ACC, PAC-12, and BIG alliance / conference realignment

[kcsu]

You’ve been told your expiration date?

Im going with my Grandmother age 106

 

[HRE Otto IV]

Anyone have access to the Matt Brown article about B1G candidates in 1990? He mentioned Notre Dame and Vandy. We already know the B1G studied Missouri, Kansas, Rutgers, and SU at one point. I was curious if any others were on there. It is interesting that BC never seems to be mentioned. Although I am sure ND would push for them. But as a stand alone it appears no interest.

 

[SU94]

Likely an unpopular opinion of mine:

One of the reasons that SU had largely struggled since joining the ACC is simple geography.

Most (most!) schools that traditionally anchor or dominate or win the most in power conferences are the schools that are centered within the league’s geographic footprint.

There are many examples (and to be fair some exceptions too), including UNC hoops, Duke hoops, USC football, Nebraska football (Big 8, Big 12), UCLA hoops, Bama football, Kansas basketball (Big 8), Clemson football (present day ACC), Syracuse basketball (Big East).

Maybe centered is too strong. Maybe “not on the perimeter of the conference” is better. As stated, there are some exceptions, like Arizona hoops, Miami football (Big East) and even Ohio State football (Big 10 before PSU, Maryland, Rutgers added). FSU football during before ACC expansion in 2003.

Again, not saying this is some sort of universal law or anything that strong. But when you can attract students, athletes and fans from many directions (360 degrees), it greatly helps.

I think SU went from being ostensibly the heartbeat of the Big East to the Neptune of the ACC. And please note that I am absolutely a proponent of Syracuse’s ACC membership. Had to do it. Unwilling to sacrifice football to maintain Big East rivalries.

I just think it is always going to be harder for SU, with this being one of the main reasons. And I think it is also why most schools have struggled with conference expansion: SU, Nebraska, Colorado, South Carolina, BC, West Virginia, Maryland, Arkansas (they were on the perimeter of the Big 12 too), Mizzou.

There are undeniably other factors involved, but this is a working theory of mine. And, at least in my view, college sports peaked when there were 7-8 power conferences of 7-10 teams apiece.

 

[elimunelson]

Likely an unpopular opinion of mine:

One of the reasons that SU had largely struggled since joining the ACC is simple geography.

Most (most!) schools that traditionally anchor or dominate or win the most in power conferences are the schools that are centered within the league’s geographic footprint.

There are many examples (and to be fair some exceptions too), including UNC hoops, Duke hoops, USC football, Nebraska football (Big 8, Big 12), UCLA hoops, Bama football, Kansas basketball (Big 8), Clemson football (present day ACC), Syracuse basketball (Big East).

Maybe centered is too strong. Maybe “not on the perimeter of the conference” is better. As stated, there are some exceptions, like Arizona hoops, Miami football (Big East) and even Ohio State football (Big 10 before PSU, Maryland, Rutgers added). FSU football during before ACC expansion in 2003.

Again, not saying this is some sort of universal law or anything that strong. But when you can attract students, athletes and fans from many directions (360 degrees), it greatly helps.

I think SU went from being ostensibly the heartbeat of the Big East to the Neptune of the ACC. And please note that I am absolutely a proponent of Syracuse’s ACC membership. Had to do it. Unwilling to sacrifice football to maintain Big East rivalries.

I just think it is always going to be harder for SU, with this being one of the main reasons. And I think it is also why most schools have struggled with conference expansion: SU, Nebraska, Colorado, South Carolina, BC, West Virginia, Maryland, Arkansas (they were on the perimeter of the Big 12 too), Mizzou.

There are undeniably other factors involved, but this is a working theory of mine. And, at least in my view, college sports peaked when there were 7-8 power conferences of 7-10 teams apiece.

We are a fish out of water in the ACC

We took the money and basically eliminated any cultural/geographical fits conference wise.

We got what we wanted which was a well funded and very mediocre producing dept in the revenue sports.

 

[HtownOrange]

So - we’d somehow be a better fit culturally with massive land-grant State U’s in flyover country,
than with mostly smaller and mid-sized private schools on the east coast?

It was always going to be an issue building new/stronger relations with schools that are more similar to SU in regions where SU has more alumni vs. schools that SU has historically played against/rival, I.e. Penn State (most historic rival), Ohio, Michigan recruiting grounds of old, but mainly PSU.

SU made the right choice at the time and it is still the right choice today. Until the SEC and B1G can blow up the ACC, the ACC is the right choice. It remains unlikely that ESPN will give up the ACC properties to Fox for the sake of the SEC, that is bad business. Thus, it remains that the SEC and B1G will not likely blow up the ACC.

