in the top 300 or so among basketball recruits nationally that there is no "fan hype" - the information is right out there for people to see, and then they can make up their own minds.

But most of us on here have been watching Syracuse for decades now. When we get 4 star players, looking back over the last 30+ years, they almost always worked out (unlike football, may I add ...).

Say what you want about the short bench - yes, some years it's pretty short, particularly during the stretch run.
But it seems like he has forgotten that he used to play about 9-10 guys for a couple months at the beginning of each year to find out who the future contributors would be.

C.J. Fair didn't start off as a star, but we played enough people in 2010-11 (9 guys who all played that year) so that he got a chance to contribute. When guys are hurt, play the bench.

Scoop Jardine is another. He was on that 2011 team, when CJ was a freshman. Scoop was a junior that year. When Scoop was a frosh, back in 2007-08. Devendorf and Andy got hurt, and 7 other guys played, including Scoop, giving him a chance to grow as a player and become an essential contributor on subsequent teams.

This whole player development dynamic seems to have been lost. So many guys leave just as they are beginning to become stars, and we see the same level of player decide to come back to other schools. It makes it feel even worse.

With 13 players on scholarship this year, we have to play 9 or 10 guys until Christmas, and then at least 8 or 9 after that, depending on matchups and foul trouble this year. To play a deeper bench will allow more moves to address weaknesses tactically during the game. Players offer different skill sets suitable to the situation.

I hope to see more of that if we have a season this year.

Who is the 4th guard?
No chance the 4th guard plays except during walk-on time.
I would love to play 9.
I won’t believe it.
JB wants every win. Can’t risk games playing the bench is his mantra and it won’t change.

 

[OrangeDW]

Yep, our run of ____ consecutive years with 1st round picks was nice and all, but the only player that amounted to anything at all was Jerami Grant, who wasn't even a 1st round pick and no recruit will be excited if your selling point is that you could turn them into the next good role player in the NBA or worse.

Lack of results in the NBA, offensive scheme that doesn't really prepare guys well/showcase them all that well, defensive scheme that doesn't translate well, and who knows who your coach might be...it's not a great pitch right now.

That’s a bit of an exaggeration. MCW was rookie of the year, and Waiters has had some nice seasons. Wes was mostly a starter too.

 

[OrangeDW]

I think this is true. Gerry has always been one of Boeheim's favorites, and why not? He left quite a legacy as a player. Gerry doesn't have the vibrant personality of a Hop, that's the problem.
But JB probably doesn't see it that way, because he's not a smooth talking salesman type of recruiter, either. So he's probably comfortable with Gerry's monotone responses to media questions.

To me GMac comes across personable and fairly charismatic in interviews and on twitter. Don’t know what he’s like day to day, but some of you guys talk like he’s the dark and disturbed Jerry:

 

[UpstateSM]

None of the last five national champions played more than 8 guys and three of them only really played 6 or 7. Most great college basketball teams don’t go too deep into their bench, especially when it matters.

7 or 8 is cool with me. 9 if our 9th guy is able to contribute in the ACC. I don’t like bench minutes just for the sake of bench minutes. I get why people disagree with me though

 

[OrangeDW]

None of the last five national champions played more than 8 guys and three of them only really played 6 or 7. Most great college basketball teams don’t go too deep into their bench, especially when it matters.

7 or 8 is cool with me. 9 if our 9th guy is able to contribute in the ACC. I don’t like bench minutes just for the sake of bench minutes. I get why people disagree with me though

Yup. 2003 team played 8 in the tourney.

Arguably our best team played 7, in 2010.

1996 played 7.

I think 8 is ideal: a backup ball handler, swing man, and post player.

However 7 can be just is good with some highly versatile players, making only 1 backcourt and 1 frontcourt sub off the bench necessary.

 

[Alsacs]

Yup. 2003 team played 8 in the tourney.

Arguably our best team played 7, in 2010.

1996 played 7.

I think 8 is ideal: a backup ball handler, swing man, and post player.

However 7 can be just is good with some highly versatile players, making only 1 backcourt and 1 frontcourt sub off the bench necessary.

If you have elite talent or all conference talent you should ride it.

If you have medicore talent that you are just trying to grind to be medicore you shouldn’t ride that talent.

