Class of 2016 Andrew White iii... the third

[Brooky03]

Not sure the 2 is a dumping spot for unathletic players. In fact, SU's zone is successful only when we keep opposing guards out of the lane -- and that requires players who can stay close enough to close out on shooters and still prevent them from penetrating (Battle fits the bill perfectly).

AW3 is a talented BB player, no doubt. He'll have all he can handle on D rotating back and forth between the wing and the baseline. But at 6'7 220-230, he's about the same size as Tyler Roberson - maybe a little bulkier. Asking a player built like that to stay in front of ACC guards for longer than a few possessions is inviting a mismatch and creating a defensive liability.

I don't see it.

220 is probably spot on. 230 makes him seem bigger than he is. For reference, White has about 10 pounds on Tyus Battle.

White looks pretty cut, and everybody seems to agree that he's a strong dude. Muscle makes you faster, not slower.

 

[RF2044]

1 of our best zone defenders was limited athletically - Rautins. he did not have the lateral quickness that most others do.

I'll disagree with your premise. Rautins wasn't a skywalker, but he moved his feet well and had quick hands. That's like saying MCW was "limited athletically" because he wasn't Jonny Flynn.

He wasn't "limited," he just wasn't a jumping jack. A guy like Cippola was far more limited athletically than Rautins.

 

[normaliswear]

This is still going on? What figured it would be officially announced by the time I got back. Oh well between AW3 and TT they will get us right to the start of fball season.

Do ya mean the AW3 recruitment or the never ending "can he play 2 or can't he?" debate?

 

[reedny]

220 is probably spot on. 230 makes him seem bigger than he is. For reference, White has about 10 pounds on Tyus Battle.

White looks pretty cut, and everybody seems to agree that he's a strong dude. Muscle makes you faster, not slower.

Well, by comparison, White and Roberson both have an inch or two and 10+ pounds on Battle. Battle's cat quick. Roberson and White are built more for the baseline and I don't see either of them checking ACC guards.

 

[Brooky03]

Well, by comparison, White and Roberson both have an inch or two and 10+ pounds on Battle. Battle's cat quick. Roberson and White are built more for the baseline and I don't see either of them checking ACC guards.

Silent G did it. Yes, he's lighter than White, but foot speed wasn't his strength.

 

[normaliswear]

Now that I mocked it I might as well participate. I admit I have only seen AW3 play in highlights. But he seems quick enough to be at least an average defender at the 2. But my main reason for thinking he'll play at least a bit there is that's the only spot we have enough minutes available. Maybe he can get 20 min at forward if TT and MM get almost none, but he still have to be able to play at least 10 min at the 2. Maybe he only plays sg when we press so it's more a matter or long arms and straight line speed being disruptive.

 

[Orangeman13]

You don't have to respond to every post with a variation of the same statement like Donald Trump getting called out on Twitter. You can, but I'm just saying you don't have to.

I know. Just trying to calm some of the suicidal maniacs down lol

 

[reedny]

Silent G did it. Yes, he's lighter than White, but foot speed wasn't his strength.

He did it, but only because we had no other options. He was much better suited, of course, to SF. It took him almost 2 years to adapt to top-zone defense .. trying to stop penetration down the mid line. Some games were better than others ... against UNC Berry was in the lane at will.

I'm not interested in another out-of-position experiment this year. We have someone (TB) who can play the spot perfectly .. 6'6, quick on D, volume scorer who can get in the lane and create. If his 3 pt. shot comes around in January/February, AW3 as a "guard" will be a distant memory. AW is a prototypical 3 for us ... 6'7, 220+, big/strong enough to rebound the weak side; good shooter; hopefully serviceable on D from the baseline to the wing (that's going to be an adjustment).

 

[the villager]

He's right. The recruiting is finished...and has been for a while. He's coming to 'Cuse.

As has been said in New York's" Peppermint Village " the only sure thing is "Death and Taxes" and not sure about taxes any more.

 

[Scotch]

I know. Just trying to calm some of the suicidal maniacs down lol

As one of those maniacs, it's ok if you want to continue...

 

[Brooky03]

He did it, but only because we had no other options. He was much better suited, of course, to SF. It took him almost 2 years to adapt to top-zone defense .. trying to stop penetration down the mid line. Some games were better than others ... against UNC Berry was in the lane at will.

I'm not interested in another out-of-position experiment this year. We have someone (TB) who can play the spot perfectly .. 6'6, quick on D, volume scorer who can get in the lane and create. If his 3 pt. shot comes around in January/February, AW3 as a "guard" will be a distant memory. AW is a prototypical 3 for us ... 6'7, 220+, big/strong enough to rebound the weak side; good shooter; hopefully serviceable on D from the baseline to the wing (that's going to be an adjustment).

For the record, I'm not advocating that White play the majority of his minutes at SG.

 

[Day2]

There could be tons of reasons other than a promise, but upside is the most obvious reason (more so than a promise). Put simply, Coleman and Fab playing their best basketball at that point in their careers yielded a much more productive player than Keita playing his best basketball. Keita's minutes are also artificially inflated in both cases. Coleman only played a little more than half the season before he went down and Fab, too, missed a few games and started dealing with an injury halfway through the season. Not to mention, foul trouble was another big factor limiting DC2 and Fab's minutes.