Now if SU could just improve their football…

 

[HRE Otto IV]

Likely an unpopular opinion of mine:

One of the reasons that SU had largely struggled since joining the ACC is simple geography.

Most (most!) schools that traditionally anchor or dominate or win the most in power conferences are the schools that are centered within the league’s geographic footprint.

There are many examples (and to be fair some exceptions too), including UNC hoops, Duke hoops, USC football, Nebraska football (Big 8, Big 12), UCLA hoops, Bama football, Kansas basketball (Big 8), Clemson football (present day ACC), Syracuse basketball (Big East).

Maybe centered is too strong. Maybe “not on the perimeter of the conference” is better. As stated, there are some exceptions, like Arizona hoops, Miami football (Big East) and even Ohio State football (Big 10 before PSU, Maryland, Rutgers added). FSU football during before ACC expansion in 2003.

Again, not saying this is some sort of universal law or anything that strong. But when you can attract students, athletes and fans from many directions (360 degrees), it greatly helps.

I think SU went from being ostensibly the heartbeat of the Big East to the Neptune of the ACC. And please note that I am absolutely a proponent of Syracuse’s ACC membership. Had to do it. Unwilling to sacrifice football to maintain Big East rivalries.

I just think it is always going to be harder for SU, with this being one of the main reasons. And I think it is also why most schools have struggled with conference expansion: SU, Nebraska, Colorado, South Carolina, BC, West Virginia, Maryland, Arkansas (they were on the perimeter of the Big 12 too), Mizzou.

There are undeniably other factors involved, but this is a working theory of mine. And, at least in my view, college sports peaked when there were 7-8 power conferences of 7-10 teams apiece.

I can buy some of that. But it wouldn't be hard to rectify in football by playing local teams OOC. If along with ND we rotated NE P5s (Rutgers, Penn State, WV, MD) we would have variety while also having NE road games. We can do the same with one of the G5 games by making it a NE rotation (UConn, UMass, Temple, Army). That would give us 6-7 home games, one road game in conf (BC/Pitt), and one road game OOC (P5 or G5) all in the Northeast. Having 8-9 games is plenty, it shouldn't matter that the other 3 ACC games are vs Southern teams.

BBall is a different story since after New Years we only can play one game within the DC to Boston corridor.

 

[TexanMark]

Couple quick hitters

The ACC is still our best conference. Our fanbase and alumni base is spread throughout most of the conference footprint.

My dream scenario: Basketball in the old Big East and the rest of the sports in the ACC

SU needs to contact SJU about a doubleheader Friday before our Pitt game.

SU should play someone like Manhattan. SJU should play someone like St. Peter's (NJ). Ordinarily I'd want to play SJU but with a new coach and Maui happening...SU needs a 90%+ chance of victory.

I very much support 1 or 2 NE/mid atlantic/NE Ohio G5 schools on the OOC schedule every year.

 

[HRE Otto IV]

Couple quick hitters

The ACC is still our best conference. Our fanbase and alumni base is spread throughout most of the conference footprint.

My dream scenario: Basketball in the old Big East and the rest of the sports in the ACC

SU needs to contact SJU about a doubleheader Friday before our Pitt game.

SU should play someone like Manhattan. SJU should play someone like St. Peter's (NJ). Ordinarily I'd want to play SJU but with a new coach and Maui happening...SU needs a 90%+ chance of victory.

I very much support 1 or 2 NE/mid atlantic/NE Ohio G5 schools on the OOC schedule every year.

The old Big East died when Miami joined. Then it got worse when they left as that ushered in the Midwestern schools.

If the B12 did pull off having separate contracts for FB and everything else, would schools consider having one conference for FB only and everything else is on its own? That would be great. But I think the conference networks would be a big issue for allowing schools to leave. Although I suppose they could all share the conference network and have scheduling agreements.

It would be great to be in the ACC for FB, and a new Northeastern conference for other sports (if you can't get the Big East name).

BBall (round robin 18 game conf schedule)
SU, Notre Dame, BC, Providence, UConn, St Johns, Seton Hall, Nova, Pitt, Georgetown
Conf tourney in MSG. This would be the Big East OGs plus ND.

ACC BBall would be down to...

Duke, UNC, NC State, Wake, UVA, VA Tech, Louisville, Clemson, GA Tech, FSU, Miami

A true Southern conference that can play a round robin 20 game schedule. Conf tourney in Greensboro.

ACC FB would stay the same. Maybe add UConn. The Tier 1/2 games get sold, mostly likely ESPN. Tier 3 go to the ACCN.

