ACC, PAC-12, and BIG alliance / conference realignment | Page 266 | Syracusefan.com

ACC, PAC-12, and BIG alliance / conference realignment

Cuse1055 said:
Pretty sure I saw a new Syracuse-themed tailgating beer from a local brewery at Wegmans the other day.
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Yeah those have been around a bit. They even had the Loud House IPA sold exclusively at the Dome from Southern Tier, I believe. This will be an actual licensed product with logos, although not necessarily a new special beer.
 
Orangezoo said:
I think you are thinking about this too much in a vacuum vs out in the open marketplace. It's likely today that the payouts are too high and unsustainable. Then pair that with population demographics across the country. It's not so much an arithmetic calculation over time. It's not just fans of programs left out of the top tiers. Casual fans of the top tiers will also step away as it becomes the NFL B league and stick with following pro leagues.

College fb powers, unlike the pros, are not necessarily located in larger marketplaces. That matters when you are modeling this out over time.
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An additional factor-- the pro leagues, especially the NBA, developing their own minor league systems.

Why have top prospects head off to college and get distracted (if only slightly) by academic duties? Send them to the G League where they can concentrate totally on their game all the time. Not to mention be trained by qualified coaches of your own choosing.
 
pokercuse08 said:
It's a travesty that there's not a licensed orange IPA for Syracuse. They should also have a 'Melo caramel stout and a Jim Brown ale. Those are the layups. Get something else named after Boeheim too. Maybe a sour beer?
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Like the sour reference, but Boeheimian Pilsner is the first that came to my mind
 
pokercuse08 said:
As I said, if the #3 conference has enough strong programs, the B1G and SEC won't be able to fully break away and legitimately claim a national champion. If the #3 conference does not have enough strong programs, then they will be able to fully break away and legitimately claim a national champion.

In the scenario where the Big 12 is the #3 conference, the ACC got raided to shreds and the Big 12 got the leftovers - hence it is not going to have any strong programs to interfere with the legitimacy of the B1G/SEC champion being the national champion. In a scenario where the ACC stays #3 it is possible that it will have enough good teams left to force its way in.
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#3 won't have enough strong programs so your point is moot. How does adding the Califord Express now keep FSU and Clemson in the ACC? The B18/SEC will be able to offer $50M more per year.

If there is a breakaway IMO it will be the B18, SEC, and whomever wins out as #3 (ACC or B12). But why even breakaway? The B18/SEC should have 75%+ of the playoff bids. That is plenty. Not breaking away allows for 7 home games and 2 cupcakes OOC. Just the B18/SEC breaking away means 6 home games and 0 cupcakes OOC. TV might like that but the schools and their fans will hate it.

But back to the original point, what difference does it make if the ACC or B12 wins as #3? And how does adding the Califord Express change things?
 
JimBoston said:
Think about this, if I asked everyone here if adding Stanford/Cal/SMU would enhance and stabilize the ACC, I would have been laughed at. Stanford is very good at sports outside of football and basketball, and Cal has not been good at football or basketball. SMU? No fanbase, but deep pocket donors. Did I mention the three schools were 14-23 in football and 27-70 in basketball last year? What do these three schools bring to the ACC?

And, why would Stanford and Cal , top academic schools, want to have their non-revenue sport teams travel all over the country?

If I were the ACC leadership, I would add USF and UConn. These adds would make the ACC the top conference in Florida with 3 teams (think UCF can recruit against USF if they are in the ACC?) and UConn to restore the ACC as the top basketball conference, solidify the Northeast, and create rivals for Syracuse and Boston College which are desperately needed. And, if the ACC implodes, the ACC would have a Florida presence with USF, a strong Northeast presence, and would probably be the #1 or #2 basketball conference.
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FSU would get even more fired up to leave ASAP if the ACC were to add USF or UConn. And FSU leaving almost guarantees Come-on leaving. And that pair gones almost forces even UNC to explore leaving

What does the ACC lack that has kept its TV revenue down vis a vis the SEC and BT? Larger state flagship and land grant schools that invested big in football many decades ago. UConn and USF would both hurt that for the ACC, though USF is large and surrounded by an ark full of talent.

So as we cannot now add any large state flagships and land grants that have already well funded football programs, how can the ACC increase its revenue? Well, it can do so through the ACCN getting into new areas as a 'home' network. CA and TX are both very large states, so having members in this states can increase ACCN value. And being in this states also puts the ACC in 2 new states filled with football talent, and that may help all ACC members land decent CA and TX talent and thereby better the quality of the league.
 
