ACC 2 Deep by Class

[Crusty]

There is no greater die hard fan base than that which is found on this board (me included). Each year we engage in overestimating the recruiting classes, rationalizing the on-field performances and project player development wearing our orange colored glasses. This is not a bad thing for we are fans - we are supposed to be nuts.

However, in a moment of clarity, I decided to look at various elements of the program more objectively. I looked at recruiting over the past 15-years and found no material differences. Recruiting has not materially changed. especially when compared to our ACC peers.
Babers clases average 75.16
Marrone 74.67
Shafer 74.08

As we all know, Dino has had some big recruiting failures at QB and both lines. He deserves credit for changing coordinators and trying to fix recruiting as well as trying to find a defense that can work in the ACC. While I am not that enthusiastic about the 3-3-5, I am impresed with White and his recruits. Hopefully, my fears will be proven ill founded. Here is his email - awhite10 - I am seding him a supporting email - suggest you do the same.

Much has been said about how young our defense is (which it is). But I wondered about the youth of our competitors in the ACC. The table below is from the Depth Charts taken a couple of weeks ago. Bear in mind some teams list ties for the second team, which I have recorded as backups.

As the table shows, we started 5 freshmen (3 true and 2 RS). The next most was FSU with 3 and Clemson had 2. BC, GTU, L'ville, Miami, NC and Va Tech had no freshmen starters.

2nd teams are a different story.
We had 5 frosh backups, while Miami had 16; Clemson and Duke had 9; NC State had 8; NC and Virginia 7;.

You can judge for yourself but it would appear that any youth advantage we might enjoy may not be as great as we might hope.
Certainly, our defense has great potential, however, none of our kids in the 2-deep are linemen.

Only Clemson (2) and Virginia (1) started any freshmen defensive linemen. As for backups, Clemson (2), Duke (3), FSU (1), L'ville (1), Miami (10), NCS (1) NC (3), Pitt (1) and Syracuse zero.

This should be a cuationary tale for our hopes for DLine help from the incoming class. Not happening for at least another year.

I will take a look at the offense this weekend, but I fear that we are at least a couple of years away from a real competitive season. AND that depends greatly on the development of a starting quarteback when TD leaves.

Can we go bowling next year? Hard to say without some talented transfers on both lines. If we can't fill the huge gaps, probably not. 2022 should be the year we find out if we are on the right track.

For those of you losing hope here is a great video about Kansas State .

LGO!

 

[OrangeinBoston]

There is no greater die hard fan base than that which is found on this board (me included). Each year we engage in overestimating the recruiting classes, rationalizing the on-field performances and project player development wearing our orange colored glasses. This is not a bad thing for we are fans - we are supposed to be nuts.

However, in a moment of clarity, I decided to look at various elements of the program more objectively. I looked at recruiting over the past 15-years and found no material differences. Recruiting has not materially changed. especially when compared to our ACC peers.
Babers clases average 75.16
Marrone 74.67
Shafer 74.08

As we all know, Dino has had some big recruiting failures at QB and both lines. He deserves credit for changing coordinators and trying to fix recruiting as well as trying to find a defense that can work in the ACC. While I am not that enthusiastic about the 3-3-5, I am impresed with White and his recruits. Hopefully, my fears will be proven ill founded. Here is his email - awhite10 - I am seding him a supporting email - suggest you do the same.

Much has been said about how young our defense is (which it is). But I wondered about the youth of our competitors in the ACC. The table below is from the Depth Charts taken a couple of weeks ago. Bear in mind some teams list ties for the second team, which I have recorded as backups.
View attachment 192215
As the table shows, we started 5 freshmen (3 true and 2 RS). The next most was FSU with 3 and Clemson had 2. BC, GTU, L'ville, Miami, NC and Va Tech had no freshmen starters.

2nd teams is a different story.
We had 5 frosh backups, while Miami had 16; Clemson and Duke had 9; NC State had 8; NC and Virginia 7;.

You can judge for yourself but it would appear that any youth advantage we might enjoy may not be as great as we might hope.
Certainly, our defense has great potential, however, none of our kids in the 2-deep are linemen.

Only Clemson (2) and Virginia (1) started any freshmen defensive linemen. As for backups, Clemson (2), Duke (3), FSU (1), L'ville (1), Miami (10), NCS (1) NC (3), Pitt (1) and Syracuse zero.

