Abrupt change in recruiting...

[IthacaMatt]

None of the last five national champions played more than 8 guys and three of them only really played 6 or 7. Most great college basketball teams don’t go too deep into their bench, especially when it matters.

7 or 8 is cool with me. 9 if our 9th guy is able to contribute in the ACC. I don’t like bench minutes just for the sake of bench minutes. I get why people disagree with me though

It's not how many play in your rotation for the NCAA tournament. It's a 31 game regular season, plus tournament championships. You can't play 6 or 7 guys for 35 or 40 games. They get injured. We have seen that for ourselves these past several seasons.

 

[IthacaMatt]

1. Girard
2. Boeheim
3. Griffin
4, Marek
5. Sidibe

Bench: 6. Guerrier, 7. Richmond, 8. Braswell, 9. Edwards should get some minutes.

Then the deep bench won’t play 10. Newton 11. Bol-Ajak 12. Anselem 13. Owens.

If Braswell isn’t getting minutes then why was he recruited? Edwards is depth in case of foul trouble for Marek and Sidibe.

None of the roster should average over 32 MPG.

"Depth" doesn't just magically appear, it has to be developed and these kids have to learn how to play at the college level.

Frankly, we should play all 3 of our centers at least until Christmas break (in a traditional schedule) instead of using Marek there, and you know, by February, two of them might be real contributors.

We don't have the guard depth this year, but in the old days when we had four guards, Boeheim would find time for the 4th guard until around January, even if it was only 8-10 minutes a game.

 

[Alsacs]

It's not how many play in your rotation for the NCAA tournament. It's a 31 game regular season, plus tournament championships. You can't play 6 or 7 guys for 35 or 40 games. They get injured. We have seen that for ourselves these past several seasons.

There should be a postseason rotation and a regular season rotation.

Obviously cutting it down in the tournament makes sense.
The problem with the short regular season rotation is if players struggle in individual games we have a smaller margin for error to win that game.
If you have depth then if for example Joe Girard struggles against NC State he can sit and the bench can pickup him up and you aren’t stuck playing a guy when he is struggling.

Our players aren’t superstars you play superstars thru their struggles. We haven’t been doing that here.

 

[Alsacs]

"Depth" doesn't just magically appear, it has to be developed and these kids have to learn how to play at the college level.

Frankly, we should play all 3 of our centers at least until Christmas break (in a traditional schedule) instead of using Marek there, and you know, by February, two of them might be real contributors.

We don't have the guard depth this year, but in the old days when we had four guards, Boeheim would find time for the 4th guard until around January, even if it was only 8-10 minutes a game.

It’s sad we even have to make these posts.
You are correct IMO.
Our HC treats a mid December game against North Florida like it’s a must win tournament game.

It’s an indictment on the talent level we currently have.

 

[IthacaMatt]

There should be a postseason rotation and a regular season rotation.

Obviously cutting it down in the tournament makes sense.
The problem with the short regular season rotation is if players struggle in individual games we have a smaller margin for error to win that game.
If you have depth then if for example Joe Girard struggles against NC State he can sit and the bench can pickup him up and you aren’t stuck playing a guy when he is struggling.

Our players aren’t superstars you play superstars thru their struggles. We haven’t been doing that here.

Yes. And this is what usually happens every year, but people only remember the short bench of 7 guys during the tournament.

Problem with that is, if you only play those 7 guys through the first 30 games, I guarantee to you that not all of them will be healthy at the end when you need them.

 

[Cuserulz]

It’s sad we even have to make these posts.
You are correct IMO.
Our HC treats a mid December game against North Florida like it’s a must win tournament game.

It’s an indictment on the talent level we currently have.

It's an indictment of the HC and his staff. If you only plan on playing or trying to develop 7-8 players, that's fine, then fill the rest of your roster with walk-ons because they're not playing anyhow.

 

[OrangeDW]

It's an indictment of the HC and his staff. If you only plan on playing or trying to develop 7-8 players, that's fine, then fill the rest of your roster with walk-ons because they're not playing anyhow.

Do you follow any other teams besides Syracuse?

 

[Cuserulz]

Do you follow any other teams besides Syracuse?

No

 

[OrangeDW]

No

Lots of teams play 7-8 guys in games that matter, at this level.

 

[Cuserulz]

Lots of teams play 7-8 guys in games that matter, at this level.

