Al Golden?

[Townie72]

I don't think it's a hard sell.

New Dome Reno, ACC, IPF, a lot of young players getting run this year, which you can view on film and make your own assessment. Work for grown ups. You just have to believe that your system and results will bring the fans back. If you do, the place is a magnificent home field advantage.

There was a time I worried about who would want to coach here. I don't worry about that anymore.

I’m starting to wonder if any Northeastern based school can compete regardless of who the coach is. The southern schools and a few of the huge Midwestern ones seem to be taking over the sport. And the rosters of many of the NE schools are loaded with players from Florida and other Southern states.

I just looked at the USA Today power rankings:
37 – PSU
39 – Pitt
40 – Temple
75 – BC
80 – MD
82 – SU
89 – Rutgers
93 – UConn
105 - Buffalo

Not very encouraging.

 

[Moontan]

I've been watching SU football for a long time and I can't remember the HC job ever being that attractive.

And if I'm a hot coach, I might just look at history and how my predecessors have done:

Maloney - A Michigan AC. Was here a long time, but was fired at the point he had things going on the right direction and a new facility was being built.
Macpherson - An experienced HC at a lower level. A good hire, but certainly not a young, hot commodity.
Pasqualoni - Inherited the HC job from Mac. Was fired for performing less well than Mac did (including an embarrassing loss to Rutgers)
GRob- A Pro Asst coach with many recommendations who completely failed and was fired
Marrone - Alum and ex-Pro coach who got a better offer and bolted.
HCSS - Another ez hire from the staff. Sems to be having trouble having the team find its feet.

So we have had six coaches since Ole Ben and only one of them actually panned out. And the new Carrier Dome had a lot to do with that.

So, with the Dome renovations, you're saying that it'll soon be a great opportunity.

 

[Townie72]

So, with the Dome renovations, you're saying that it'll soon be a great opportunity.

Sure. A new coat of paint an it's 1980 all over again.

In 1979 the Dome was a shocking, even novel concept. It was a huge improvement.

We took advantage of it, but even then it took a few years (1986) for its full impact to be felt.

I don't see any huge improvement coming from any new coach. I'd prefer us to get a little bettter every year and not chase some revolutionary change. Sort of like Maloney did. By 1979, he had a good product on the field (Up from pretty dreadful in the mid-1970's).

If this forum is any indicator, a percentage of our fans seem to have ADD which can only be addressed through revolutionary change and moving to an NFL-like passing game. But without the NFL QBs, receivers and practice regimen.

 

[IthacaBarrel]

Sure. A new coat of paint an it's 1980 all over again.

In 1979 the Dome was a shocking, even novel concept. It was a huge improvement.

We took advantage of it, but even then it took a few years (1986) for its full impact to be felt.

I don't see any huge improvement coming from any new coach. I'd prefer us to get a little bettter every year and not chase some revolutionary change. Sort of like Maloney did. By 1979, he had a good product on the field (Up from pretty dreadful in the mid-1970's).

If this forum is any indicator, a percentage of our fans seem to have ADD which can only be addressed through revolutionary change and moving to an NFL-like passing game. But without the NFL QBs, receivers and practice regimen.

I think most here want nothing to do with an NFL passing game, coach or scheme. Just a HC with experience as well as experience of running a successful offense at the college level.

 

[Bayside44]

I think most here want nothing to do with an NFL passing game, coach or scheme. Just a HC with experience as well as experience of running a successful offense at the college level.

People seem to want some version of the Saints. Flat field, non meathead (going for it on 4th and 1 on their 29) type stuff.

 

[IthacaBarrel]

People seem to want some version of the Saints. Flat field, non meathead (going for it on 4th and 1 on their 29) type stuff.

We thought we got that once no?

 

[Townie72]

I think most here want nothing to do with an NFL passing game, coach or scheme. Just a HC with experience as well as experience of running a successful offense at the college level.

I haven't counted heads, but I have read a couple of dozen posts calling for a pass-oriented offense in the past two weeks (To take advantage of the Dome, etc).

There are many problems with that approach starting with the achievability of it. But the guys who recommend it brush this off. After all, it's their job as fans to recommend the strategy, not to implement it. Or to bear the consequences when it crashes and burns. (I'm reminded of the great quote from "Animal House" when the kid is looking at the damage to his brother's car, "Hey, you screwed up, You trusted us."

