Class of 2016 Andrew White iii... the third

[RF2044]

I think what they see are visions of MCW. After him, every guy we bring in who's around 6'6"-6'7", people think will be the next big SU guard. Not everyone that size has MCW's handle and talent. Have people looked at AW--he's a muscular 6'7" too. He doesn't have the lateral quickness to play up top in the 2-3, plus what you said. Square peg in round hole for guard but he clearly would fill a huge area of need at small forward and could play some 2 offensively, if needed. All the minutes he'd get at wing would help him showcase his talents to the NBA and help us contend again too.

I definitely think that's part of it.

Problem is, it would be bad news on both offense and defense in our system to have AW in the backcourt. Your post is spot on.

 

[cusetown1]

I'm not a coach or anything but how much quickness do you need to play top of the zone? It wasn't like MCW was lightning quick or even Cooney for that matter. But 6'6" and 6'7" top of the zone I'd really love to see at times .

 

[Shenexon]

I guess that could be taken either way. As "we have everyone we're going to have." Or "All the recruiting we're going to do we've done. Now just waiting for the kid to commit. "

Could also be a message from JB to the Whites: recruiting is complete, those that want to play should be there when JB gets back.

 

[RF2044]

I'm not a coach or anything but how much quickness do you need to play top of the zone? It wasn't like MCW was lightning quick or even Cooney for that matter. But 6'6" and 6'7" top of the zone I'd really love to see at times .

Lateral mobility is VERY important at the top of the zone. As is positioning and understanding your assignments. There's a lot more to it than just height.

MCW wasn't a water bug type guard, but he was plenty quick and had a knack for forcing turnovers due to good anticipation.

 

[reedny]

I'm not a coach or anything but how much quickness do you need to play top of the zone? It wasn't like MCW was lightning quick or even Cooney for that matter. But 6'6" and 6'7" top of the zone I'd really love to see at times .

A lot (especially laterally). SU's zone guards have to be able to stay close enough to opposing guards to keep them from shooting, but also stay in front of them so they don't get in the lane and cause havoc (all kinds of difficult switching).

Do you think AW (at 6'7 - 230) would be able to stay in front of Joel Berry or Marcus Paige (UNC), or Snider or Louis (LV), or Hall or Perrantes (UVA), or Grayson Allen? That's not even fair. He's built to shoot (SF rotating up to the wing on O), and rebound the weak side on D. No way he checks ACC guards for long periods.

 

[Brooky03]

Lateral mobility is VERY important at the top of the zone. As is positioning and understanding your assignments. There's a lot more to it than just height.

MCW wasn't a water bug type guard, but he was plenty quick and had a knack for forcing turnovers due to good anticipation.

Gbinije wouldn't be classified as 'quick' but he managed to transition from forward to SG. Now, I agree that White would see most of his minutes at SF here, but you don't think he's equally as mobile as Gbinije?

 

[cusetown1]

Lateral mobility is VERY important at the top of the zone. As is positioning and understanding your assignments. There's a lot more to it than just height.

MCW wasn't a water bug type guard, but he was plenty quick and had a knack for forcing turnovers due to good anticipation.

I'm not saying it isn't . But I would bet dollars to donuts if white does come there will be times you will see both him and Battle top of the zone, lateral quickness is just one skill needed.

 

[RF2044]

I'm not saying it isn't . But I would bet dollars to donuts if white does come there will be times you will see both him and Battle top of the zone, lateral quickness is just one skill needed.

I'd take that bet. White will provide depth as the fourth guard in what will primarily be a three guard rotation.

 

[RF2044]

Gbinije wouldn't be classified as 'quick' but he managed to transition from forward to SG. Now, I agree that White would see most of his minutes at SF here, but you don't think he's equally as mobile as Gbinije?

Straight line speed, maybe. Lateral mobility, no. White is a big, strong guy. His body type is nothing like Gbinije's.

Other than them both being 6-7, there really aren't too many other similarities between those two players.

 

[supp]

I'm not a coach or anything but how much quickness do you need to play top of the zone? It wasn't like MCW was lightning quick or even Cooney for that matter. But 6'6" and 6'7" top of the zone I'd really love to see at times .

