As fired up as people seem to be getting from Friday

[Aweart23]

Fiametta is a fullback whos career was best known for getting stuffed on 3 or 4 handoffs from inside the 1, are you really saying he was some sort of weapon?
Also if Lemon is a Marrone Recruit then Brinkley is a Grob recruit because both brought them in once the previous coach had been fired and neither were on campus yet. I am sorry but if you honestly believe Damien Rhodes, Tony Fiametta and Perry Patterson is on the same level as Sales, Mike Williams, Carter, Brinkley, Provo, Nassib, Bailey and Lemon then I dont know what tell you other then your crazy.

Brinkley was a SO when Grob took over

Sales has ALOT to prove
Williams played 7 games for Doug

Please don't make it sound like the offense was loaded with weapons when Doug took over, because it wasn't. And to say Doug had so much more to work with than Grob isn't the case...both teams had crappy talent on offense...

 

[JeremyCuse]

Brinkley was a SO when Grob took over

Sales has ALOT to prove
Williams played 7 games for Doug

Please don't make it sound like the offense was loaded with weapons when Doug took over, because it wasn't. And to say Doug had so much more to work with than Grob isn't the case...both teams had crappy talent on offense...

Brinkley was not a sophmore not sure what you are talking about but his first year was 2005. Also why does it matter Williams only played 7 games for Marrone, he was still on the team and a Grob recruit and light years better then anyone Grob got when he came in. Sales has been a project but again at least he was there when Marrone came in, the WR position for Grob was basically empty at that point. No one is saying Marrone walked into the early 90's Miami offense but its pretty clear from a skill position standpoint he had way more to work with including Provo, Williams, Sales, Lobdell, Carter, and Bailey.

 

[gocraz4dasu]

I'm just curious but if Marrone doesn't perform up to some of your standards this year, who exactly would you want us to target as a head coach? I'm really curious as to see who you guys would honestly think would be an upgrade from Marrone that would build the team up respectably and not use us as a stepping stone.

I personally am on the Marrone train, and have said so every time this comes up, and I think as long as this year isn't a colossal failiure that he should be our coach when we go into the ACC. Going into a new conference is tough enough as it is, why make it even more difficult by adding a new coach into that mix. Recipe for disaster, in my opinion. I really like Marrone and think he will turn the team around. If I'm Gross, I give Marrone at minimum this year and next to prove himself and to improve the entire team.

I'm also going to throw this out there, but I really don't see the value of threads like this before the season. We should be encouraging this team and be supporting Marrone, yet we have a thread like this b*tching about who had more talent between GROB and Marrone when they came on campus. Who cares?

 

[JeremyCuse]

I'm just curious but if Marrone doesn't perform up to some of your standards this year, who exactly would you want us to target as a head coach? I'm really curious as to see who you guys would honestly think would be an upgrade from Marrone that would build the team up respectably and not use us as a stepping stone.

I personally am on the Marrone train, and have said so every time this comes up, and I think as long as this year isn't a colossal failiure that he should be our coach when we go into the ACC. Going into a new conference is tough enough as it is, why make it even more difficult by adding a new coach into that mix. Recipe for disaster, in my opinion. I really like Marrone and think he will turn the team around. If I'm Gross, I give Marrone at minimum this year and next to prove himself and to improve the entire team.

I'm also going to throw this out there, but I really don't see the value of threads like this before the season. We should be encouraging this team and be supporting Marrone, yet we have a thread like this b*tching about who had more talent between GROB and Marrone when they came on campus. Who cares?

Look its the preseason and the team is basically under lock and key up in Fort Drum what else is there to talk about? I am pretty sure Marrone can handle his business and that he doesnt need endless threads on this board kissing his ass and praising the team. We support and encourage the team by buyign season tickets and showing up to games, if our players need praise on a message board that most of the fanbase doesnt know exists then were pretty much screwed.

Everyone knows Marrone is getting this year and next to get the team where it needs to be, its OK to have a discussion about something other then this years team.

