All-Time Syracuse Lineup

[moqui]

Your list is fine, but I am going to give you a slightly different look because there are other guys who should at least get a mention in this thread

Vic Hanson was a 3 time all american and the national player of the year his senior season, when he led SU to its second (pre-NCAA) national title. He was the all time leading scorer when he retired, averaging 14.1 ppg in an era when entire teams sometimes struggled to score 14 ppg. Grantland Rice named him to his starting team for the best players of the first half of the 20th century (along with George Mikan, Bob Kurland, Hank Luisetti and John Wooden). He remains the only man in the history of college athletics to be named to both the Basketball and College Football Halls of Fame. He was a forward at the time, but would be a guard in today's game.

there are other old timers who might merit discussion, but I think only Hanson has the resume to overcome the limitations of the very early period of basketball.

then you have the five SU players who have been named to the AP All American first team: Sherman Douglas, DC, Billy, Hak and Wes Johnson. You have all but Wes on your current list.

Dave Bing was also First Team AA on the USBWA and UPI lists, and Carmelo made it only on the Sporting News team. So that gives you a total of 8 guys. If you stick to your rigid position requirements (which doesn't really work for SU especially in the Boeheim era because he loves players who can play multiple positions), you can call Hanson a guard, DC a center and Anthony a PF (he was our top rebounder and best low post threat in 03, after all) and get them all in:

C: Coleman
PF: Anthony,Warrick
SF: Owens, Johnson
PG: Sherman
SG: Hanson, Bing

second point guard is easy - Pearl
second center is difficult - Bill Smith, Rosie Bouie, Rony Seikaly, and Rick Jackson all made at least honorable mention at least one time on at least one All American list. I would go with Rosie, because he is the only one of them to have made one or more lists more than one time.

no matter what we do, we have to leave some deserving players off the list.

 

[sutomcat]

Hey guys -

So I'm working on a project for a UConn blog. Basically, I'm taking 64 college basketball programs and creating an all-time lineup based on all of their best players ever. I've already come up with the lineups, but for some of the more notable schools (e.g. Syracuse), I wanted input from actual Syracuse fans. A few things to remember:

1) I'm a UConn fan, not a Syracuse fan. If I've missed some obvious player from the 60s, it's not because I'm a mean dumb jerk who hates puppies. If I seem like I'm being hypersensitive, that's because UCLA fans are really condescending.

2) This list is primarily concerned with how good the players were in college, though I do look at pro performance as well; it stands to reason that the truly great players will excel in the NBA. In addition, I'm trying to create the best possible lineup based on all of the players ever at each school. This means that players don't need to play the position they played in college. If a player is better suited to another position, (for example, a player best suited for power forward playing center in college) I might move that player to a different position than the on you're accustomed to. Furthermore, if there is a glut of talent at a certain position (in your case, point guard), I might make adjustments to make sure that the best players are represented.

3) The lineups will consist of two centers, four forwards, and four guards. Ideally, each team would have two power forwards, two small forwards, two point guards, and two shooting guards, but as I said, I'll make adjustments as necessary.

4) I want you to imagine that this team will actually be playing real games against the all-time teams of other schools, so choose accordingly. I have my lineup below. Please be kind.

C Rony Seikaly, Danny Schayes
F Derrick Coleman, Hakim Warrick
F Carmelo Anthony, Billy Owens
G Dave Bing, Lawrence Moten
G Pearl Washington, Sherman Douglas

Also have to go with my main man JW at the forward spot over Hak, even with The Block and The Teabag.

I would put Vic Hanson at one of the guard spots over Moten as well. Hanson was named by Grantland Rice as one of the 5 best college basketball players ever (with Mikan, Kurland, Luisetti and Wooden) in 1952, was a 3 time All American in basketball (and football) and was concensus player of the year his junior season, when he led Syracuse to a season where they dominated college basketball and were proclaimed the national champions by the experts of the day.

[edit: Moqui beat me with the Hanson reference, props to him for that]

 

[OttoMets]

Your list is fine, but I am going to give you a slightly different look because there are other guys who should at least get a mention in this thread

Vic Hanson was a 3 time all american and the national player of the year his senior season, when he led SU to its second (pre-NCAA) national title. He was the all time leading scorer when he retired, averaging 14.1 ppg in an era when entire teams sometimes struggled to score 14 ppg. Grantland Rice named him to his starting team for the best players of the first half of the 20th century (along with George Mikan, Bob Kurland, Hank Luisetti and John Wooden). He remains the only man in the history of college athletics to be named to both the Basketball and College Football Halls of Fame. He was a forward at the time, but would be a guard in today's game.

there are other old timers who might merit discussion, but I think only Hanson has the resume to overcome the limitations of the very early period of basketball.

then you have the five SU players who have been named to the AP All American first team: Sherman Douglas, DC, Billy, Hak and Wes Johnson. You have all but Wes on your current list.