In Boeheim's zone, the 3 actually covers far more ground, from the bucket to the corner and up to the wing. That's why usually the most athletic players we've had have been at the forward positions. By contrast, the responsibilities of the 2 are more limited when it comes to lateral mobility if it's such an issue for this kid.

 

[Brooky03]

Straight line speed, maybe. Lateral mobility, no. White is a big, strong guy. His body type is nothing like Gbinije's.

Other than them both being 6-7, there really aren't too many other similarities between those two players.

Yeah, but he's far from hulking. We're talking about the difference of roughly 15 pounds or less and he moves pretty well in the highlights I've seen so far.

 

[reedny]

In Boeheim's zone, the 3 actually covers far more ground, from the bucket to the corner and up to the wing. That's why usually the most athletic players we've had have been at the forward positions. By contrast, the responsibilities of the 2 are more limited when it comes to lateral mobility if it's such an issue for this kid.

All the zone positions require some mobility. Even the Center has to move up to the FL to cover a penetrating guard (what we have to avoid), or all the way out to the baseline corner to cover a shooter if the strong side forward has to move up. SF is no different ... although wing to corner isn't that big a stretch AND the SF is guarding a forward not an ACC guard.

Totally different picture up top against ACC guards, who are looking to get by the defender and into the lane for passes, lobs, tear drops (and other mayhem).

A 6'7 SF with a bulky build (for rebounding) has no business checking ACC guards up top, especially for a coach who's famous for jerking guys off the floor for defensive lapses.

 

[Orangeman13]

He's right. The recruiting is finished...and has been for a while. He's coming to 'Cuse.

 

[Day2]

'pure' has nothing to do with it. Promising minutes to anybody other than a transcendent talent is just not a smart move in most cases. JB's smarter than that.

OK. Explain DC2 and Fab Melo starting as freshman.

 

[orangefog]

I think the top of the zone requires lateral quickness and speed, active hands and above all of that, an understanding of the flow of the other team and your own team. Guys like Rautins and even Cooney were really good at knowing when to attack and knowing where the next pass was going. I am not sure if White has what it takes to play the top of the zone, but I do trust RF's opinion. Hopefully White surprises, assuming he is coming, and he is better laterally than we expected and he can give us a few minutes at guard, so that we can get all of our best players on the court together without losing too much defensively.

 

[Brooky03]

OK. Explain DC2 and Fab Melo starting as freshman.

Easy. Coleman was a top Center (#1?) in his recruiting class and his only competition was Sophomore Christmas who was still transitioning back and forth between PF and C, if memory serves me, and Keita who definitely wasn't going to get the start. Coleman started because JB probably wanted to boost his confidence. If Coleman played well, he stayed in. If Coleman played poorly, he got yanked. It's not like Christmas was much better than Coleman at that point in their careers.

Fab started because he was a 7 footer with a wide body. Kind of a no brainer. Jackson played PF, so who was going to start in his place lol? Freshman Keita?

 

[Ryand877]

He's right. The recruiting is finished...and has been for a while. He's coming to 'Cuse.

I just wish he would announce already!

 

[supp]

All the zone positions require some mobility. Even the Center has to move up to the FL to cover a penetrating guard (what we have to avoid), or all the way out to the baseline corner to cover a shooter if the strong side forward has to move up. SF is no different ... although wing to corner isn't that big a stretch AND the SF is guarding a forward not an ACC guard.

Totally different picture up top against ACC guards, who are looking to get by the defender and into the lane for passes, lobs, tear drops (and other mayhem).

A 6'7 SF with a bulky build (for rebounding) has no business checking ACC guards up top, especially for a coach who's famous for jerking guys off the floor for defensive lapses.

Historically, IthacaMatt isn't wrong. Boeheim has usually put his most limited athletes or his athletes with certain skills limitations at the 2 (or 5). Based on the scouting reports given here about this kid, maybe he isn't a good fit? I've got no idea and no business making that judgment but if he is as limited athletically as some have claimed, he's going to have a tough adjustment to make on defense.

 

[Day2]

He's right. The recruiting is finished...and has been for a while. He's coming to 'Cuse.

You don't have to respond to every post with a variation of the same statement like Donald Trump getting called out on Twitter. You can, but I'm just saying you don't have to.