 

[007]

Where did he say that and the media didn't fully quote him? What you say above could not have bern fact anyways since we did so well in year 2 which also supports my contention the talent was there.

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Have to agree with Bee's here. In fact, this is DM press first press conference when he talked about "i want the players to understand this is not a rebuilding process..."

See approx the 36:20 mark

 

[bevosu]

Couldn't disagree more. I'm a broken record but from a talent standpoint, Grob had more of a reclamation job than Marrone. From a facility standpoint, Grob had further to go (not that we were there when Marrone came on board). What Marrone had to do was improve the record. That is why he said it wasn't a complete rebuild.

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How anyone could have watched those GRob teams play football and not think that there was a need for a total reclamation project, from the coaching to the talent, is hard for me to grasp.

Facilities are a separate concern.

Marrone inherited a disaster. I think he's doing a good job. Is he Lombardi? no. Give him the time that he needs and the program will be respectable again.

And All4SU, I agree with everything you've said in this thread. I particularly liked you pointing out the lack of execution being a serious flaw on offense last year. A lot of those play calls would have looked a lot better if the players playing on offense actually executed the play as designed. Whether that's because we lacked the talent or were mentally slow..I don't know. Probably a combo of both.

 

[gocraz4dasu]

Look its the preseason and the team is basically under lock and key up in Fort Drum what else is there to talk about? I am pretty sure Marrone can handle his business and that he doesnt need endless threads on this board kissing his ass and praising the team. We support and encourage the team by buyign season tickets and showing up to games, if our players need praise on a message board that most of the fanbase doesnt know exists then were pretty much screwed.

Everyone knows Marrone is getting this year and next to get the team where it needs to be, its OK to have a discussion about something other then this years team.

So discussing useless and subjective things such as talent level between 2 arriving coaches is more stimulating for you? Less talking isn't exactly a bad thing. I understand certain people feel like they have to have a post quota on here but we don't need to stir up drama that isn't there to begin with.

I never claimed that our players need to hear it from a message board, not sure why your mind ran off with that one. That said people in this day and age are easily influenced by what they read or hear which is why useless hacks like The Dude gain traction. Pessimism doesn't just stay on a message board, it spreads. The last thing we need is to have even less people excited about Syracuse football. The bandwagon basketball fans have already given up before the season, essentially, you are just justifying people like that's actions of not going to the games or supporting the team. So I agree that's how you support the team (with tickets and showing up to games) but more people read this board than just simply the members, who I'm not terribly worried about supporting the team (sometimes). You have to convince the people who read casually that aren't die hards.

And once again, I never claimed it isn't okay that we can't talk about anything other than this years team. That doesn't make the conversation any less stupid or pitiful to read.

 

[CaliCuse]

How anyone could have watched those GRob teams play football and not think that there was a need for a total reclamation project, from the coaching to the talent, is hard for me to grasp.

Facilities are a separate concern.

Marrone inherited a disaster. I think he's doing a good job. Is he Lombardi? no. Give him the time that he needs and the program will be respectable again.

And All4SU, I agree with everything you've said in this thread. I particularly liked you pointing out the lack of execution being a serious flaw on offense last year. A lot of those play calls would have looked a lot better if the players playing on offense actually executed the play as designed. Whether that's because we lacked the talent or were mentally slow..I don't know. Probably a combo of both.

I think Dr Gross wanted not to see the fact that his initial coaching choice was a disaster from the tome they shook hands to the time Robinson blew his whistle on the field.A very insecure AD at the time.

 

[JeremyCuse]

So discussing useless and subjective things such as talent level between 2 arriving coaches is more stimulating for you? Less talking isn't exactly a bad thing. I understand certain people feel like they have to have a post quota on here but we don't need to stir up drama that isn't there to begin with.