HRE Otto IV said:
#3 won't have enough strong programs so your point is moot. How does adding the Califord Express now keep FSU and Clemson in the ACC? The B18/SEC will be able to offer $50M more per year.

If there is a breakaway IMO it will be the B18, SEC, and whomever wins out as #3 (ACC or B12). But why even breakaway? The B18/SEC should have 75%+ of the playoff bids. That is plenty. Not breaking away allows for 7 home games and 2 cupcakes OOC. Just the B18/SEC breaking away means 6 home games and 0 cupcakes OOC. TV might like that but the schools and their fans will hate it.

But back to the original point, what difference does it make if the ACC or B12 wins as #3? And how does adding the Califord Express change things?
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What will keep FSU/Clemson in the ACC is lack of a dance partner. It takes 2 to tango.

The tweet from a couple of pages ago makes sense to me: The pecking order for B1G and SEC is ND, then a couple of teams from the states of VA and NC, and finally FSU/Clemson.
 
longtimefan said:
An additional factor-- the pro leagues, especially the NBA, developing their own minor league systems.

Why have top prospects head off to college and get distracted (if only slightly) by academic duties? Send them to the G League where they can concentrate totally on their game all the time. Not to mention be trained by qualified coaches of your own choosing.
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Another factor that may increasingly affect college football is the number of young parents who will be steering their children from playing football because of CTE. A number of high schools have turned to 7 man football because of the lack of students trying out. Heck even young NFL pros are opting out of contracts retiring early because of these worries.

 
Cuse#1 said:
Lol That is exactly what they don't need. You think Florida state's b******* now I have? Why don't you add Miami to that list?
Listen, if they do what they're supposed to do. Listen to the listen to ESPN because the SPS. Me has in trouble right now. And they're not just gonna fault. ESPN will take care of us. It's already been shown that there will be a slush fund from these schools. Coming in for pretty much nothing and guess who gets that money. The freaking teams in our conference. If they want to, they can use that performance aspect. Which could, which would give us fss? You or whoever wants more money, so this is just. Stupidity, they sound like hypocrites. Now depend offer more money, and it's still complaining And ACC network will make a lot more money because of the lack of coverage. On the West Coast, San Francisco Oakland area is tremendously huge. Google all the money they're like. I can think of so many good parts of this deal. There's no more travel problem cause. All of those other programs are not coming in. It's just football and basketball. So what the h*** do they have to lose? I mean, SMU obviously has a lot of support in Dallas. That's another huge tailor which state set a lot of views which h CCI already has a s*** load which would help while potential as since as you see ACC merger.
That's what should be entombed about not South Florida. Or whatever b******* school that was brought up to replace AI brand soul. In effect, they wouldn't be replaced on it all. It would just be another full s*** School worse than Stanford and cow. So it makes no sense again, and there won't be a replacement man if that happened, that would be the beginning of that.

One more thing I read something that you &c will not leave. They are one of the 14th that rejected the last deal. But, you know, they're all in on ACC. What are you kidding me! I guess all in ACC means get the *** give me the *** out of here. Because I Don't understand that explanation whatsoever.
. ACC has taken away every negative of this deal and brought in just about as many positives as there ever could be. So obviously there's nothing to lose so do it. I mean, I'm sure you'll sell about Syracuse to get 4 2 9 million more a year. Which is the it's either the low or the high of what they could make with everything I just mentioned.
Let's go back to the biggies so we can eat. So we can make naughty 9 million all together for our department. Yeah, that's good, that's the way to go.
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The Game GIF by Paramount+
 
HRE Otto IV said:
#3 won't have enough strong programs so your point is moot. How does adding the Califord Express now keep FSU and Clemson in the ACC? The B18/SEC will be able to offer $50M more per year.
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For now it adds money to distribute based on success, which makes it more palatable for FSU and Clemson to stay. Over time, it gives SMU a chance to elevate itself and further make the case that the ACC has contenders. This could all leave the door open to uneven payouts in the conference, closing the gap enough for FSU and Clemson to stay and get a bigger cut of the revenue in exchange for keeping the conference alive with playoff access.

Or they go, but SMU stays and the ACC finds another sleeping giant in the next 10 years, and maybe manages to still have 2-3 contenders when the dust settles.

None of these things are super likely, but they're all the ACC has to pin its hopes to - and since the chances aren't 0%, trying beats sitting around waiting to get raided and killed as a major conference.