Dave Bing was also First Team AA on the USBWA and UPI lists, and Carmelo made it only on the Sporting News team. So that gives you a total of 8 guys. If you stick to your rigid position requirements (which doesn't really work for SU especially in the Boeheim era because he loves players who can play multiple positions), you can call Hanson a guard, DC a center and Anthony a PF (he was our top rebounder and best low post threat in 03, after all) and get them all in:

C: Coleman
PF: Anthony,Warrick
SF: Owens, Johnson
PG: Sherman
SG: Hanson, Bing

second point guard is easy - Pearl
second center is difficult - Bill Smith, Rosie Bouie, Rony Seikaly, and Rick Jackson all made at least honorable mention at least one time on at least one All American list. I would go with Rosie, because he is the only one of them to have made one or more lists more than one time.

no matter what we do, we have to leave some deserving players off the list.

All-America is a rather arbitrary criterion - look at the makeup of the 1996 team. Wallace gets left off the first team only because voters liked the idea of honoring two centers and three guards. If voters aren't willing to pick a team based on the best player at each position, the meaning of that accolade is diminished.

 

[Eric15]

(As an aside, I recently saw a good chunk of the 1996 title game and Otis Hill was an absolute beast on the glass. I had forgotten just how ferocious of a rebounder that guy was.)

Otis Hill had tremendous footwork in the post. If he could have just been 3-4 inches taller, I think he could have been an NBA center for a decade.

 

[RF2044]

C: Bill Smith
PF: Coleman
SF: Anthony
PG: Sherman
SG: Bing

Smith is a player that most haven't seen, but pound for pound, I think he's the best center we've ever had. I put DC at the 4, which unfortunately excluded Wallace from the first team. He absolutely belongs, but I tried to go by the players' "real" position [which is difficult, because players like DC played 4 and 5 almost equally during his career; Owens played 4, 3, and 2, etc.]. Tough positional call on several multi-position players. If I'd put DC at the 5 on the first team, Wallace earns the spot at the 4.

Second Team
C: Seikaly
PF: Wallace
SF: Owens
SG: Moten
PG: Pearl

Real tough call putting Rony over Rosie here, but I think Rony's ridiculous scoring in the 1987 NCAA tournament [where did that come from?], and lengthy NBA career probably puts him slightly over the top on that call. Again, Rosie is deserving to be higher--pure judgement call.

Third Team

C: Bouie
PF: Warrick
SF: Addison
SG: Waiters
PG: Autry

Warrick slips to third team--which is hard to fathom, but there is unbelievable talent ahead of him at the 4.

Fourth Team
C: Etan
PF: Orr
SF: David Johnson
SG: Santifer
PG: Flynn

Fifth Team:

C: Onuaku
PF: Brown
SF: Shumpert
SG: Thompson
PG: GMac

Still left some very good, deserving players off the list.

 

[OttoMets]

Otis Hill had tremendous footwork in the post. If he could have just been 3-4 inches taller, I think he could have been an NBA center for a decade.

He seriously outplayed Erick Dampier, who was an NBA center for a decade.

We found some pretty talented kids in those '91 and '92 recruiting classes.

 

[OttoMets]

C: Bill Smith
PF: Coleman
SF: Anthony
PG: Sherman
SG: Bing

Smith is a player that most haven't seen, but pound for pound, I think he's the best center we've ever had. I put DC at the 4, which unfortunately excluded Wallace from the first team. He absolutely belongs, but I tried to go by the players' "real" position [which is difficult, because players like DC played 4 and 5 almost equally; Owens played 4, 3, and 2, etc.]. Tough positional call on several multi-position players. If I'd put DC at the 5 on the first team, Wallace earns the spot at the 4.

Second Team
C: Seikaly
PF: Wallace
SF: Owens
SG: Moten
PG: Pearl

Third Team

C: Bouie
PF: Warrick
SF: Addison
SG: Waiters
PG: Autry

Fourth Team
C: Etan
PF: Orr
SF: David Johnson
SG: Santifer
PG: Flynn

Fifth Team:

C: Onuaku
PF: Brown
SF: Shumpert
SG: Thompson
PG: GMac

Still left some very good, deserving players off the list.

Your third and fourth teams could beat anyone. (And on the right day, that fifth team could score 140 points.)

 

[RF2044]

Otis Hill had tremendous footwork in the post. If he could have just been 3-4 inches taller, I think he could have been an NBA center for a decade.

He was the last player cut from the Cavs in what would have been his rookie year. Too bad circumstances wouldn't have worked out a bit differently.