We used to play a deeper bench in the nonconference season because we were more talented.
Now because our talent isn’t as strong we can’t even play depth in the nonconference without risking losing.

I like Joe Girard and Buddy Boeheim as players they are solid but I can’t tell you how much I bleeping hate that I feel they are going to play 40 every game. It’s just unbelievable. That right there is why I have lost it.
The best bet is Richmond gets Boeheim to play Buddy, Girard and Richmond like he did Triche, Scoop and Dion where each guy got 25 MPG and they just rotated the minutes.
I don’t think he will do that with this year’s team. JB’s short rotation for non superstar players has broken me.

 

[UpstateSM]

Yup. 2003 team played 8 in the tourney.

Arguably our best team played 7, in 2010.

1996 played 7.

I think 8 is ideal: a backup ball handler, swing man, and post player.

However 7 can be just is good with some highly versatile players, making only 1 backcourt and 1 frontcourt sub off the bench necessary.

Exactly.

If I had to guess right now without having watched a second of this team I would say there’s no way we play 9.

JG3
Buddy
Griffin
Marek
Bourama

Q
Kadary
And HOPEFULLY Jesse (assuming he’s ahead of Frank) is ready to play real backup minutes at the 5 when it counts.

I’ll be surprised if we go beyond that, unless absolutely forced to, and I’ll be very happy if Jesse is getting real burn in ACC play.

 

[moqui]

Yup. 2003 team played 8 in the tourney.

Arguably our best team played 7, in 2010.

1996 played 7.

I think 8 is ideal: a backup ball handler, swing man, and post player.

However 7 can be just is good with some highly versatile players, making only 1 backcourt and 1 frontcourt sub off the bench necessary.

also, the three best players on that 2010 team were all 2 and 3 star recruits. highest ranked rotation player was scoop who finished at rsci #50

 

[Alsacs]

Exactly.

If I had to guess right now without having watched a second of this team I would say there’s no way we play 9.

JG3
Buddy
Griffin
Marek
Bourama

Q
Kadary
And HOPEFULLY Jesse (assuming he’s ahead of Frank) is ready to play real backup minutes at the 5 when it counts.

I’ll be surprised if we go beyond that, unless absolutely forced to, and I’ll be very happy if Jesse is getting real burn in ACC play.

Not having an offensive weapon guard off the bench killed the 2013 team.

We needed a guard who could actually play a little off the bench.
We had Triche and MCW and Cooney as the 3rd guard. We had no 4th guard.
Why are we struggling to find a 4th quality guard.

We don’t have one this year.

It’s a pattern. I mean we got away with in 2013 because we had MCW and Triche. Those are studs you ride.

Why are so many guards flaming out here? When our assistants are all ex-guards.

 

[Melancer46]

That’s a bit of an exaggeration. MCW was rookie of the year, and Waiters has had some nice seasons. Wes was mostly a starter too.

MCW appears to have settled in as like a 9th-10th man for a bad team. Dion is worse. Wes was a major bust and never really had a moment where he was a positive contributor at all. He got the chance to start for the team that drafted him top 5, sucked, and then he got a shot with the Lakers where he sucked.

 

[OrangeDW]

MCW appears to have settled in as like a 9th-10th man for a bad team. Dion is worse. Wes was a major bust and never really had a moment where he was a positive contributor at all. He got the chance to start for the team that drafted him top 5, sucked, and then he got a shot with the Lakers where he sucked.

Nah, Wes was ok for the Lakers. The team sucked, but he did alright.

I wasn’t saying MCW and Dion are doing great right now...just that they’ve had their moments. I was disagreeing with “nobody amounted to anything”.

 

[FrancoPizza]

Two comments - there is so much available video and recruiting information about kids these days in the top 300 or so among basketball recruits nationally that there is no "fan hype" - the information is right out there for people to see, and then they can make up their own minds.

But most of us on here have been watching Syracuse for decades now. When we get 4 star players, looking back over the last 30+ years, they almost always worked out (unlike football, may I add ...).

Say what you want about the short bench - yes, some years it's pretty short, particularly during the stretch run.
But it seems like he has forgotten that he used to play about 9-10 guys for a couple months at the beginning of each year to find out who the future contributors would be.