I understand that, but most teams try to develop a bench. Teams typically try to play more kids during the season and then shorten the bench for the Conference and NCAA Tournament. My initial post you quoted was laced with sarcasm.

 

[OrangeDW]

I understand that, but most teams try to develop a bench. Teams typically try to play more kids during the season and then shorten the bench for the Conference and NCAA Tournament. My initial post you quoted was laced with sarcasm.

Your initial post that I replied to made it seem like you’re a newbie sports fan, so I was trying to be nice.

 

[Cuserulz]

Your initial post that I replied to made it seem like you’re a newbie sports fan, so I was trying to be nice.

Nope, been around quite a while. Took an early retirement, due to Covid19, and now I have time on my hands. I'm just new to the board. I appreciate the being nice part though.

 

[OrangeDW]

Nope, been around quite a while. Took an early retirement, due to Covid19, and now I have time on my hands. I'm just new to the board. I appreciate the being nice part though.

Ok.

You weren’t really serious with the “fill the rest of the roster with walkons if you’re only going to play 7-8” right? Just frustration/exaggeration??

Not every player is patient enough to wait now, but being outside the rotation in big games for a year or two, and working your way into a key reserve/starter as an upperclassman is a pretty standard and normal progression for a lot of guys at a lot of schools.

 

[Cuserulz]

Ok.

You weren’t really serious with the “fill the rest of the roster with walkons if you’re only going to play 7-8” right? Just frustration/exaggeration??

Not every player is patient enough to wait now, but being outside the rotation in big games for a year or two, and working your way into a key reserve/starter as an upperclassman is a pretty standard and normal progression for a lot of guys at a lot of schools.

Nope, not serious about that. Just a touch of sarcasm.

 

[OrangeDW]

Nope, not serious about that. Just a touch of sarcasm.

Understood. But think...even if guys like Edwards/Anselem don’t play much this year(because we have senior starters at PF/C), they’ll look to Compete for the starting C job next year. If they’re good, their time will come, even if they aren’t really ready to help much this year.

 

[moqui]

Lots of teams play 7-8 guys in games that matter, at this level.

kenpom has been charting bench minutes since 2007. there is very little difference between syracuse and duke, for example, especially if you drop out the one year each was in the top 100

and although jay wright has always used his bench more often than us, his last 4 years his teams have ranked
320
302
302
345

 

[Alsacs]

kenpom has been charting bench minutes since 2007. there is very little difference between syracuse and duke, for example, especially if you drop out the one year each was in the top 100
View attachment 191328

and although jay wright has always used his bench more often than us, his last 4 years his teams have ranked
320
302
302
345

The fact you make the argument with Duke just shows you aren’t serious.

Duke GETS ELITE TALENT EVERY YEAR.

My god stop with these straw man argument that don’t prove anything. They are Baghdad Bob level of spin.

If you are bringing in Zion Williamsson, Jayson Tatum, Brandon Ingram level talent which Duke brings in multiple of each year NOBODY WOULD OPEN THEIR MOUTHES if Syracuse played those guys and had a short rotation.

We don’t recruit the level of talent Duke does. We shouldn’t be playing Trevor Cooney, Frank Howard, Tyus Battle, Buddy Boeheim level talent close to 40 MPG every game.

They aren’t close to the talent of the Duke guys.
If we got Duke talent every year do it.

That is the freaking point.

 

[OrangeDW]

The fact you make the argument with Duke just shows you aren’t serious.

Duke GETS ELITE TALENT EVERY YEAR.

My god stop with these straw man argument that don’t prove anything. They are Baghdad Bob level of spin.

If you are bringing in Zion Williamsson, Jayson Tatum, Brandon Ingram level talent which Duke brings in multiple of each year NOBODY WOULD OPEN THEIR MOUTHES if Syracuse played those guys and had a short rotation.

We don’t recruit the level of talent Duke does. We shouldn’t be playing Trevor Cooney, Frank Howard, Tyus Battle, Buddy Boeheim level talent close to 40 MPG every game.

They aren’t close to the talent of the Duke guys.
If we got Duke talent every year do it.

That is the freaking point.

Duke also has better guys riding the pine than we do too.

Imagine some Duke fans throwing a fit because some damn Howard Washington doesn’t get in enough. Lol.

 

[moqui]

Duke also has better guys riding the pine than we do too.