ACC BBall sells Tier 1/2 (ESPN?) and Tier 3 goes to ACCN.

Big East BBall sells Tier 1/2 (ESPN?) and Tier 3 goes to ACCN.

The ACC keeps its Tier 1/2 to itself and shares ACCN. Same for the Big East.


I suppose the ACC could just expand by adding St Johns, Nova, Georgetown, UConn, and one of Seton Hall/Providence. Then you have 2 divisions in BBall. You have 9 of the above Big East teams and add Louisville to make 10. That gets the ACC from above down to 10. This way you can still have one giant Tier 1/2 BBall contract.

You can play your division teams twice a year and 4 rotating games against the other division (22 games total). So we would play Duke once every 5 years home and away. For the ACCT one division plays Tuesday to Friday at MSG and the other at Greensboro. The two teams left can play Sunday in DC. That is a bit much which is why it would be better to have two separate conferences.

 

[Scooch]

When was Syracuse University moved from Central New York to North Carolina? I must have missed that massive geographic change that has so crippled our ability to lure kids to the same campus they went to when we were in the Big East.

 

[TexanMark]

When was Syracuse University moved from Central New York to North Carolina? I must have missed that massive geographic change that has so crippled our ability to lure kids to the same campus they went to when we were in the Big East.

We don't hold the same presence in the NE now. It is segmented among three conferences now.

 

[TexanMark]

Sal personally I liked playing Cincy and Louisville from 05-12. They were urban schools and had decent facilities.

 

[CousCuse]

Sal personally I liked playing Cincy and Louisville from 05-12. They were urban schools and had decent facilities.

It was fun playing all those teams in the OBE.

 

[Scooch]

We don't hold the same presence in the NE now. It is segmented among three conferences now.

Eh. Penn State joined the Big Ten in 1991 and they are, by far, the most popular school in the northeast. Notre Dame is #2.

We still play 18+ games in Syracuse as we have forever. We still play in Boston. And DC. And NYC. If our northeast presence is down because of the lack of games in Providence and Hartford I don’t know what to tell you.

WCBS-AM still reports Syracuse hoops scores as a “local” team.

We’ve been down because our HC didn’t put in the effort he once did, and our ace recruiter left. When we improve I suspect no one is going to claim it’s because of “geography”.

 

[CU44SE]

Bottom line is it hurts recruiting. When we played in the big east. We recruited near our “base”. Family’s could drive to most games. Now we play a lot of southern teams. Driving to most games is not easy for some family’s. We play 6-7 home games for football or 18 basketball games and the rest are mostly not drivable. And then if you recruit from the south, they are not making the home games and only the away games.

They always talk about homegrown talent. Syracuse doesn’t have a hole lot of homegrown football talent and basketball talent is diminished outside of NYC. We could recruit NYC and DMV before because again, most games were drivable home and away. Now, we have BC and Pitt. And then 10 hour drive down south.

DMV used to have 4 locations that were within 3 hour drives. Now we have 1. The areas we play most of our games is farther away then where we play. It’s not as easy to travel for families.

 

[qdawgg]

Bottom line is it hurts recruiting. When we played in the big east. We recruited near our “base”. Family’s could drive to most games. Now we play a lot of southern teams. Driving to most games is not easy for some family’s. We play 6-7 home games for football or 18 basketball games and the rest are mostly not drivable. And then if you recruit from the south, they are not making the home games and only the away games.

They always talk about homegrown talent. Syracuse doesn’t have a hole lot of homegrown football talent and basketball talent is diminished outside of NYC. We could recruit NYC and DMV before because again, most games were drivable home and away. Now, we have BC and Pitt. And then 10 hour drive down south.

DMV used to have 4 locations that were within 3 hour drives. Now we have 1. The areas we play most of our games is farther away then where we play. It’s not as easy to travel for families.

No.

 

[CU44SE]

No.

Really good back and forth. Thoughtful answer, really had me rethink my stance. Let’s do it again sometime.

 

[HRE Otto IV]

Eh. Penn State joined the Big Ten in 1991 and they are, by far, the most popular school in the northeast. Notre Dame is #2.

We still play 18+ games in Syracuse as we have forever. We still play in Boston. And DC. And NYC. If our northeast presence is down because of the lack of games in Providence and Hartford I don’t know what to tell you.

WCBS-AM still reports Syracuse hoops scores as a “local” team.

We’ve been down because our HC didn’t put in the effort he once did, and our ace recruiter left. When we improve I suspect no one is going to claim it’s because of “geography”.

If it is harder for alumni to attend games within DC/Boston then wouldn’t that be the same for recruits and their families?

Yes, Syracuse is not far away but it isn’t close either. It is over a four hour drive.