C.J. Fair didn't start off as a star, but we played enough people in 2010-11 (9 guys who all played that year) so that he got a chance to contribute. When guys are hurt, play the bench.

Scoop Jardine is another. He was on that 2011 team, when CJ was a freshman. Scoop was a junior that year. When Scoop was a frosh, back in 2007-08. Devendorf and Andy got hurt, and 7 other guys played, including Scoop, giving him a chance to grow as a player and become an essential contributor on subsequent teams.

This whole player development dynamic seems to have been lost. So many guys leave just as they are beginning to become stars, and we see the same level of player decide to come back to other schools. It makes it feel even worse.

With 13 players on scholarship this year, we have to play 9 or 10 guys until Christmas, and then at least 8 or 9 after that, depending on matchups and foul trouble this year. To play a deeper bench will allow more moves to address weaknesses tactically during the game. Players offer different skill sets suitable to the situation.

I hope to see more of that if we have a season this year.

The reason he used to play a deeper bench before conference play is that the talent differential afforded him big leads against the cupcakes which made him feel secure enough in playing the reserves. Nothing has really changed about his bench management. We’re simply struggling to beat the cupcakes now.

 

[sutomcat]

Not having an offensive weapon guard off the bench killed the 2013 team.

We needed a guard who could actually play a little off the bench.
We had Triche and MCW and Cooney as the 3rd guard. We had no 4th guard.
Why are we struggling to find a 4th quality guard.

We don’t have one this year.

It’s a pattern. I mean we got away with in 2013 because we had MCW and Triche. Those are studs you ride.

Why are so many guards flaming out here? When our assistants are all ex-guards.

Griffin can play guard...

 

[CousCuse]

The reason he used to play a deeper bench before conference play is that the talent differential afforded him big leads against the cupcakes which made him feel secure enough in playing the reserves. Nothing has really changed about his bench management. We’re simply struggling to beat the cupcakes now.

Not many cupcakes left anymore.

 

[721Comstock]

MCW appears to have settled in as like a 9th-10th man for a bad team. Dion is worse. Wes was a major bust and never really had a moment where he was a positive contributor at all. He got the chance to start for the team that drafted him top 5, sucked, and then he got a shot with the Lakers where he sucked.

I would LOVE to “never amount to anything” like ANY of these guys.

All four have earned TENS OF MILLIONS of dollars!
Playing a game that they love, at the highest level.

Even those times when MCW only got a 10 DAY contract, he got paid $99k.
In TEN DAYS.

That’s way more than the average American makes in an entire year.

Not everybody gets to be an All-Star, or even a starter. You need the role players too.
The fact that they’ve been able to keep sticking in the Association, when there’s a fresh crop of younger, talented guys coming in every year, speaks to their abilities and value

 

[Melancer46]

I would LOVE to “never amount to anything” like ANY of these guys.

All four have earned TENS OF MILLIONS of dollars!
Playing a game that they love, at the highest level.

Even those times when MCW only got a 10 DAY contract, he got paid $99k.
In TEN DAYS.

That’s way more than the average American makes in an entire year.

Not everybody gets to be an All-Star, or even a starter. You need the role players too.
The fact that they’ve been able to keep sticking in the Association, when there’s a fresh crop of younger, talented guys coming in every year, speaks to their abilities and value

That's not my point. Of course you and I would be thrilled beyond belief if we simply made it to the NBA. I'm sure after their careers are done, a 5 star recruit that made $50 million in the NBA while being a disappointment would laugh his way to the bank.

The point is that "Hey 5 star recruit, if you come to Syracuse, we can turn you into a fringe NBA player or maybe even a legitimate role player if you play your cards right" isn't going to work on anyone.

Of course making it to the NBA at all is an amazing accomplishment, but barely hanging on is not the goal of any of the high-level recruits we're seeking.

 

[Alsacs]

1. Girard
2. Boeheim
3. Griffin
4, Marek
5. Sidibe

Bench: 6. Guerrier, 7. Richmond, 8. Braswell, 9. Edwards should get some minutes.

Then the deep bench won’t play 10. Newton 11. Bol-Ajak 12. Anselem 13. Owens.

If Braswell isn’t getting minutes then why was he recruited? Edwards is depth in case of foul trouble for Marek and Sidibe.

None of the roster should average over 32 MPG.