They don't like guys who have head coaching experience who are the not the rising stars based on their most recent experience. Guys like Al Golden don't pass their muster.

If I'm the hot new coach, I'm not picking SU. Too high a hill top climb. If HCSS is out, we better pick quality over recent glitz. What we need is another Dick MacPherson.

 

[Millhouse]

People seem to want some version of the Saints. Flat field, non meathead (going for it on 4th and 1 on their 29) type stuff.

we thought we were getting that once. finally got around it to it, and it was good, then it was over.

 

[Millhouse]

I haven't counted heads, but I have read a couple of dozen posts calling for a pass-oriented offense in the past two weeks (To take advantage of the Dome, etc).

There are many problems with that approach starting with the achievability of it. But the guys who recommend it brush this off. After all, it's their job as fans to recommend the strategy, not to implement it. Or to bear the consequences when it crashes and burns. (I'm reminded of the great quote from "Animal House" when the kid is looking at the damage to his brother's car, "Hey, you screwed up, You trusted us."

They don't like guys who have head coaching experience who are the not the rising stars based on their most recent experience. Guys like Al Golden don't pass their muster.

If I'm the hot new coach, I'm not picking SU. Too high a hill top climb. If HCSS is out, we better pick quality over recent glitz. What we need is another Dick MacPherson.

glitz!

all these new fangled glitzy froofy glory boys and their finger quote passing

fullbacks! tight ends!

 

[IthacaBarrel]

I haven't counted heads, but I have read a couple of dozen posts calling for a pass-oriented offense in the past two weeks (To take advantage of the Dome, etc).

There are many problems with that approach starting with the achievability of it. But the guys who recommend it brush this off. After all, it's their job as fans to recommend the strategy, not to implement it. Or to bear the consequences when it crashes and burns. (I'm reminded of the great quote from "Animal House" when the kid is looking at the damage to his brother's car, "Hey, you screwed up, You trusted us."

They don't like guys who have head coaching experience who are the not the rising stars based on their most recent experience. Guys like Al Golden don't pass their muster.

If I'm the hot new coach, I'm not picking SU. Too high a hill top climb. If HCSS is out, we better pick quality over recent glitz. What we need is another Dick MacPherson.

I think we need a HC with experience, IMO and a guy that has a proven track record on the offensive side of the ball. I don't think it's a NFL system , I think it's a college system we need and there are guys out there that can do that. I think Syracuse fans are too stuck in the past with everything, the success, failures, etc. Right now we have no more chance of being successful in today's landscape than any other bottom tier P5 program. Consistency in a HC isn't the answer if that coach isn't good because to be successful at Syracuse, we need a blend of recruiting, scheme, intelligence because not one thing will get it done. Sure there are risks involved but I don't think looking for the next Coach Mac is the answer, I just don't.

Your definition of "hot new coach" is too broad. I don't think we can get ALL of them but certain ones sure I think we can. Takes money and a chance to compete at a higher level. also may take a guy that wants to utilize playing indoors 7 weeks a year

Lots of dinosaur speak around here as if these offenses that we speak of are from another planet. It's the way the game is being played in 2015, just need to join in. It's not 1989 anymore

 

[anomander]

I think, barring a great turnaround, keeping Shafer costs the rest of this recruiting cycle and the next. Which recruits that are in demand are signing up now with all the Shafer rumors?

Totally agree. IMO the opposite happens of what most people are suggesting. I think you have it correctly. That's why the move needs to be made now. Only downhill from here.

 

[anomander]

Guys, I know people on the recruiting forum, like to puff their chests out, shotgun beers and do bicep curls all day when preaching about Shafer's recruiting prowess but he is consistently 2nd last to only Wake, the only team we seem to be able to beat in the ACC. He's not very good at that either, looks at the defense? Misfits everywhere. The stud RB that guys like averages the same YPC as the junior people want to run off the field.

I've had this stance for a while and normally get killed on it.

 

[Townie72]

I think we need a HC with experience, IMO and a guy that has a proven track record on the offensive side of the ball. I don't think it's a NFL system , I think it's a college system we need and there are guys out there that can do that. I think Syracuse fans are too stuck in the past with everything, the success, failures, etc. Right now we have no more chance of being successful in today's landscape than any other bottom tier P5 program. Consistency in a HC isn't the answer if that coach isn't good because to be successful at Syracuse, we need a blend of recruiting, scheme, intelligence because not one thing will get it done. Sure there are risks involved but I don't think looking for the next Coach Mac is the answer, I just don't.