This should be a cuationary tale for our hopes for DLine help from the incoming class. Not happening for at least another year.

I will take a look at the offense this weekend, but I fear that we are at least a couple of years away from a real competitive season. AND that depends greatly on the development of a starting quarteback when TD leaves.

Can we go bowling next year? Hard to say witrhout some talented transfers on both lines. If we can't fill the huge gaps, probably not. 2022 should be the year we find out if we are on the right track.
For those of you losing hope here is a gr, then you are not geat video about Kansas State .

LGO!

That should forever put to rest the stuff about not playing true Freshmen. If you don't have Freshmen contributing immediately, then you are not getting it done on the recruiting front. Especially, if you are where we are talent wise.

Dino MUST get 2 OL and 2 DT via the transfer/JUCO route. This is an absolute must to save next season and likely his job.

 

[Trueblue25]

I bet the vast majority of these contributors are not dtackles or OL. You rarely, no matter who you are, get linemen ready day 1.

 

[OrangeinBoston]

I bet the vast majority of these contributors are not dtackles or OL. You rarely, no matter who you are, get linemen ready day 1.

Right. That's why Transfer/JUCO is os important.

 

[PAcuse]

I bet the vast majority of these contributors are not dtackles or OL. You rarely, no matter who you are, get linemen ready day 1.

The further you are from the ball the easier it is to play from Day 1 is what I've always heard.

 

[TheCusian]

That should forever put to rest the stuff about not playing true Freshmen. If you don't have Freshmen contributing immediately, then you are not getting it done on the recruiting front. Especially, if you are where we are talent wise.

Dino MUST get 2 OL and 2 DT via the transfer/JUCO route. This is an absolute must to save next season and likely his job.

This is a weird takeaway.

Freshman play or don’t play for all kinds of reasons. Hanna wasn’t taking Cisco’s job no matter how talented we was for example.

Coaches want to keep their jobs. They play the players who will win them games.*

* unless it’s a weird arse year, then they might think they have more leeway to get young guys more run

 

[OrangeXtreme]

There should be plenty of DL/OT fish in the transfer sea.

Whether or not Dino and the staff can "recruit" these kids to come here remains to be seen.

 

[CbusCuse]

There is no greater die hard fan base than that which is found on this board (me included). Each year we engage in overestimating the recruiting classes, rationalizing the on-field performances and project player development wearing our orange colored glasses. This is not a bad thing for we are fans - we are supposed to be nuts.

However, in a moment of clarity, I decided to look at various elements of the program more objectively. I looked at recruiting over the past 15-years and found no material differences. Recruiting has not materially changed. especially when compared to our ACC peers.
Babers clases average 75.16
Marrone 74.67
Shafer 74.08

As we all know, Dino has had some big recruiting failures at QB and both lines. He deserves credit for changing coordinators and trying to fix recruiting as well as trying to find a defense that can work in the ACC. While I am not that enthusiastic about the 3-3-5, I am impresed with White and his recruits. Hopefully, my fears will be proven ill founded. Here is his email - awhite10 - I am seding him a supporting email - suggest you do the same.

Much has been said about how young our defense is (which it is). But I wondered about the youth of our competitors in the ACC. The table below is from the Depth Charts taken a couple of weeks ago. Bear in mind some teams list ties for the second team, which I have recorded as backups.
View attachment 192215
As the table shows, we started 5 freshmen (3 true and 2 RS). The next most was FSU with 3 and Clemson had 2. BC, GTU, L'ville, Miami, NC and Va Tech had no freshmen starters.

2nd teams is a different story.
We had 5 frosh backups, while Miami had 16; Clemson and Duke had 9; NC State had 8; NC and Virginia 7;.

You can judge for yourself but it would appear that any youth advantage we might enjoy may not be as great as we might hope.
Certainly, our defense has great potential, however, none of our kids in the 2-deep are linemen.

Only Clemson (2) and Virginia (1) started any freshmen defensive linemen. As for backups, Clemson (2), Duke (3), FSU (1), L'ville (1), Miami (10), NCS (1) NC (3), Pitt (1) and Syracuse zero.

This should be a cuationary tale for our hopes for DLine help from the incoming class. Not happening for at least another year.