HRE Otto IV said:
If there is a breakaway IMO it will be the B18, SEC, and whomever wins out as #3 (ACC or B12). But why even breakaway? The B18/SEC should have 75%+ of the playoff bids. That is plenty.
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There is no such thing as "plenty" or enough. This is naked capitalism, all there is is MORE MORE MORE. Any analysis that pins its hopes on the big dogs settling for "plenty" is just pie in the sky thinking.
HRE Otto IV said:
But back to the original point, what difference does it make if the ACC or B12 wins as #3? And how does adding the Califord Express change things?
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Go re-read my posts, I'm not going to keep typing the same thing out in detail for you to skip it and ask the same question. The short answer is the quality of the #3 league will make a difference in whether or not the #3 league can prevent a full breakaway. I've typed out the long answer for you already.
 
longtimefan said:
What will keep FSU/Clemson in the ACC is lack of a dance partner. It takes 2 to tango.

The tweet from a couple of pages ago makes sense to me: The pecking order for B1G and SEC is ND, then a couple of teams from the states of VA and NC, and finally FSU/Clemson.
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And if that is the case then the ACC expanding now has no impact on that, correct? Why would there be urgency to make a move? If the ACC is not gutted, it will be #3 as is. Expanding now will not change that.

If the ACC wanted to be a national All academic conference then it would be wise to expand now. In that case the ACC would be able to go to 20 in a few years. Then maybe 24 in time.

But back to the point, expanding now isn't going to save the ACC and it isn't going to prevent death. What will prevent death is the B18 and SEC not wanting to grow any further. Which makes any move by the ACC not a driving factor.
 
pokercuse08 said:
For now it adds money to distribute based on success, which makes it more palatable for FSU and Clemson to stay. Over time, it gives SMU a chance to elevate itself and further make the case that the ACC has contenders. This could all leave the door open to uneven payouts in the conference, closing the gap enough for FSU and Clemson to stay and get a bigger cut of the revenue in exchange for keeping the conference alive with playoff access.

Or they go, but SMU stays and the ACC finds another sleeping giant in the next 10 years, and maybe manages to still have 2-3 contenders when the dust settles.

None of these things are super likely, but they're all the ACC has to pin its hopes to - and since the chances aren't 0%, trying beats sitting around waiting to get raided and killed as a major conference.


There is no such thing as "plenty" or enough. This is naked capitalism, all there is is MORE MORE MORE. Any analysis that pins its hopes on the big dogs settling for "plenty" is just pie in the sky thinking.


Go re-read my posts, I'm not going to keep typing the same thing out in detail for you to skip it and ask the same question. The short answer is the quality of the #3 league will make a difference in whether or not the #3 league can prevent a full breakaway. I've typed out the long answer for you already.
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HOW???!

How does a good #3 prevent a breakaway? Just saying it, does not make it so. You have typed nothing thus far. You have provided no supporting logic. You just say "it does." And if you need a strong #3 (which is silly) why does it matter if it is the B12 or ACC? If FSU goes to the B12, is it not the same thing?

The B18 and SEC can breakaway now. What do they care if FSU is the best team in the lower division? Do you think Alabama is impacted in anyway by North Dakota State's success? Clemson can win 10 FBS titles in a row and no one in the P2 sub division will bat an eye.

Capitalism is not pure greed, so you are misusing the word. Also these moves haven't been pure greed. The B18 would not have added some of the teams they did, and they would be looking to vote out some of the current members. That will not happen. They also won't go away from even distribution.

If there was pure greed like you claim, the Top 20 or so schools would break away from the B18 and SEC. If that were to happen, it would not matter one iota how strong the ACC was. Being the 3rd best conference wouldn't stop a Super league from forming. You are rearranging the deck chairs here.

Uneven payouts should be a NON factor. I am sure that FSU and Clemson would like that, but the other dozen teams in the league have ZERO incentive to agree. What incentive does Wake have to prop up FSU and Clemson while making their own team worse? Why even be in the ACC making $15M a year when you can be in the B12 and make $30M a year with even distribution?
 
pokercuse08 said:
For now it adds money to distribute based on success, which makes it more palatable for FSU and Clemson to stay. Over time, it gives SMU a chance to elevate itself and further make the case that the ACC has contenders. This could all leave the door open to uneven payouts in the conference, closing the gap enough for FSU and Clemson to stay and get a bigger cut of the revenue in exchange for keeping the conference alive with playoff access.

Or they go, but SMU stays and the ACC finds another sleeping giant in the next 10 years, and maybe manages to still have 2-3 contenders when the dust settles.

None of these things are super likely, but they're all the ACC has to pin its hopes to - and since the chances aren't 0%, trying beats sitting around waiting to get raided and killed as a major conference.