I never claimed that our players need to hear it from a message board, not sure why your mind ran off with that one. That said people in this day and age are easily influenced by what they read or hear which is why useless hacks like The Dude gain traction. Pessimism doesn't just stay on a message board, it spreads. The last thing we need is to have even less people excited about Syracuse football. The bandwagon basketball fans have already given up before the season, essentially, you are just justifying people like that's actions of not going to the games or supporting the team. So I agree that's how you support the team (with tickets and showing up to games) but more people read this board than just simply the members, who I'm not terribly worried about supporting the team (sometimes). You have to convince the people who read casually that aren't die hards.

And once again, I never claimed it isn't okay that we can't talk about anything other than this years team. That doesn't make the conversation any less stupid or pitiful to read.

Stir up drama? You do realize this is an SU football message board right that is in no away associated with the SU football program. You make it sound like having a discussion about talent levels for Marrone and Grob or about concerns people have for this season is somehow going to affect our players or the mood of the program or fanbase. Trust me its not, this message board contains a fraction of the overall fan base, a huge majority dont know what the hell syracusefan.com is and wont be influenced by it no matter what we post about.

Also this paragraph from your post makes no sense to me: "The bandwagon basketball fans have already given up before the season, essentially, you are just justifying people like that's actions of not going to the games or supporting the team. So I agree that's how you support the team (with tickets and showing up to games) but more people read this board than just simply the members, who I'm not terribly worried about supporting the team (sometimes). You have to convince the people who read casually that aren't die hards."

Did you mean bandwagon fball fans? And how am I justifying there actions not to go to games or support the team? I have my season tickets and have encouraged those who can afford tickets and or are local to get seats themselves but we cant force people to go to games who are upset about the schedule or the state of the program or whatever. Your giving this board way to much credit as much as I love this site it doesnt hold a tenth of the power over the fanbase and community as you think it does.

Finally I dont see how this dicussion is useless and subjective. At this point I dont think we need to add to the 1 million threads about Broylds role, or Nassib or the O line or Penn State. Those threads are just as subjective as this the fact you find it stupid is your own opinion, no one forced you to post in this thread.

 

[kingottoiii]

How anyone could have watched those GRob teams play football and not think that there was a need for a total reclamation project, from the coaching to the talent, is hard for me to grasp.

He had no depth but he had talent to work with. Where were the major holes on the team he took over talent wise? Look at the roster the first two years and he certainly had enough to get to a Bowl. The issue was behind that there was nothing. Depth was an excuse, especially for the OL in year 3 and year 4. But everywhere else there was certainly enough to be a .500 ball club year 1 and year 2.

 

[rrlbees]

I'll grant you Carter, Bailey, and Provo. Collier? How many snaps did he play? Ditto Sales, who I am excited about, but who has yet to make a consistent contribution at any time during his tenure at SU.

GRob also had Curtis Brinkley and Damien Rhodes.

The only talent Grob had from P was in the senior class. After that, the next 3 classes were nada with the exception of a player here or there. I dare anyone to go back and look at P's last 3 classes.

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[rrlbees]

Are you talking about P's final years? Yes, program was in the crapper. Fans were inconsolable. Attendance was plummeting. Performance on the field was erratic -- some very good, some astonishingly bad.

Yes.

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[rrlbees]

Agreed. And I don't understand who others don't see it the same way. Year 1 and year 2, HCDM lived and died largely with guys from GRob who could play -- those who couldn't play, or didn't want to, didn't remain in the program. Add in a special player here or there of his own -- like Lemon

And went 8-5.

Btw, Lemon was a Marrone recruit. There are still some left like Pugh, Nassib, etc.


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[bevosu]

He had no depth but he had talent to work with. Where were the major holes on the team he took over talent wise? Look at the roster the first two years and he certainly had enough to get to a Bowl. The issue was behind that there was nothing. Depth was an excuse, especially for the OL in year 3 and year 4. But everywhere else there was certainly enough to be a .500 ball club year 1 and year 2.

I don't agree about the talent.

 

[rrlbees]

How anyone could have watched those GRob teams play football and not think that there was a need for a total reclamation project, from the coaching to the talent, is hard for me to grasp.