I will take a look at the offense this weekend, but I fear that we are at least a couple of years away from a real competitive season. AND that depends greatly on the development of a starting quarteback when TD leaves.

Can we go bowling next year? Hard to say without some talented transfers on both lines. If we can't fill the huge gaps, probably not. 2022 should be the year we find out if we are on the right track.

For those of you losing hope here is a great video about Kansas State .

LGO!

Interesting data. Thanks for the time spent. Does anyone know if our true freshman this year still get 4 games in 2021 before that year counts as a season played. I'm guessing that it won't matter for most as that would mean a player is here for 6 years. That is probably unlikely to happen for most. Will only possibly be a factor for some of these players; Kinsler, Mahar, Barclay, Ja'vontae Williams, Limeux, Markiewicz, and Petry.

 

[LeMoyneCuse]

That should forever put to rest the stuff about not playing true Freshmen. If you don't have Freshmen contributing immediately, then you are not getting it done on the recruiting front. Especially, if you are where we are talent wise.

This is 100% the wrong takeaway.

Wake Forest has a low ceiling and has been consistently not bad for the last few years because they're not relying on freshmen.

BC is feisty this year in part because Hafley didn't have to blow up the team and can play upperclassmen.

NC State develops defensive linemen, and seems to do it year after year.

UNC has been recruiting out of their minds and is still relying on upperclassmen.

 

[Newhouser]

Good data - I think the fact that we have to play so many Frosh is a bad sign for a program of our stature. Sadly I also don't think just because we are getting PT for our young guys that they will be better as Sophs than Frosh on our competitors who sat.

 

[PhatOrange]

We’ve been starting 5 true freshman and as many as 6.

Just a quick scan and our current 2-deep is 17 freshmen and redshirt freshman. 15 of them are on the field regularly. I don't know how you derive 10 as the total two deep.

11 True Freshman (Morgan/Tex, Tucker, Barron, Alford, Iloa, Wax, Thompson, Carter, Hanna, LaBrosse, Atkinson and Pena)

5 Redshirt Freshman (Courtney Jackson, Linton, GWilliams, Greenwood, Cole)

Starts - True Freshman
QB Morgan - 2
*RB Tucker - 5
*MLB Wax - 1 (replaced Arku as the MLB starter last weekend) (1st tFR starter at MLB since Clifton Smith ??)
*SLB Thompson - 5
*SS Carter - 8
*ROV Hanna - 6
*KR Pena

Starts - Redshirt Freshman
SLB Linton - 1
*CB GWilliams - 9
*FS Greenwood - 5
RB JJordan - 3

*designates current starter

We also start and play a handful of true sophomores. They don't count in the numbers but they're young just the same.

 

[LeMoyneCuse]

We’ve been starting 5 true freshman and as many as 6.

Just a quick scan and our current 2-deep is 17 freshmen and redshirt freshman. 15 of them are on the field regularly.

11 True Freshman (Morgan/Tex, Tucker, Barron, Alford, Iloa, Wax, Thompson, Carter, Hanna, LaBrosse, Atkinson and Pena)

5 Redshirt Freshman (Courtney Jackson, Linton, GWilliams, Greenwood, Cole)

Starts - True Freshman
QB Morgan - 2
*RB Tucker - 5
*MLB Wax - 1 (replaced Arku as the MLB starter last weekend) (1st tFR starter at MLB since Clifton Smith ??)
*SLB Thompson - 5
*SS Carter - 8
*ROV Hanna - 6
*KR Pena

Starts - Redshirt Freshman
SLB Linton - 1
*CB GWilliams - 9
*FS Greenwood - 5
RB JJordan - 3

*designates current starter

We also start and play a handful of true sophomores. They don't count in the numbers but they're young just the same.

To me, this doesn't say you need to recruit impact freshmen. This says the staff did a lousy job of recruiting / developing impactful players 2 + 3 years ago.

 

[PhatOrange]

To me, this doesn't say you need to recruit impact freshmen. This says the staff did a lousy job of recruiting / developing impactful players 2 + 3 years ago.

You blame the staff without analyzing the why. That time period had a large amount of attrition from transfers and medical DQs. However,

when you look at the data and the numbers the real failure here is the utter lack of impact skill guys in the upper classes. There’s not one and it shows on the field.