Agree 100% about the size thing--if Otis had been 6-10 [for example], he could have been a legitimate journeyman center, and probably would have had a nice NBA career.

 

[rrlbees]

Here is the correct answer.

C Rony Seikaly, Bill Smith
F Derrick Coleman, John Wallace
F Carmelo Anthony, Billy Owens
G Dave Bing, Vic Hanson
G Pearl Washington, Sherman Douglas


Sent using my Commodore 64

 

[moqui]

All-America is a rather arbitrary criterion - look at the makeup of the 1996 team. Wallace gets left off the first team only because voters liked the idea of honoring two centers and three guards. If voters aren't willing to pick a team based on the best player at each position, the meaning of that accolade is diminished.

remember the year the All Big East first team had 10 guys, and at least 8 of them were guards?

 

['72 Orange]

C: Bill Smith
PF: Coleman
SF: Anthony
PG: Sherman
SG: Bing

Smith is a player that most haven't seen, but pound for pound, I think he's the best center we've ever had. I put DC at the 4, which unfortunately excluded Wallace from the first team. He absolutely belongs, but I tried to go by the players' "real" position [which is difficult, because players like DC played 4 and 5 almost equally during his career; Owens played 4, 3, and 2, etc.]. Tough positional call on several multi-position players. If I'd put DC at the 5 on the first team, Wallace earns the spot at the 4.

Second Team
C: Seikaly
PF: Wallace
SF: Owens
SG: Moten
PG: Pearl

Real tough call putting Rony over Rosie here, but I think Rony's ridiculous scoring in the 1987 NCAA tournament [where did that come from?], and lengthy NBA career probably puts him slightly over the top on that call. Again, Rosie is deserving to be higher--pure judgement call.

Third Team

C: Bouie
PF: Warrick
SF: Addison
SG: Waiters
PG: Autry

Warrick slips to third team--which is hard to fathom, but there is unbelievable talent ahead of him at the 4.

Fourth Team
C: Etan
PF: Orr
SF: David Johnson
SG: Santifer
PG: Flynn

Fifth Team:

C: Onuaku
PF: Brown
SF: Shumpert
SG: Thompson
PG: GMac

Still left some very good, deserving players off the list.

I was at SU for all three years that Bill Smith played on the varsity. On those teams he was one of our 2 best weapons. If we had a "Bill Smith" on last year's team we could have won the whole thing. Having said that I don't think you could place him ahead of Rony or Bouie. His stats were skewed because he did not have as good and deep a supporting cast that the other centers enjoyed, so by necessity much of the scoring & rebounding was attributable to him. In his sophmore year Smith was a better player than Rony who was a project, but I think Rony surpassed Bill by the time his SU career ended. I have to admit that I did not see nearly as many of Bouie's games, but my recollection was that he was a much better athelete and a more skillful post player. JMHO.

 

[ADimeBack]

All-America is a rather arbitrary criterion - look at the makeup of the 1996 team. Wallace gets left off the first team only because voters liked the idea of honoring two centers and three guards. If voters aren't willing to pick a team based on the best player at each position, the meaning of that accolade is diminished.

I disagree. Honoring the 5 (or in this case, 6) best players in the country is much more instructive about the quality of those players than making an all-star team out of all of the players in the country. That being said, the race was a lot tougher in 1996 than it was in 2005. The '96 team had three Hall of Famers, and led up to arguably the deepest draft in NBA history. I've come around on Wallace v Warrick.

 

[moqui]

SU all defensive team

PG Jason Hart
SG Andy Rautins
SF Wes Johnson
PF Derrick Coleman
C Etan Thomas

 

[Syracusian]

SU all defensive team

PG Jason Hart
SG Andy Rautins
SF Wes Johnson
PF Derrick Coleman
C Etan Thomas

The best part about the all-defensive team is that we had two separate times where we had two people on that list on the same team (not counting the several seasons Hart/Thomas played together). Johnson and Coleman would probably make the all-offensive team as well!

 

[Upstate]

SU all defensive team

PG Jason Hart
SG Andy Rautins
SF Wes Johnson
PF Derrick Coleman
C Etan Thomas

Wes had a ton of problems covering his side, but his rebounding and weakside shot blocking ability was tremendous

 

[Syracusian]

Wes had a ton of problems covering his side, but his rebounding and weakside shot blocking ability was tremendous

I don't think many people could jump as fast or as high as Wes could in that 2009/2010 season. What an amazing year he had.

 

[moqui]

Wes had a ton of problems covering his side, but his rebounding and weakside shot blocking ability was tremendous

going back 30 years, Wes and DC are the only SU forwards to go 50/50 in blocks and steals in a single season (LeRon Ellis also did it as a center; Damone Brown was very close in his much under-appreciated senior season - missed by 2 blocks). Wes was just 2 steals away from going 60/60.