Imagine some Duke fans throwing a fit because some damn Howard Washington doesn’t get in enough. Lol.

it's narrative uber alles amongst a certain crew

 

[Alsacs]

it's narrative uber alles amongst a certain crew

Yeah that is it. More Baghdad Bob please.

Everything is fine here. Duke recruiting classes the last decade. You actually brought up bench minutes for Duke vs. Syracuse
Duke is bringing in elite talent. Syracuse isn’t the point you don’t get on purpose is that people here don’t care about short rotations if you are bringing in the talent Duke is.
Playing elite talent in short rotations make sense. Our talent is not elite. We are playing short rotations to grind and be mediocre in the regular season.
The shorter rotations hurt recruiting.
No elite shooting guard is going to consider us till the incumbent here is going to be a senior. Most good recruits aren’t going to sit on the bench and wait to play.

If we are recruiting Kyrie Irving, Austin Rivers, Jabari Parker, Jahill Okafor, Justice Winslow, Brandon Ingram, Jayson Tatum, Marvin Begley, RJ Barrett, Zion Williamson, Vernon Carey level talent you don’t sit them.

My god you either ignore the point being made or don’t get it.

Our short rotation used to be Jon Wallace, Carmelo, Hakim Warrick, GMac, Jonny Flynn, Michael Gbinije level talent.

The guys now playing superstar minutes aren’t superstars. If the bench can’t play that is on the staff.

 

[chugg21]

Yeah that is it. More Baghdad Bob please.

Everything is fine here. Duke recruiting classes the last decade. You actually brought up bench minutes for Duke vs. Syracuse
Duke is bringing in elite talent. Syracuse isn’t the point you don’t get on purpose is that people here don’t care about short rotations if you are bringing in the talent Duke is.
Playing elite talent in short rotations make sense. Our talent is not elite. We are playing short rotations to grind and be mediocre in the regular season.
The shorter rotations hurt recruiting.
No elite shooting guard is going to consider us till the incumbent here is going to be a senior. Most good recruits aren’t going to sit on the bench and wait to play.

If we are recruiting Kyrie Irving, Austin Rivers, Jabari Parker, Jahill Okafor, Justice Winslow, Brandon Ingram, Jayson Tatum, Marvin Begley, RJ Barrett, Zion Williamson, Vernon Carey level talent you don’t sit them.

My god you either ignore the point being made or don’t get it.

Our short rotation used to be Jon Wallace, Carmelo, Hakim Warrick, GMac, Jonny Flynn, Michael Gbinije level talent.

The guys now playing superstar minutes aren’t superstars. If the bench can’t play that is on the staff.

I dunno man, I'm pretty sure that a Freshman Girard shooting 34% from the field should be playing the same mpg as Soph All-American Tre Jones. Seems about right.

 

[IthacaMatt]

Do you follow any other teams besides Syracuse?

You don't have to. Just watch what the opposition coach does when they play against us. Notre Dame, North Carolina, Florida State, Louisville. They all play a lot of guys.
Some teams, like Duke for instance, don't. And that's fine. But we are no longer drawing the same caliber of raw talent that Duke is attracting.

 

[OrangeDW]

You don't have to. Just watch what the opposition coach does when they play against us. Notre Dame, North Carolina, Florida State, Louisville. They all play a lot of guys.
Some teams, like Duke for instance, don't. And that's fine. But we are no longer drawing the same caliber of raw talent that Duke is attracting.

ND played 7 last year.

2019-20 Notre Dame Fighting Irish Roster and Stats | College Basketball at Sports-Reference.com

 

[IthacaMatt]

Lots of teams play 7-8 guys in games that matter, at this level.

Yes, 'in the games that matter". You do need to think about who is going to make up your roster next year, and what happens if one of my 7 or 8 guys get hurt THIS year.

There are not 30 games "that matter" at the level you are talking about.

 

[OrangeDW]

Yes, 'in the games that matter". You do need to think about who is going to make up your roster next year, and what happens if one of my 7 or 8 guys get hurt THIS year.

There are not 30 games "that matter" at the level you are talking about.

There shouldn’t be.

As someone else(alsacs I think) pointed out...we’re losing more games, and more non conference games, and playing closer games in general so Boeheim doesn’t go as deep in those games.

Those years when we were winning 25+ and would cruise to mostly easy wins in the non conference and even in some BE games, you can go deeper without any worry.