 

[SU94]

To me, this doesn't say you need to recruit impact freshmen. This says the staff did a lousy job of recruiting / developing impactful players 2 + 3 years ago.

DIno's first 3 recruiting classes were ... let's say "poor." (and I don't blame him at all for his initial class, which he had 6 weeks to retain or recruit for). Too many misses, tons of injuries (esp. on the O & D Lines). I believe that things have improved the last couple of years, but only time will tell.

 

[LeMoyneCuse]

You blame the staff without analyzing the why. That time period had a large amount of attrition from transfers and medical DQs.
However, when you look at the data and the numbers the real failure here is the utter lack of impact skill guys in the upper classes. There’s not one and it shows on the field.

That's exactly what I was trying to say. One can blame bad luck / bad fits as part of the problem, but attrition is also a sign of not-great recruiting for a program as middling as Syracuse.

 

[All4SU]

The fact that Clemson or even FSU or Miami are starting Freshmen or have them in their 2-deep is not as significant. Those teams are bringing in loads of 4 and five star kids. What’s more significant his how our numbers appear relative to out current peer programs - BC, Pitt, GT, NCSt, UNC etc.

Our three star kids need extra games and experience to develop. So getting them on the field early helps us more long term than not being able to do so.

 

[PhatOrange]

That's exactly what I was trying to say. One can blame bad luck / bad fits as part of the problem, but attrition is also a sign of not-great recruiting for a program as middling as Syracuse.

We all know the QB issues but they've absolutely failed to recruit any impact WRs and RBs. Seems a few kids we thought would be those guys can't stay healthy - Hendrix.

By the way, I'll repost this really insightful article from October on Syracuse recruiting from Asil Mulbah's perspective, but the first kid he listed as 'the one that got away' was WR Josh Palmer who's been a multi year starter at Tennessee. He also mentions QB Brock Purdy and that they went with Chance Amie instead. Wild how things like that can completely change the course of a program. Seems like they viewed Amie as having a higher ceiling - a better version of Dungey was the quote. Amie if I had to guess just really popped off the page with his blend of athleticism and QB skills, while Purdy was the steady workhorse who while a good QB didn't really wow people. In retrospect Mulbah mentions that Amie just wasn't a good cultural fit for a small private school in the North. It's something that can't be overlooked when recruiting to Syracuse. You have to find good fits (which is why some of these kids might end up bailing out of here.) Can't imagine if we had Purdy (and Palmer) how different our program would be.

 

[GoSU96]

There is no greater die hard fan base than that which is found on this board (me included). Each year we engage in overestimating the recruiting classes, rationalizing the on-field performances and project player development wearing our orange colored glasses. This is not a bad thing for we are fans - we are supposed to be nuts.

However, in a moment of clarity, I decided to look at various elements of the program more objectively. I looked at recruiting over the past 15-years and found no material differences. Recruiting has not materially changed. especially when compared to our ACC peers.
Babers clases average 75.16
Marrone 74.67
Shafer 74.08

As we all know, Dino has had some big recruiting failures at QB and both lines. He deserves credit for changing coordinators and trying to fix recruiting as well as trying to find a defense that can work in the ACC. While I am not that enthusiastic about the 3-3-5, I am impresed with White and his recruits. Hopefully, my fears will be proven ill founded. Here is his email - awhite10 - I am seding him a supporting email - suggest you do the same.

Much has been said about how young our defense is (which it is). But I wondered about the youth of our competitors in the ACC. The table below is from the Depth Charts taken a couple of weeks ago. Bear in mind some teams list ties for the second team, which I have recorded as backups.
View attachment 192215
As the table shows, we started 5 freshmen (3 true and 2 RS). The next most was FSU with 3 and Clemson had 2. BC, GTU, L'ville, Miami, NC and Va Tech had no freshmen starters.

2nd teams is a different story.
We had 5 frosh backups, while Miami had 16; Clemson and Duke had 9; NC State had 8; NC and Virginia 7;.

You can judge for yourself but it would appear that any youth advantage we might enjoy may not be as great as we might hope.
Certainly, our defense has great potential, however, none of our kids in the 2-deep are linemen.

Only Clemson (2) and Virginia (1) started any freshmen defensive linemen. As for backups, Clemson (2), Duke (3), FSU (1), L'ville (1), Miami (10), NCS (1) NC (3), Pitt (1) and Syracuse zero.