January through March we play ONE road game every other year that is an easy trip for our fans. We used to have every other year DC, Philly, Newark, Piscataway, NYC, Hartford, Providence, Boston and every year MSG.

Yes we still play in NYC OOC pre ACC but we used to do that anyway. And it is in November. We play in DC in December every other year. That isn’t the same.

Even if we were still good, I don’t think we would feel as connected as we used to because we aren’t attending games.

 

[Scooch]

If it is harder for alumni to attend games within DC/Boston then wouldn’t that be the same for recruits and their families?

Yes, Syracuse is not far away but it isn’t close either. It is over a four hour drive.

January through March we play ONE road game every other year that is an easy trip for our fans. We used to have every other year DC, Philly, Newark, Piscataway, NYC, Hartford, Providence, Boston and every year MSG.

Yes we still play in NYC OOC pre ACC but we used to do that anyway. And it is in November. We play in DC in December every other year. That isn’t the same.

Even if we were still good, I don’t think we would feel as connected as we used to because we aren’t attending games.

I’m just not at all convinced that our recruiting hinged on a parent being able to attend one game every two years in a city somewhat closer to their home.

Plus that doesn’t account for the myriad of top tier recruits we regularly landed outside the northeast.

We used to get 5 stars from California and Michigan and Texas.

And many of the northeast kids that we’ve missed on in recent years went to schools outside the region.

It’s a convenient narrative but I’ve yet to encounter anything resembling proof. Meanwhile our HC notably stopped hitting the trail hard nearly a decade ago and the guy who kept thing afloat left in 2017. That seems far more likely to be the culprit than some vague notion of geographic misplacement.

 

[CU44SE]

I’m just not at all convinced that our recruiting hinged on a parent being able to attend one game every two years in a city somewhat closer to their home.

Plus that doesn’t account for the myriad of top tier recruits we regularly landed outside the northeast.

We used to get 5 stars from California and Michigan and Texas.

And many of the northeast kids that we’ve missed on in recent years went to schools outside the region.

It’s a convenient narrative but I’ve yet to encounter anything resembling proof. Meanwhile our HC notably stopped hitting the trail hard nearly a decade ago and the guy who kept thing afloat left in 2017. That seems far more likely to be the culprit than some vague notion of geographic misplacement.

Work that I don’t feel like doing. But I’m sure there are studies out there that would prove or disprove any theory. But it is interesting that teams that are added to conferences rarely have great success.

 

[HRE Otto IV]

I’m just not at all convinced that our recruiting hinged on a parent being able to attend one game every two years in a city somewhat closer to their home.

Plus that doesn’t account for the myriad of top tier recruits we regularly landed outside the northeast.

We used to get 5 stars from California and Michigan and Texas.

And many of the northeast kids that we’ve missed on in recent years went to schools outside the region.

It’s a convenient narrative but I’ve yet to encounter anything resembling proof. Meanwhile our HC notably stopped hitting the trail hard nearly a decade ago and the guy who kept thing afloat left in 2017. That seems far more likely to be the culprit than some vague notion of geographic misplacement.

The ACC move isn't why we stink the last 9 years. That is on JB and the assistants. If you are a Top 10 team, you can recruit anywhere. If you have a good HC, you can recruit anywhere. If you have a stud assistant, you can pull kids from their area. BTW both Red and GMac had ONE year of recruiting experience combined prior to SU. If you have a bunch of NIL money, you can recruit anywhere.

But if your HC is average, you assistants aren't stud recruiters, you don't have an NIL war chest, and you haven't been ranked past XMas since 2014... it sure would help if you played a bunch of games locally to your recruiting base.

The bigger issue IMO is being connected to our alumni. We play ONE game past XMas over a two year period within DC/Boston. These alumni used to fill arenas to see SU play. IMO that won't happen in the South as it requires real travel. Watching on TV isn't the same as being there.

 

[Scooch]

The ACC move isn't why we stink the last 9 years. That is on JB and the assistants. If you are a Top 10 team, you can recruit anywhere. If you have a good HC, you can recruit anywhere. If you have a stud assistant, you can pull kids from their area. BTW both Red and GMac had ONE year of recruiting experience combined prior to SU. If you have a bunch of NIL money, you can recruit anywhere.

But if your HC is average, you assistants aren't stud recruiters, you don't have an NIL war chest, and you haven't been ranked past XMas since 2014... it sure would help if you played a bunch of games locally to your recruiting base.

The bigger issue IMO is being connected to our alumni. We play ONE game past XMas over a two year period within DC/Boston. These alumni used to fill arenas to see SU play. IMO that won't happen in the South as it requires real travel. Watching on TV isn't the same as being there.