Freshman improve when they get minutes on the court. You tell me how it's more likely that Jim promised both of these guys starting roles than it is that he simply wanted to give his Centers with high upsides more minutes in order to develop?

Keita didn't see a significant enough uptick in minutes in either season for your premise to hold up. And now you're blaming foul trouble? Perhaps you were following Syracuse basketball on an alternate timeline.

DC2 and Melo both played about 10 MPG as freshman. Their development would have been the same whether they were getting those minutes as starters or coming off the bench.

 

[reedny]

For the record, I'm not advocating that White play the majority of his minutes at SG.

NP. I enjoy the discussion either way. Did I mention that White's 20+ lbs. heavier than G?

And actually, I think (while we're treading water here) the more intriguing question is where (and what position) TL is going to play. We've been over it, yes. But it's an interesting question because Lydon's so versatile. And many posters (for good reason) think he's the most talented player on the floor. I see him at PF, mostly. And he can sub the 3. RF thinks he'll play C in end-game situations (free throw shooting). I'm thinking he's more likely to play PF in those situations ... since Roberson's FT shooting is down to 57% and has declined every year.

 

[kuethstheman]

Keita didn't see a significant enough uptick in minutes in either season for your premise to hold up. And now you're blaming foul trouble? Perhaps you were following Syracuse basketball on an alternate timeline.

DC2 and Melo both played about 10 MPG as freshman. Their development would have been the same whether they were getting those minutes as starters or coming off the bench.

JB's token-starter thing hasn't always been subject to logic to the point where I think only he knows why he's doing it. I don't think any promise to DC that JB might have made five years ago would still be operative. If he didn't want to start him for his own reasons, he wouldn't have started DC last season.

 

[normaliswear]

JB's token-starter thing hasn't always been subject to logic to the point where I think only he knows why he's doing it. I don't think any promise to DC that JB might have made five years ago would still be operative. If he didn't want to start him for his own reasons, he wouldn't have started DC last season.

Last season might be a bad example. DC was the only C on the roster capable of playing against non-cupcake competition. Lydon did an admirable job as backup C when he wasn't at all suited for the job.

 

[kuethstheman]

Last season might be a bad example. DC was the only C on the roster capable of playing against non-cupcake competition. Lydon did an admirable job as backup C when he wasn't at all suited for the job.

That doesn't explain why JB started DC but pulled him almost immediately a bunch of times. If he was good enough to play the first two minutes, why wasn't he good enough to play the third? Flip side: If Tyler was good enough to play C in the third minute, why not the first two?

 

[Zelda Zonk]

Maybe it's just my horrid memory, but it sure as heck seemed like Craig Forth was 'promised' a starting role from the start. Maybe it was just his 'attitude and work ethic' that ingratiated him to JB.

I'm not sure I get all the arguments about where AW3 will/should/can/can't play for us. I would thing AW3, himself, would prefer to play on he back line defensively, as that would expose any lateral quickness issues to NBA scouts less than if he were trying to stop guard penetration at the top. Plus, he's a 'tremendous' rebounder. As for offensive positioning, it seems it's just a matter of nomenclature, as I expect him to have a game similar to southerland — not much dribbling. Whether you call that a 2 or 3 seems irrelevant. If Villanova can have a "three guard offense," why can't we play with "two SGs?"

Who gets the minutes and where? Kinda think AW3 should start over Lydon. Only because it's not really a 'demotion' for Lydon, it's just not a promotion in status. And he's already got 'tremendous, tremendous' ink/pub. And, at the end of the game, the minutes will be decided by performance In That Particular Game.

One question, though- why wasn't Roberson a better option at 'emergency 5' than Lydon last year? With Lydon at 4? Is there something that Roberson just wasn't getting with the defensive shifts or something? I thought he was more physically mature than Lydon. I kinda thought it was JB falling in love with the Draymond Green model, and hoping Lydon could be similarly versatile, but... It just looked bad too often.

 

[Brooky03]

Keita didn't see a significant enough uptick in minutes in either season for your premise to hold up. And now you're blaming foul trouble? Perhaps you were following Syracuse basketball on an alternate timeline.

DC2 and Melo both played about 10 MPG as freshman. Their development would have been the same whether they were getting those minutes as starters or coming off the bench.

So, what's your argument? The premise that a promise that they would start is the only explanation is quite frankly an incredibly poor inference based on what transpired. You conveniently left out other parts of my arguments.

I was going to break this down for you piece by piece (had the paragraphs typed and everything) but it's simple. Fab Melo and Dajuan Coleman had more talent than Baye Keita. That's a fact. Keita had the experience edge on Coleman, was more consistent than both as Freshman, and avoided foul trouble better, but couldn't match either in upside. He wasn't even particularly close. That is why Keita waited on the bench while those two were out there for the opening tip. Either one of them could start a game on fire and get the team some unexpected points. Keita couldn't do that. Fab was 7 feet tall and just all-around big. Keita was not. Coleman was inconsistent but showed scoring flashes Keita could only dream of. Coleman rebounded considerably better. These are all reasons to start them over Keita; all of which have nothing to do with a supposed promise.