This should be a cuationary tale for our hopes for DLine help from the incoming class. Not happening for at least another year.

I will take a look at the offense this weekend, but I fear that we are at least a couple of years away from a real competitive season. AND that depends greatly on the development of a starting quarteback when TD leaves.

Can we go bowling next year? Hard to say without some talented transfers on both lines. If we can't fill the huge gaps, probably not. 2022 should be the year we find out if we are on the right track.

For those of you losing hope here is a great video about Kansas State .

LGO!

Some good stuff there. This year is an investment in the future.

 

[syrBossHogg]

Good breakdown, I'd be curious to see if there's data out there regarding how many snaps each freshman has played. It makes sense that Clemson and Miami would be playing a lot of freshman since a) the players they recruit are highly rated and b) those teams are blowing out some teams and thus getting freshman in garbage time.

 

[LeMoyneCuse]

By the way, I'll repost this really insightful article from October on Syracuse recruiting from Asil Mulbah perspective

In retrospect Mulbah mentions that Amie just wasn't a good cultural fit for a small private school in the North.

Looking forward to that repost - missed it the first time.

And the Amie cultural fit thing - a thought based on nothing, but that seems like a drawback to the Babers' approach of casting a wide net of offers and seeing what comes up.

 

[Geode]

Just a quick scan and our current 2-deep is 17 freshmen and redshirt freshman. 15 of them are on the field regularly. I don't know how you derive 10 as the total two deep.

The OP was only looking at the defense. Your estimates included both O & D.

 

[Scooch]

There is no greater die hard fan base than that which is found on this board (me included). Each year we engage in overestimating the recruiting classes, rationalizing the on-field performances and project player development wearing our orange colored glasses. This is not a bad thing for we are fans - we are supposed to be nuts.

However, in a moment of clarity, I decided to look at various elements of the program more objectively. I looked at recruiting over the past 15-years and found no material differences. Recruiting has not materially changed. especially when compared to our ACC peers.
Babers clases average 75.16
Marrone 74.67
Shafer 74.08

Great post. Your comments about how folks overrate our recruiting classes is spot on. I can't remember the last time I didn't read something to the effect of "this incoming class is really an improvement!/fills our biggest needs!/is bigger and faster than we've seen in a long time!". And then inevitably, people gripe about talent deficiencies in the upper classmen (who were hyped as being an improvement a few years prior).

I would even argue that, using the numbers you provided, our recruiting may be getting worse, relatively speaking. Marrone was competing in the old, watered down, Big East. Babers is competing against a totally different class of program, and has the benefit of a sizable investment in facilities and staff salaries.

 

[PhatOrange]

The OP was only looking at the defense. Your estimates included both O & D.

thanks missed that.

 

[PhatOrange]

Looking forward to that repost - missed it the first time.

Here's the article. It's subscription, if you can't read it let me know. Best most insightful article (from the horses mouth) I've read in a while.

Mulbah Q&A: On Syracuse football recruiting and the ones that got away

Asil Mulbah is the former director of recruiting at Syracuse.

www.syracuse.com

 

[Crusty]

We’ve been starting 5 true freshman and as many as 6.

Just a quick scan and our current 2-deep is 17 freshmen and redshirt freshman. 15 of them are on the field regularly. I don't know how you derive 10 as the total two deep.

11 True Freshman (Morgan/Tex, Tucker, Barron, Alford, Iloa, Wax, Thompson, Carter, Hanna, LaBrosse, Atkinson and Pena)

5 Redshirt Freshman (Courtney Jackson, Linton, GWilliams, Greenwood, Cole)

Starts - True Freshman
QB Morgan - 2
*RB Tucker - 5
*MLB Wax - 1 (replaced Arku as the MLB starter last weekend) (1st tFR starter at MLB since Clifton Smith ??)
*SLB Thompson - 5
*SS Carter - 8
*ROV Hanna - 6
*KR Pena

Starts - Redshirt Freshman
SLB Linton - 1
*CB GWilliams - 9
*FS Greenwood - 5
RB JJordan - 3

*designates current starter

We also start and play a handful of true sophomores. They don't count in the numbers but they're young just the same.

My data is for defense only.