Facilities are a separate concern

Because some of us saw the talent. It needed coaching which is what it got and came oh so close to a bowl in year 1 and did so in year 2.

As to facilities, yes we need to do more, but it is a fact the facilities Marrone were better than what Grob got. But we only hear about lack of facilities when people need an excuse.


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[Aweart23]

The only talent Grob had from P was in the senior class. After that, the next 3 classes were nada with the exception of a player here or there. I dare anyone to go back and look at P's last 3 classes.

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I did...it's scary...

But I'll pose a question, how many of those kids that PP recruited but Grob coached, would have had better college careers with a better coaching staff?

I don't know the answer to that...

 

[kingottoiii]

I don't agree about the talent.

So in 2009 trying to win 6 games with this group was insurmountable?

QB Nassib
RB DC3, Bailey, Collier
WR Mike Williams, Donte Davis, Chew, Sales, Lemon, Graham
TE Owen, Provo
T Meldrum, Speller, White, Pugh
G Bart, Baumbach, Rosner
C McKenzie

Sorry but that O looks more talented than this year's team.

DE Chandler, Marinovich
DT Art Jones, Tribbey, Lewis, Perkins
LB D Smith, Hogue, Gillum, Vaughan
CB Merk, Kev Scott, Nico Scott
FS Holmes
SS Suter

Again that looks more talented than this year's team.

Then in 2010 we still should have had

QB Nassib
RB DC3, Bailey
WR Davis, Chew, Sales, Lemon, Graham
TE Provo
T Speller, White, Pugh
G Rosner
C Bart

DE Chandler, Marinovich
DT Tribbey, Lewis, Perkins
LB D Smith, Hogue, Gillum, Vaughan
CB Merk, Holmes, Kev Scott
FS None
SS Suter

The wasn't much depth but there was certainly enough talent to win 6 games. And again it looks to be slightly more talented than this year.

For year three most of the above guys were gone and Marrone had to go at it with his guys playing earlier than they should. That you can blame on GRob.

I agree whole heartily that top to bottom we have a better roster thanks to Marrone. However Marrone hasn't had the playmakers than GRob has had thus far.

 

[RMH44]

And went 8-5.

Btw, Lemon was a Marrone recruit. There are still some left like Pugh, Nassib, etc.


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Actually, Lemon was a holdover recruit from GRob.

 

[All4SU]

And went 8-5.

Btw, Lemon was a Marrone recruit. There are still some left like Pugh, Nassib, etc.


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I'm sure you meant GRob recruit. But Lemon never played for GRob, and he was "re-sold" on SU by HCDM. And he didn't play until Marrone was coaching. Which, of course, was the point.

 

[All4SU]

Because some of us saw the talent. It needed coaching which is what it got and came oh so close to a bowl in year 1 and did so in year 2.

As to facilities, yes we need to do more, but it is a fact the facilities Marrone were better than what Grob got. But we only hear about lack of facilities when people need an excuse.


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We're finally showing some of the results of the facilities improvements. But we would not have seen results last year or the year before. The cycle is too long.

 

[GoSU96]

Overall talent can be debated but Marrone definitely walked into more offensive talent then Grob did and I dont think its even close.

Baloney. First of all there is more than offense.

But let's look at the offense.

OL - not even close, looking forward to the day when SU has an OL with three guys as good as Ojinnaka, Durand, and Franklin on it.

QB - P walk on Cam Dantley and RSF Ryan Nassib vs Jr PP, 6-6 previous year, and Fields.

FB - there were no scholarship FB's on the roster when Marrone took over vs future NFL'er backed up by two pretty good talents in McDonald and Evans.

TE - Kowaleski, Ferron, Darlington vs Provo and P recruit Mike Owen.

RB - Wash. Rhodes and Brinkley vs Carter and Bailey. Collier and M. Jones had as much impact on the program K. Jones and Washington.

WR - other than Fr. P recruit Horne, Williams, Lemon (Robinson recruit), Sales were better than anybody on the roster when Robinson took over.