Were they the best Centers on the team when they were Freshman? No. But Rick was playing PF and Christmas was just starting the transition from PF. If you think a promise is what got them to play over Keita, then I don't know what to tell you. If that's sincerely your thought process, though, it's odd that you'd question how much I've watched the team play.

 

[Brooky03]

NP. I enjoy the discussion either way. Did I mention that White's 20+ lbs. heavier than G?

And actually, I think (while we're treading water here) the more intriguing question is where (and what position) TL is going to play. We've been over it, yes. But it's an interesting question because Lydon's so versatile. And many posters (for good reason) think he's the most talented player on the floor. I see him at PF, mostly. And he can sub the 3. RF thinks he'll play C in end-game situations (free throw shooting). I'm thinking he's more likely to play PF in those situations ... since Roberson's FT shooting is down to 57% and has declined every year.

Assuming we land White and he, Roberson, and Lydon see +/- 30mpg, this is the PT breakdown I would envision

White- 20mpg at SF, 10mpg at SG
Lydon - 20mpg at SF, 10mpg at PF
Roberson - 30 mpg at PF

I don't think Lydon will play any Center. At least, I seriously hope he doesn't have to play any Center.

 

[asj410]

 

[FrancoPizza]

I'm not a coach or anything but how much quickness do you need to play top of the zone?

simple. You need to be able to cover 2 players at the same time.

 

[RF2044]

So O13, at a sufficient level of being generic so as to protect your sources:

1. What accounts for the hold up on AW3 pulling the trigger?
2. When might we expect him to make it official?

Obligatory qualifier: not doubting you or the veracity of your sources, not holding your feet to the fire on predictions, etc. Just curious to get your input on the two questions above.

 

[reedny]

Maybe it's just my horrid memory, but it sure as heck seemed like Craig Forth was 'promised' a starting role from the start. Maybe it was just his 'attitude and work ethic' that ingratiated him to JB.

I'm not sure I get all the arguments about where AW3 will/should/can/can't play for us. I would thing AW3, himself, would prefer to play on he back line defensively, as that would expose any lateral quickness issues to NBA scouts less than if he were trying to stop guard penetration at the top. Plus, he's a 'tremendous' rebounder. As for offensive positioning, it seems it's just a matter of nomenclature, as I expect him to have a game similar to southerland — not much dribbling. Whether you call that a 2 or 3 seems irrelevant. If Villanova can have a "three guard offense," why can't we play with "two SGs?"

Who gets the minutes and where? Kinda think AW3 should start over Lydon. Only because it's not really a 'demotion' for Lydon, it's just not a promotion in status. And he's already got 'tremendous, tremendous' ink/pub. And, at the end of the game, the minutes will be decided by performance In That Particular Game.

One question, though- why wasn't Roberson a better option at 'emergency 5' than Lydon last year? With Lydon at 4? Is there something that Roberson just wasn't getting with the defensive shifts or something? I thought he was more physically mature than Lydon. I kinda thought it was JB falling in love with the Draymond Green model, and hoping Lydon could be similarly versatile, but... It just looked bad too often.

I would toss all that (red) out this year. Although no one should rule out TL in the middle for small ball, JB now has THREE very solid options in the middle ... all of whom are physically better suited to anchor the zone than TL. Yes he can play there and with his offensive skills and weakside defensive talent ... I can see it in matchup-spots. But unlike last year when we were rotating almost the whole team up a position because of holes, we've got plenty of depth in the front court and back court for guys to play natural positions. And 7'2 makes the zone a lethal weapon.

 

[Orangeman13]

So O13, at a sufficient level of being generic so as to protect your sources:

1. What accounts for the hold up on AW3 pulling the trigger?
2. When might we expect him to make it official?

Obligatory qualifier: not doubting you or the veracity of your sources, not holding your feet to the fire on predictions, etc. Just curious to get your input on the two questions above.

1) not easy to discuss guaranteed roles with JB in Rio
2) when olympics are finished or sooner if AW3 wants to accept current terms. I have heard there is no reason for JB to recruit him (make any more promises than he has) because no major team can promise more. Sure VCU could but I've heard he's ruled them out as well as Miami. Comes from the same source that told me he wasn't going to Michigan State

 

[dyedorange]

1) not easy to discuss guaranteed roles with JB in Rio
2) when olympics are finished or sooner if AW3 wants to accept current terms. I have heard there is no reason for JB to recruit him (make any more promises than he has) because no major team can promise more. Sure VCU could but I've heard he's ruled them out as well as Miami. Comes from the same source that told me he wasn't going to Michigan State

If #2 is the case, that leaves a bit of a sour taste, IMO. He doesn't have a better deal on the table, but he's going to milk the SU situation in the hopes of more guarantees, and right up until the start of practice? Not exactly a team-building move. Everybody has the right to pursue the best deal they can, but there comes a point in every negotiation where pushing further has a cost in lost trust and good will. I agree with everyone who's said we need this guy for an NC run, and I remain optimistic that'll ultimately join the team, but I don't like how the AW camp has handled this