 

[Day2]

Easy. Coleman was a top Center (#1?) in his recruiting class and his only competition was Sophomore Christmas who was still transitioning back and forth between PF and C, if memory serves me, and Keita who definitely wasn't going to get the start. Coleman started because JB probably wanted to boost his confidence. If Coleman played well, he stayed in. If Coleman played poorly, he got yanked. It's not like Christmas was much better than Coleman at that point in their careers.

Fab started because he was a 7 footer with a wide body. Kind of a no brainer. Jackson played PF, so who was going to start in his place lol? Freshman Keita?

Easy, huh? Then why did Keita get more minutes?

Kind of a no-brainer, you say? Again, why did Keita play more? And Jackson did get some minutes at C.

Neither Coleman nor Melo played significant minutes as freshman, yet JB kept trotting them out there to start every game. Now you said it wouldn't be a smart move to guarantee players a spot in the starting lineup, but how was it smart to keep starting those guys for any other reason?

 

[jordoo]

This is still going on? What figured it would be officially announced by the time I got back. Oh well between AW3 and TT they will get us right to the start of fball season.

 

[reedny]

Historically, IthacaMatt isn't wrong. Boeheim has usually put his most limited athletes or his athletes with certain skills limitations at the 2 (or 5). Based on the scouting reports given here about this kid, maybe he isn't a good fit? I've got no idea and no business making that judgment but if he is as limited athletically as some have claimed, he's going to have a tough adjustment to make on defense.

Not sure the 2 is a dumping spot for unathletic players. In fact, SU's zone is successful only when we keep opposing guards out of the lane -- and that requires players who can stay close enough to close out on shooters and still prevent them from penetrating (Battle fits the bill perfectly).

AW3 is a talented BB player, no doubt. He'll have all he can handle on D rotating back and forth between the wing and the baseline. But at 6'7 220-230, he's about the same size as Tyler Roberson - maybe a little bulkier. Asking a player built like that to stay in front of ACC guards for longer than a few possessions is inviting a mismatch and creating a defensive liability.

I don't see it.

 

[RF2044]

Not sure the 2 is a dumping spot for unathletic players. SU's zone is only successful when we keep opposing guards out of the lane -- that requires players that can stay close enough to close out on shooters and still prevent them from penetrating.

AW3 is a talented BB player, no doubt. He'll have all he can handle on D rotating back and forth between the wing and the baseline. But at 6'7 220-230, he's about the same size as Tyler Roberson - maybe a little bulkier. Asking a player built like that to stay in front of ACC guards for longer than a few possessions is inviting a mismatch and creating a defensive liability.

I don't see it.

Spot on. We've only played athletically limited players at the 2 when we haven't had other, better options to plug in there [i.e., Cipolla in 1996].

Your second paragraph sums the issues up perfectly re: AW playing up top.

 

[Brooky03]

Easy, huh? Then why did Keita get more minutes?

Kind of a no-brainer, you say? Again, why did Keita play more? And Jackson did get some minutes at C.

Neither Coleman nor Melo played significant minutes as freshman, yet JB kept trotting them out there to start every game. Now you said it wouldn't be a smart move to guarantee players a spot in the starting lineup, but how was it smart to keep starting those guys for any other reason?

There could be tons of reasons other than a promise, but upside is the most obvious reason (more so than a promise). Put simply, Coleman and Fab playing their best basketball at that point in their careers yielded a much more productive player than Keita playing his best basketball. Keita's minutes are also artificially inflated in both cases. Coleman only played a little more than half the season before he went down and Fab, too, missed a few games and started dealing with an injury halfway through the season. Not to mention, foul trouble was another big factor limiting DC2 and Fab's minutes.

Freshman improve when they get minutes on the court. You tell me how it's more likely that Jim promised both of these guys starting roles than it is that he simply wanted to give his Centers with high upsides more minutes in order to develop?

 

[CusefanATL]

Spot on. We've only played athletically limited players at the 2 when we haven't had other, better options to plug in there [i.e., Cipolla in 1996].

Your second paragraph sums the issues up perfectly re: AW playing up top.

1 of our best zone defenders was limited athletically - Rautins. he did not have the lateral quickness that most others do.