Your definition of "hot new coach" is too broad. I don't think we can get ALL of them but certain ones sure I think we can. Takes money and a chance to compete at a higher level. also may take a guy that wants to utilize playing indoors 7 weeks a year

Lots of dinosaur speak around here as if these offenses that we speak of are from another planet. It's the way the game is being played in 2015, just need to join in. It's not 1989 anymore

I'm influenced in this by the long-term and continuing circus associated with the Washington Redskins. The owner seems to think like the average SU fan always looking to pull a rabbit out of the hat with some sort of popular maneuver. The fan base -- the dumbest in all of sports --- buys in and buys tickets every year.

What you are recommending does sound reasonable.

But I still have concerns not limited to whether any Northeastern school can compete with the the Southern ones and the Midwestern monsters. SU's ceiling with the best coaching many be the second tier of the ACC. If that's true, I can't see a private school throwing big bucks chasing a goal that may not be achievable because of some basic problems (e.g. NYS high school football talent level)

 

[KaiserUEO]

I haven't counted heads, but I have read a couple of dozen posts calling for a pass-oriented offense in the past two weeks (To take advantage of the Dome, etc).

There are many problems with that approach starting with the achievability of it. But the guys who recommend it brush this off. After all, it's their job as fans to recommend the strategy, not to implement it. Or to bear the consequences when it crashes and burns. (I'm reminded of the great quote from "Animal House" when the kid is looking at the damage to his brother's car, "Hey, you screwed up, You trusted us."

They don't like guys who have head coaching experience who are the not the rising stars based on their most recent experience. Guys like Al Golden don't pass their muster.

If I'm the hot new coach, I'm not picking SU. Too high a hill top climb. If HCSS is out, we better pick quality over recent glitz. What we need is another Dick MacPherson.

TO HELL WITH THE FORWARD PASS!!!

3 YARDS AND A CLOUD OF DUST!!!

but that will make for 4th and 1...

THEN PUNT!!!!

 

[Townie72]

TO HELL WITH THE FORWARD PASS!!!

3 YARDS AND A CLOUD OF DUST!!!

but that will make for 4th and 1...

THEN PUNT!!!!

.

Not exactly what I am recommending.

But here's the scenario I see repeatedly as SU attempts to implement a Pass-oriented offense:

First Down - Incomplete
Second Down - Incomplete
Third Down - Complete but for only 7 Yards
Fourth Down - Punt

Or we get a couple of completions and some first downs, but cannot march down the field that way. The opposition defense, unconcerned with the run blitzes continually eventually knocking the starting QB out of the game at some point during the season. Or the QB take off running and is eventually injured and has to be replaced with another and another.

We turn the ball over to the opponents who run 2 plays to our one. They dominate time of possession. Our defense tires.

I see this all the time when teams are behind and are forced into passing alot. This is college, not the NFL. We don't have Joe Flacco or Tony Romo.

 

[KaiserUEO]

.

Not exactly what I am recommending.

But here's the scenario I see repeatedly as SU attempts to implement a Pass-oriented offense:

First Down - Incomplete
Second Down - Incomplete
Third Down - Complete but for only 7 Yards
Fourth Down - Punt

Or we get a couple of completions and some first downs, but cannot march down the field that way. The opposition defense, unconcerned with the run blitzes continually eventually knocking the starting QB out of the game at some point during the season. Or the QB take off running and is eventually injured and has to be replaced with another and another.

We turn the ball over to the opponents who run 2 plays to our one. They dominate time of possession. Our defense tires.

I see this all the time when teams are behind and are forced into passing alot. This is college, not the NFL. We don't have Joe Flacco or Tony Romo.

exactly right townie, this is college not the NFL.

and in college, there are 100s of QBs each year who manage to pass for what would be Syracuse school records for yards and TDs...and they never get a look in the NFL.

thats all this 'crowd' cares about. winning college games.

not developing a NFL ready QB. who gives a F. thats a crap shoot anyway and we actually might have a couple stick around as 2nd stringers ala Nassib.

we run conservative offenses and still cant complete passes. it has been proven time and time again that in college you can just spread everyone out...and complete 30 or 40 a game while putting up the same 30 or 40 as points.

lets do that.

curious as to why you picked a couple of C+, B-...QBs too...