 

[721Comstock]

That's not my point. Of course you and I would be thrilled beyond belief if we simply made it to the NBA. I'm sure after their careers are done, a 5 star recruit that made $50 million in the NBA while being a disappointment would laugh his way to the bank.

The point is that "Hey 5 star recruit, if you come to Syracuse, we can turn you into a fringe NBA player or maybe even a legitimate role player if you play your cards right" isn't going to work on anyone.

Of course making it to the NBA at all is an amazing accomplishment, but barely hanging on is not the goal of any of the high-level recruits we're seeking.

NONE of those guys was a 5* recruit.

Last true 5* guy we’ve had was Melo.
He’s done kinda OK for himself.

Those Top 10 guys that K and Cal get, are successful in the NBA because
- they were really, REALLY good at hoops before they ever got to college
- if you get multiple Top 10 guys nearly every year, odds are at least some will pan out.

The whole Kentucky & Duke “prepare guys for the NBA” is a crock.

JB’s guys who make it to the NBA are typically in the 25-75 range as ‘croots.
aka hardly a lock for NBA, at all.
Much less to be studs there

While we’d LOVE to get a Top 10 guy now and again (JB WON IT ALL the last time he did), there are a lot more guys in the 25-75 range, and a much better chance of getting them.

 

[Alsacs]

NONE of those guys was a 5* recruit.

Last true 5* guy we’ve had was Melo.
He’s done kinda OK for himself.

Those Top 10 guys that K and Cal get, are successful in the NBA because
- they were really, REALLY good at hoops before they ever got to college
- if you get multiple Top 10 guys nearly every year, odds are at least some will pan out.

The whole Kentucky & Duke “prepare guys for the NBA” is a crock.

JB’s guys who make it to the NBA are typically in the 25-75 range as ‘croots.
aka hardly a lock for NBA, at all.
Much less to be studs there

While we’d LOVE to get a Top 10 guy now and again (JB WON IT ALL the last time he did), there are a lot more guys in the 25-75 range, and a much better chance of getting them.

We have gotten 5 stars since Carmelo.
1. Donte Greene was a 5 star and top 10 recruit.
2. Paul Harris was a 5 star and top 15 recruit.
3. Jonny Flynn was a 5 star and top 20 recruit.
4. Dajaun Coleman was a 5 star and top 25 recruit.
5. Rak Christmas was a 5 star and top 25 recruit.
6. Chris McCollough was a 5 star and top 20 prospect.
7. Dion Waters was a 5 star and top 20 prospect.
8. Tyler Ennis was a 5 star and top 25 prospect.
9. MCW was a 5 star as well.

We have gotten 5 stars since Carmelo.
None of these guys popped in the NBA after they came here.

The point being made is this stuff gets negative recruited against us. It’s not a big deal IMO as Hopkins had talent last year and couldn’t put it together.

I think though JB does well managing talent in the college game when he has it.
The problem is we haven’t been getting that talent.

 

[Melancer46]

NONE of those guys was a 5* recruit.

Last true 5* guy we’ve had was Melo.
He’s done kinda OK for himself.

Those Top 10 guys that K and Cal get, are successful in the NBA because
- they were really, REALLY good at hoops before they ever got to college
- if you get multiple Top 10 guys nearly every year, odds are at least some will pan out.

The whole Kentucky & Duke “prepare guys for the NBA” is a crock.

JB’s guys who make it to the NBA are typically in the 25-75 range as ‘croots.
aka hardly a lock for NBA, at all.
Much less to be studs there

While we’d LOVE to get a Top 10 guy now and again (JB WON IT ALL the last time he did), there are a lot more guys in the 25-75 range, and a much better chance of getting them.

I understand all of that but none of that matters in the eyes of the recruits that people are annoyed we can't land.

 

[721Comstock]

I understand all of that but none of that matters in the eyes of the recruits that people are annoyed we can't land.

Agreed 144%.

We “landed” Dior.
Not the staff’s fault that he’s a diva and couldn’t remain eligible.

The trick is to land a top guy, who actually comes in and produces.
For us, that typically happens when we get in on a guy before he blows up - like Melo.
Maybe we’ll be lucky again and Benny is the next one? But even if he is “only” a CJ Fair type player, we’d all take that in a heartbeat.