There is no such thing as "plenty" or enough. This is naked capitalism, all there is is MORE MORE MORE. Any analysis that pins its hopes on the big dogs settling for "plenty" is just pie in the sky thinking.


Go re-read my posts, I'm not going to keep typing the same thing out in detail for you to skip it and ask the same question. The short answer is the quality of the #3 league will make a difference in whether or not the #3 league can prevent a full breakaway. I've typed out the long answer for you already.
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The great probelm with the often very silly and almost always childish FSU fans is that they assume that when the lose to a Wake Forest, which has about as many total students as FSU has freshman girls, is that losing to 'inferiors' in the ACC proves that FSU football is far too big and powerful to be stuck in the lowly ACC. Sop if SMU were to beta FSU in football in back to balk years, that would further persuade FSU fans that FSU is triply too big and powerful to be in the ACC.

In many FSU fans are worse sports and more unrealistic than Texas fans. They just have maybe 1/10th the money and 1/15th the political power. So they have about a dozen chips on each shoulder.
 
WoadBlue said:
The great probelm with the often very silly and almost always childish FSU fans is that they assume that when the lose to a Wake Forest, which has about as many total students as FSU has freshman girls, is that losing to 'inferiors' in the ACC proves that FSU football is far too big and powerful to be stuck in the lowly ACC. Sop if SMU were to beta FSU in football in back to balk years, that would further persuade FSU fans that FSU is triply too big and powerful to be in the ACC.

In many FSU fans are worse sports and more unrealistic than Texas fans. They just have maybe 1/10th the money and 1/15th the political power. So they have about a dozen chips on each shoulder.
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Your best post ever here!!!
 
Some options (I like lists):
Super 2 Breakaway
1. In-conference playoffs with champions playing for the title
2. Top teams (#TBD) set up cross conference tournament, open with something like B1G#1 vs SEC#4, etc.
3. Just seed top # of teams across the two conferences into a bracket
ISSUES: Who are they going to play in the regular season? In-conference only?
Could the outsiders develop a playoff that competes for attention or casts doubt on "True" National Champion?

Form a new NCAA Division above D-1
1. Super 2 Champs are the only ones to get a autobid. Rest are at-large (mostly Super 2s and a couple tokens from lesser conferences).
2. Same as above, but a 3rd conference champ also gets an autobid (likely a merged ACC/B12 or the last survivor).
3. No autobids. Again, most of playoff lineup will be Super 2, plus whoever the hot outsiders are that crack the rankings in a given season.
ISSUE: How would the selection system vary from the current one?
 
BlazeOrange said:
Some options (I like lists):
Super 2 Breakaway
1. In-conference playoffs with champions playing for the title
2. Top teams (#TBD) set up cross conference tournament, open with something like B1G#1 vs SEC#4, etc.
3. Just seed top # of teams across the two conferences into a bracket
ISSUES: Who are they going to play in the regular season? In-conference only?
Could the outsiders develop a playoff that competes for attention or casts doubt on "True" National Champion?

Form a new NCAA Division above D-1
1. Super 2 Champs are the only ones to get a autobid. Rest are at-large (mostly Super 2s and a couple tokens from lesser conferences).
2. Same as above, but a 3rd conference champ also gets an autobid (likely a merged ACC/B12 or the last survivor).
3. No autobids. Again, most of playoff lineup will be Super 2, plus whoever the hot outsiders are that crack the rankings in a given season.
ISSUE: How would the selection system vary from the current one?
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Does anyone care who wins the FCS? Is there ever a question if North Dakota State is the true D1 champ instead of the FBS champ? The same thing would apply to a new sub division of B18 and SEC teams. Their playoff will determine their champ. Even if the AP poll chose the FBS champ as #1, the P2 champ would say isn't that cute and not care. They got their NCAA trophy and got paid.

Does most of the talent (including coaching talent) end up in FBS or FCS? So if the B18 and SEC broke away into their own sub division, they would have all the talent (even worse than now). What kid or coach would want to be in the lower division (like with FCS vs FBS)?

Most likely they would go to 10 game conference schedules and 1-2 OOC vs the other conference. Then instead of an FCS game like they have now, they have one FBS cupcake game.

The left behind FBS teams would have no marquee Ws. Clemson can go undefeated but if their biggest Ws are FSU and BYU why would anyone think they are better than the P2 sub division champ. Same as with North Dakota State winning the FCS.

As to Part II
The B18 and SEC cannot dictate how the FBS playoff goes. The ACC, B12, and G5 need to agree to the system. It is why the G5 was thrown a bone in the new system. The B18 and SEC have all the power and will absolutely get a favorable outcome, but they cannot close out the rest of the FBS. The PAC going away isn't going to change the playoff from 6 conference champs to 2.