Gotcha. Yeah we were talking about different dynamics.

I get your point about alumni, but at the same time a lot of CNY population and our alumi base has moved to the DMV/Carolinas/Florida areas. We still turn out very, very well when we play in DC, Raleigh, Miami, etc.

I think the school has a done a good job of putting games in NYC and DC, along with Boston, to maintain alumni connection. The notable hole is Philly. We should be there more often.

Honestly, as someone who lives in CT and grew up in southeastern Mass., we don't really need games in Hartford, Providence, or North Jersey to maintain connections. All of those folks (including myself) are fine going to games in NYC and Boston.

 

[Scooch]

Work that I don’t feel like doing. But I’m sure there are studies out there that would prove or disprove any theory. But it is interesting that teams that are added to conferences rarely have great success.

On your latter point, there was an Athletic piece that tackled that last year. But the challenge is that the sample size is incredibly small, and assessing performance is subject to many more inter-related factors than just moving conferences.

And there really hasn't been a ton of truly top-tier programs that have switched leagues. Miami football counts, but they moved to a conference that actually far better suits their footprint. It's interesting that no one ever mentions that, probably because it runs 100% counter to the narrative.

Who are the others? Rutgers, Maryland, Pitt, us, Utah, Colorado... I mean this isn't a murderer's row of programs. Nebraska was already trending down when they joined the B1G.

USC and UCLA, plus Texas and Oklahoma will be interesting cases to follow. But all of them have had their ups and downs over the past two+ decades in their current conferences (save for OK football). So again, tough to tease out the conference change from a myriad of other factors.

 

[Bayside44]

Bottom line is it hurts recruiting. When we played in the big east. We recruited near our “base”. Family’s could drive to most games. Now we play a lot of southern teams. Driving to most games is not easy for some family’s. We play 6-7 home games for football or 18 basketball games and the rest are mostly not drivable. And then if you recruit from the south, they are not making the home games and only the away games.

They always talk about homegrown talent. Syracuse doesn’t have a hole lot of homegrown football talent and basketball talent is diminished outside of NYC. We could recruit NYC and DMV before because again, most games were drivable home and away. Now, we have BC and Pitt. And then 10 hour drive down south.

DMV used to have 4 locations that were within 3 hour drives. Now we have 1. The areas we play most of our games is farther away then where we play. It’s not as easy to travel for families.

Six or so away games are 4ish hours away from the DMV. And FWIW we had two Maryland guys and two Virginia guys on our roster last year.

That isn't / wasn't the problem.

 

[HRE Otto IV]

Gotcha. Yeah we were talking about different dynamics.

I get your point about alumni, but at the same time a lot of CNY population and our alumi base has moved to the DMV/Carolinas/Florida areas. We still turn out very, very well when we play in DC, Raleigh, Miami, etc.

I think the school has a done a good job of putting games in NYC and DC, along with Boston, to maintain alumni connection. The notable hole is Philly. We should be there more often.

Honestly, as someone who lives in CT and grew up in southeastern Mass., we don't really need games in Hartford, Providence, or North Jersey to maintain connections. All of those folks (including myself) are fine going to games in NYC and Boston.

There are games but not as many to chose from.

We used to have something like...

Year1: November NYC game/s
Year1 post New Years: DC, Newark, Hartford, Boston, NYC conf tournament

Year2 post New Years: DC, Philly, NYC, Providence, NYC conf tournament

Now we have...

Year1: November NYC game/s, December DC game
Year1 post New Years: NYC conf tournament

Year2: November NYC game/s
Year2 post New Years: Boston

Year3: November NYC game/s, December DC game
Year3 post New Years: DC conf tournament

Year4: November NYC game/s
Year4 post New Years: Boston

 

[TexanMark]

I’m just not at all convinced that our recruiting hinged on a parent being able to attend one game every two years in a city somewhat closer to their home.

Plus that doesn’t account for the myriad of top tier recruits we regularly landed outside the northeast.

We used to get 5 stars from California and Michigan and Texas.

And many of the northeast kids that we’ve missed on in recent years went to schools outside the region.

It’s a convenient narrative but I’ve yet to encounter anything resembling proof. Meanwhile our HC notably stopped hitting the trail hard nearly a decade ago and the guy who kept thing afloat left in 2017. That seems far more likely to be the culprit than some vague notion of geographic misplacement.

Convenient narrative maybe...but it is a factor

I think the other factors are: aging coach who lost his recruiting mojo, zone defense becoming less effective, extreme probation penalties and very few games in the NE especially Jan-Mar regular season.