 

[Zelda Zonk]

If we're talking about a virtual team, to play a virtual game against another virtual team, I might want D Nichols or Wes instead of Moten. Mixed with those other guys? Sure. Call me crazy. Moten had a better career, but the senior years of Nich or Wes on a team with Coleman, Pearl, etc. would be pretty hot.

 

[OrangeDW]

Hey guys -

So I'm working on a project for a UConn blog. Basically, I'm taking 64 college basketball programs and creating an all-time lineup based on all of their best players ever. I've already come up with the lineups, but for some of the more notable schools (e.g. Syracuse), I wanted input from actual Syracuse fans. A few things to remember:

1) I'm a UConn fan, not a Syracuse fan. If I've missed some obvious player from the 60s, it's not because I'm a mean dumb jerk who hates puppies. If I seem like I'm being hypersensitive, that's because UCLA fans are really condescending.

2) This list is primarily concerned with how good the players were in college, though I do look at pro performance as well; it stands to reason that the truly great players will excel in the NBA. In addition, I'm trying to create the best possible lineup based on all of the players ever at each school. This means that players don't need to play the position they played in college. If a player is better suited to another position, (for example, a player best suited for power forward playing center in college) I might move that player to a different position than the on you're accustomed to. Furthermore, if there is a glut of talent at a certain position (in your case, point guard), I might make adjustments to make sure that the best players are represented.

3) The lineups will consist of two centers, four forwards, and four guards. Ideally, each team would have two power forwards, two small forwards, two point guards, and two shooting guards, but as I said, I'll make adjustments as necessary.

4) I want you to imagine that this team will actually be playing real games against the all-time teams of other schools, so choose accordingly. I have my lineup below. Please be kind.

C Rony Seikaly, Danny Schayes
F Derrick Coleman, Hakim Warrick
F Carmelo Anthony, Billy Owens
G Dave Bing, Lawrence Moten
G Pearl Washington, Sherman Douglas

My team:
PG Sherman Douglas, Pearl Washington
SG Dave Bing, Lawrence Moten
SF Carmelo Anthony, Billy Owens
PF John Wallace, Hakim Warrick
C Derrick Coleman, Rony Seikaly

Note - Coleman played Center his entire Junior year, so to me he qualifies there, and it's a way to not leave off Warrick. I'd have Wallace slightly ahead of Warrick, but that's very debatable.

 

[EastCoast2]

1) Ennis
2) Gbinije
3) Fair
4) Grant
5) Coleman

 

[Gabjon]

1) Ennis
2) Gbinije
3) Fair
4) Grant
5) Coleman

That 40-0 2014 run was quite amazing!

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk 2

 

[OttoMets]

remember the year the All Big East first team had 10 guys, and at least 8 of them were guards?

Sure do - thought of mentioning that (but it's even worse). At least the AP capped the team at five players.

It wouldn't be so bad to mix up forwards and guards, but it'd be most fair to only have two of each.

 

[OttoMets]

I disagree. Honoring the 5 (or in this case, 6) best players in the country is much more instructive about the quality of those players than making an all-star team out of all of the players in the country. That being said, the race was a lot tougher in 1996 than it was in 2005. The '96 team had three Hall of Famers, and led up to arguably the deepest draft in NBA history. I've come around on Wallace v Warrick.

Agree about the differing quality of different groups - especially 1996, which was a particularly strong year.

I guess I see the point (in a year with weak bigs, for instance, it'd seem silly to have Nerlens Noel or Mitch McGary as a first-teamer simply by virtue of his being a center), but the All America team wouldn't carry that team name if it weren't intended to be representative of all five (or at least three broader) positions on the court.

Neither way (listing the top five or having a strict team) is a perfect idea.

 

[OttoMets]

going back 30 years, Wes and DC are the only SU forwards to go 50/50 in blocks and steals in a single season (LeRon Ellis also did it as a center; Damone Brown was very close in his much under-appreciated senior season - missed by 2 blocks). Wes was just 2 steals away from going 60/60.

And he surely would've gotten those two if he'd effectively played more than 3/4ths of the season with two healthy hands. (Or if we'd just not coughed up a late lead against Butler.)

But he had so much difficulty covering his wing - memories of Georgetown at the Garden and Louisville...yikes. Then again, we haven't had a history of strong defenders at the three.

I'd still put Southerland into that spot, though he had his difficulties at times (read: the first two months of this calendar year).

 

[Madbiker]

On the 1988-89 Elite 8 team Coleman actually played mostly center. I'd have Coleman as the 2nd center over Schayes and include John Wallace at forward.