I think they could push for more playoff teams and/or no auto Top 4 as conference champs. Maybe something like...

Top 3 conference champs make the Quarterfinals.
Next 3 conference champs and 3 best at larges make the 2nd Round.
Bottom 3 conference champs and 5 next best at larges are in the 1st Round.

That gives every conference champ a shot. There would be 8 at larges (only 6 currently) which will be mostly B18 and SEC teams.

For example...

QFs: UGA, Michigan, Clemson
2nd Round: K State, Tulane, Troy, TCU, Ohio State, Bama
1st Round: UTSA, Fresno State, Toledo, Tennessee, Utah, USC, Penn State, Washington

That would have yielded:
5 B18
3 SEC
3 B12
1 AAC, ACC, CUSA, MAC, MWC, Sun Belt

1st Round
10. Tennesse vs 17. Toledo
11. USC vs 16. Fresno State
12. Utah vs 15. UTSA
13. Penn State vs 14. Washington

2nd Round
4. TCU vs 13. Penn State
5. Ohio State vs 12. Utah
6. Bama vs 11. USC
7. K State vs 10. Tennessee
8. Tulane vs 9. Troy

QF
1. UGA vs 8. Tulane
2. Michigan vs 7. K State
3. Clemson vs 6. Bama
4. TCU vs 5. Ohio State

SF
1. UGA vs 5. Ohio State
2. Michigan vs 6. Bama

CG
1. UGA vs 6. Bama

All the CG game money goes to the SEC. All the SF money is split between the SEC and B18.
 
pokercuse08 said:
I don't either, but I use archive.ph. ESPN profited by $3B in the first half of 2023, so they're on track for about a 30% decline from your numbers. That assumes their profit is ~equally spread over the year, but I don't know if that's the case and I'm going to be lazy and not dig into Disney's quarterlies from last year to find out. Based on the reporting, I think they're definitely declining and Disney is considering selling them.
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My comment was that ESPN was Disney's main profit center. In 2022, ESPN accounted for approximately 40% of Disney profits. Even with a 30% decrease (which is likely to to cost cutting measures which cost money up front and save money on the back end), ESPN is very profitable.

The real issue is that Disney has not been able to monetize streaming as much as estimated and they have near zero effective monetizing streaming with ESPN (relative comment). They need a partner to overcome the obstacles.
 
Last edited:
HRE Otto IV said:
The B18 and SEC cannot dictate how the FBS playoff goes. The ACC, B12, and G5 need to agree to the system. It is why the G5 was thrown a bone in the new

I think they could push for more playoff teams and/or no auto Top 4 as conference champs. Maybe something like...

Top 3 conference champs make the Quarterfinals.
Next 3 conference champs and 3 best at larges make the 2nd Round.
Bottom 3 conference champs and 5 next best at larges are in the 1st Round.

That gives every conference champ a shot. There would be 8 at larges (only 6 currently) which will be mostly B18 and SEC teams.

For example...

QFs: UGA, Michigan, Clemson
2nd Round: K State, Tulane, Troy, TCU, Ohio State, Bama
1st Round: UTSA, Fresno State, Toledo, Tennessee, Utah, USC, Penn State, Washington

That would have yielded:
5 B18
3 SEC
3 B12
1 AAC, ACC, CUSA, MAC, MWC, Sun Belt

1st Round
10. Tennesse vs 17. Toledo
11. USC vs 16. Fresno State
12. Utah vs 15. UTSA
13. Penn State vs 14. Washington

2nd Round
4. TCU vs 13. Penn State
5. Ohio State vs 12. Utah
6. Bama vs 11. USC
7. K State vs 10. Tennessee
8. Tulane vs 9. Troy

QF
1. UGA vs 8. Tulane
2. Michigan vs 7. K State
3. Clemson vs 6. Bama
4. TCU vs 5. Ohio State

SF
1. UGA vs 5. Ohio State
2. Michigan vs 6. Bama

CG
1. UGA vs 6. Bama
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That's 5 weeks of playoffs on top of a regular season of at least 10 games and a conference championship game for some. Tough fit if they want to show any recognition of the student part of student athlete. And on the other end, non-playoff teams get an additional revenue hit by a shortened regular season.

12 teams is established as doable, so staying with that: guarantee 4 teams: a G5 team and the next top 3 conference champs. Add 8 at-large, seed them, and give the top 4 a bye.

A case could be made to consider whatever is left of the B12 and/or ACC as a G5 at some point.
 
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