And you can't forget the rest of the team. Robinson was handed a lot of defensive talent, and not just Seniors and never fielded a decent defense, and he didn't recruit more than a handful of guys that could play over the 3 full recruiting cycles he had.

DL - putting aside that P commits AJones, Lewis and Perkins were on the roster, there was Lacasse, Wyche, Drame, Jenkins, Santiago, and Sklarosky. When Marrone took the top 8 dlinemen were those three P recruits, CJones, and Marinovich, Tribby, and two of his guys, Ball and Sharpe.

LB - Marrone had converted running backs Smith, and RB Hogue, Robinson had Soph, McClain, Jrs, Smith, Mackey, Cain, and Sr. Pruitt.

DB's - not even close. Gregory, A Smith, Jackson (Jr.), Lemon (Jr), DDavis (So), LaCaille, Clayton, (Jr.) Chestnut (Fr.), Brown. (So) Hell Robinson was starting P RB recruit Chiara the last couple of years. Holmes, Merk, and Suter were nice players, but that's only three, and not close to the top guys above.

Specials - Marrone was left with no place kickers. At least Robinson had Shadle, Krautman, and Barker to work with. Carney vs Long, not much difference.


Unless WR makes or breaks and entire football team, you would be wrong.

 

[RF2044]

The only talent Grob had from P was in the senior class. After that, the next 3 classes were nada with the exception of a player here or there. I dare anyone to go back and look at P's last 3 classes.

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I think this is one of those truisms that has become overstated as time has gone on. P's recruiting tailed off--that's a fact. But Grob inherited a bowl team [granted, a poor one] with a solid prospect at QB [Patterson was a 4 star], RB talent [Brinkley, Rhodes, and several quality FBs], and a decent OL. WR was abysmal. But GRob made the offense exponentially worse in the 1 win season, the year he took over. Then somehow, despite not having anything beyond P's senior classes as you claim, he had better years than that first season.

Luckily, GRob was a reasonably solid recruiter. He DID land some quality players, but his achilles heel was that he was congenitally incapable of landing impact players at a couple of positions [OL, TE, LB in particular]. So when Marrone took over, there was some talent on hand. Carter was a very good player, albeit one who was still unproven coming off of his injury. Bailey was solid. The WR talent on hand wasn't nearly as good as some claim. Sure, Williams was there, but what did he play, about 5-6 games in Marrone's first year before quitting [including an early season suspension]? To say that there wasn't much behind him is being kind--we're just now digging our way out of that hole at WR. Provo was a GRob recruit that Marrone inherited, but he had injuries derail two consecutive seasons when Marrone took over. And the OL Marrone inherited was way worse than the one GRob was handed.

GRob had a better prospect at QB, equivalent RB talent, a better OL, worse depth overall, and LOTS of good players on D.

Marrone inherited solid RB talent, an abysmal OL, an immensely talented knucklehead at WR who they got a half-season worth of productivity from, and several solid players on D. There might have been more talent, frosh through senior classes, than what GRob inherited, but that got compromised fast by the attrition that took place after the coaching change.

Seems like a push to me--certainly not the lopsided no-brainer than some contend.

 

[GoSU96]

The only talent Grob had from P was in the senior class. After that, the next 3 classes were nada with the exception of a player here or there. I dare anyone to go back and look at P's last 3 classes.

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You're wrong. It certaintly wasn't nada, and it wasn't just a handful of guys.

DL - Jrs, Skloarksy, Thorner, So. Jenkins, Fr. A Jones, Perkins, Lewis.

LB - Jr. KSmith, Mackey, Cain, So, McClain,

DB - Jr. - Jackson, Lemon, Clayton, So D Davis, Fr. Brown, Chestnut, Chiara.

OL - Jr. Outten, So. Madison, McCall, Fr. Durand, Ehrie

FB - Jr. McDonald, So. Evans, Fr - Fiammetta

TE - Jr. Darlington, Fr - Ferron, Owen

QB - Patterson, Fields

RB - Fr. Brinkley, Jones

WR - Fr. Horne

Kickers- Shadle, Carney

I didn't list a bunch of servicable guys who were never recruited over either.