 

[Millhouse]

.

Not exactly what I am recommending.

But here's the scenario I see repeatedly as SU attempts to implement a Pass-oriented offense:

First Down - Incomplete
Second Down - Incomplete
Third Down - Complete but for only 7 Yards
Fourth Down - Punt

Or we get a couple of completions and some first downs, but cannot march down the field that way. The opposition defense, unconcerned with the run blitzes continually eventually knocking the starting QB out of the game at some point during the season. Or the QB take off running and is eventually injured and has to be replaced with another and another.

We turn the ball over to the opponents who run 2 plays to our one. They dominate time of possession. Our defense tires.

I see this all the time when teams are behind and are forced into passing alot. This is college, not the NFL. We don't have Joe Flacco or Tony Romo.

why in the world would you envision that scenario?

where else is this the scenario?

i'm envisioning a scenario where on first down, they hit a ground out to the goalie and hope we get some free throws

 

[IthacaBarrel]

I'm influenced in this by the long-term and continuing circus associated with the Washington Redskins. The owner seems to think like the average SU fan always looking to pull a rabbit out of the hat with some sort of popular maneuver. The fan base -- the dumbest in all of sports --- buys in and buys tickets every year.

What you are recommending does sound reasonable.

But I still have concerns not limited to whether any Northeastern school can compete with the the Southern ones and the Midwestern monsters. SU's ceiling with the best coaching many be the second tier of the ACC. If that's true, I can't see a private school throwing big bucks chasing a goal that may not be achievable because of some basic problems (e.g. NYS high school football talent level)

Fair enough but given where we play, it may be an option worth pursuing as other options haven't gone very well as of late. The last 6 games of 2012, which seemed to be the best stretch we have seen in quite some time, displayed a very progressive offense that sure was well balanced but could really move the football through the air. One NFL lineman and a qb that came into his own senior year, with some crafty receivers who knew how to play the position, who were well coached and schemed open. Rob Moore is a heck of a position coach, who has gone from Buffalo to Oakland. He must be doing something right.

 

[GoSU96]

Fair enough but given where we play, it may be an option worth pursuing as other options haven't gone very well as of late. The last 6 games of 2012, which seemed to be the best stretch we have seen in quite some time, displayed a very progressive offense that sure was well balanced but could really move the football through the air. One NFL lineman and a qb that came into his own senior year, with some crafty receivers who knew how to play the position, who were well coached and schemed open. Rob Moore is a heck of a position coach, who has gone from Buffalo to Oakland. He must be doing something right.

Also this whoa is me stuff is nonsense. 2012 is proof that it can be done. It took four years of building, but impossible, far from it.

17th in offense, top 50 defense. That is a top 20/ten win profile.

Like you point out that was with a handful of next level guys, other than the left tackle none of them regulars or long for the league.

That's the profile of this team in two years. It's for Coyle to decide if this is the right staff to do it. If he thinks Shafer it the right guy to run the program, he has to provide the resources to upgrade the staff.

With all the churn in both the NFL and P5 there are going to be good position coaches available. Even if guys are short term hires, the future is now, coach 'em up.

 

[Townie72]

exactly right townie, this is college not the NFL.

and in college, there are 100s of QBs each year who manage to pass for what would be Syracuse school records for yards and TDs...and they never get a look in the NFL.

thats all this 'crowd' cares about. winning college games.

not developing a NFL ready QB. who gives a F. thats a crap shoot anyway and we actually might have a couple stick around as 2nd stringers ala Nassib.

we run conservative offenses and still cant complete passes. it has been proven time and time again that in college you can just spread everyone out...and complete 30 or 40 a game while putting up the same 30 or 40 as points.

lets do that.

curious as to why you picked a couple of C+, B-...QBs too...

With the exception of Nassib, we haven't had a good (not great, but good) QB since McNabb left. I call it the Great SU QB Drought. But the drought has been going on for so long, it's now almost a permanent climate.

I think Romo and Flacco are better than you do. They are especially good in unsettled situations. But picking the top QBs would be too easy. I wanted to make the point that even the second or third tiers of NFL QBs are excellent passers. Watching these guys thread needles on Sundays is incredible. You just don't see anything like it on Saturdays.