 

[JeremyCuse]

Baloney. First of all there is more than offense.

But let's look at the offense.

OL - not even close, looking forward to the day when SU has an OL with three guys as good as Ojinnaka, Durand, and Franklin on it.

QB - P walk on Cam Dantley and RSF Ryan Nassib vs Jr PP, 6-6 previous year, and Fields.

FB - there were no scholarship FB's on the roster when Marrone took over vs future NFL'er backed up by two pretty good talents in McDonald and Evans.

TE - Kowaleski, Ferron, Darlington vs Provo and P recruit Mike Owen.

RB - Wash. Rhodes and Brinkley vs Carter and Bailey. Collier and M. Jones had as much impact on the program K. Jones and Washington.

WR - other than Fr. P recruit Horne, Williams, Lemon (Robinson recruit), Sales were better than anybody on the roster when Robinson took over.

And you can't forget the rest of the team. Robinson was handed a lot of defensive talent, and not just Seniors and never fielded a decent defense, and he didn't recruit more than a handful of guys that could play over the 3 full recruiting cycles he had.

DL - putting aside that P commits AJones, Lewis and Perkins were on the roster, there was Lacasse, Wyche, Drame, Jenkins, Santiago, and Sklarosky. When Marrone took the top 8 dlinemen were those three P recruits, CJones, and Marinovich, Tribby, and two of his guys, Ball and Sharpe.

LB - Marrone had converted running backs Smith, and RB Hogue, Robinson had Soph, McClain, Jrs, Smith, Mackey, Cain, and Sr. Pruitt.

DB's - not even close. Gregory, A Smith, Jackson (Jr.), Lemon (Jr), DDavis (So), LaCaille, Clayton, (Jr.) Chestnut (Fr.), Brown. (So) Hell Robinson was starting P RB recruit Chiara the last couple of years. Holmes, Merk, and Suter were nice players, but that's only three, and not close to the top guys above.

Specials - Marrone was left with no place kickers. At least Robinson had Shadle, Krautman, and Barker to work with. Carney vs Long, not much difference.


Unless WR makes or breaks and entire football team, you would be wrong.

I am certainly not going to argue that Marrone took over a better D and you certainly remember more names from the 2005 team on defense then I can recall but I have to completely disagree on offense.

Nassib has shown to be the better QB then Perry Patterson who was shell of himself after two major knee surgeries and Joe Fields was never a QB at the D1 level. He was a freshmen which is understandable but it doesn't change the fact hes been Marrone's starter for three years and about to break a bunch of passing records, clearly Marrone got th over all better player.

RB- Shouldnt even be debatable, Cater and Bailey were a heck of a Combo and better then everyone you listed save for maybe Brinkleys senior year who by the way had to be re-recruited by Grob. Were in year four under Marrone and still havent seen a Marrone recruit take meaningful snaps at the RB position not to mention he also had Doug Hogue at RB who had a couple of big games.

TE- I think its clear Provo is the guy, as much as I love Joe K the numbers last year speak for themselves and if Cutler wasnt hurt every 5 seconds he would have been a big help the past few years.

FB - Ill give you that but Grob wasnt really using a FB in whatever offense we were running and Fiametti wasnt exactly Rob Konrad reincarnated so lets no go overboard.

WR- I think I proved my point.

Oline - I agree with you on this but the cupboard was far from bare Pugh, Speller, Rosner, White, Baum, and Bart. Not exactly the Patriots O line but not a D3 line either.

No argument from me about the D but I think the secondary was better then you are giving it credit for and the special teams under Grob was somehow better then the mess we have had the past few years (save for Krautman)

 

[Rocco]

It is truly laughable to compare the program when GRob took over and then when DM took over. GRob took over a wounded ship and sank it quick. DM took over the shipwreck and has slowly started to rebuild it. DM even said that this wasn't a rebuild, but it sure as hell is.