I'm still not there on Dungey. He's thrown a few rainbows and some of his completions have been minor miracles. I think he'll be very good ... but he' s not there yet in spite of the gaudy statistics.

 

[Townie72]

why in the world would you envision that scenario?

where else is this the scenario?

i'm envisioning a scenario where on first down, they hit a ground out to the goalie and hope we get some free throws

I see this scene played out multiple times in NCAA games on Saturday. It usually occurs in the 4th Qtr when a team has to pass to close a multi-score deficit. It rarely works.

NFL teams can do it. I've watched so many 40 yd drives to set up a field goal to win at the gun that I have started to become bored with the predictability.

 

[Townie72]

Also this whoa is me stuff is nonsense. 2012 is proof that it can be done. It took four years of building, but impossible, far from it.

17th in offense, top 50 defense. That is a top 20/ten win profile.

Like you point out that was with a handful of next level guys, other than the left tackle none of them regulars or long for the league.

That's the profile of this team in two years. It's for Coyle to decide if this is the right staff to do it. If he thinks Shafer it the right guy to run the program, he has to provide the resources to upgrade the staff.

With all the churn in both the NFL and P5 there are going to be good position coaches available. Even if guys are short term hires, the future is now, coach 'em up.

If HCSS has to go, I would hope that successful head coaching experience would be an absolute must-have for his replacement. No coordinators. No assistants.

I'd like to see us look very hard at guys like Golden and even guys like Ralph Friegen. They must have been a head coach and at one of these previous jobs they have to have been successful in a comparable situation. They can't come to SU and learn to be a HC. And success and failure are the ways someone learns how to be a head coach and what is needed to turn things around.

 

[IthacaBarrel]

Also this whoa is me stuff is nonsense. 2012 is proof that it can be done. It took four years of building, but impossible, far from it.

17th in offense, top 50 defense. That is a top 20/ten win profile.

Like you point out that was with a handful of next level guys, other than the left tackle none of them regulars or long for the league.

That's the profile of this team in two years. It's for Coyle to decide if this is the right staff to do it. If he thinks Shafer it the right guy to run the program, he has to provide the resources to upgrade the staff.

With all the churn in both the NFL and P5 there are going to be good position coaches available. Even if guys are short term hires, the future is now, coach 'em up.

Agreed and when evaluating Shafer it's tough to argue there have been many "flashes" of very good things to come, not many if any games you can point to the future being bright. I don't see some nice wins like 2009 and or 2010 that show promise, that is the issue. Not saying there won't be a couple coming in but he really needs to show something next 4 weeks.

Can't think of 1 game in 3 years where everything just clicked, I just can't

 

[Millhouse]

I see this scene played out multiple times in NCAA games on Saturday. It usually occurs in the 4th Qtr when a team has to pass to close a multi-score deficit. It rarely works.

NFL teams can do it. I've watched so many 40 yd drives to set up a field goal to win at the gun that I have started to become bored with the predictability.

teams that throw deep on the last play of the game rarely win.

teams that kneel on the last play of the game always win

no more long passes. we should start kneeling all the time!

maybe you should do more than watch teams that are down a lot in the 4th quarter

 

[KaiserUEO]

With the exception of Nassib, we haven't had a good (not great, but good) QB since McNabb left. I call it the Great SU QB Drought. But the drought has been going on for so long, it's now almost a permanent climate.

I think Romo and Flacco are better than you do. They are especially good in unsettled situations. But picking the top QBs would be too easy. I wanted to make the point that even the second or third tiers of NFL QBs are excellent passers. Watching these guys thread needles on Sundays is incredible. You just don't see anything like it on Saturdays.

I'm still not there on Dungey. He's thrown a few rainbows and some of his completions have been minor miracles. I think he'll be very good ... but he' s not there yet in spite of the gaudy statistics.

im totally with you here. hes leap years better than anything weve seen in the Great SU QB Draught, but a couple glasses of water wont hydrate a whole town. long way to go for sure. but im hopeful.

if you think romo should do more than drive jer-uh to the game on sunday, then yes...you think hes better than i. as for flacco, im a fan of his in a way. hes like the 2010s version of the 80s Phil Simms. he just gets it done and then you look at his #s and go...wow, better than i thought.

but there is no way you can convince me that throwing constantly with a spread/west coast offense, with a 2 or 3 step drop, that even with a crappy OL...cant be the right way to go in the future.