As fired up as people seem to be getting from Friday

[RF2044]

I am certainly not going to argue that Marrone took over a better D and you certainly remember more names from the 2005 team on defense then I can recall but I have to completely disagree on offense.

Nassib has shown to be the better QB then Perry Patterson who was shell of himself after two major knee surgeries and Joe Fields was never a QB at the D1 level. He was a freshmen which is understandable but it doesn't change the fact hes been Marrone's starter for three years and about to break a bunch of passing records, clearly Marrone got th over all better player.

RB- Shouldnt even be debatable, Cater and Bailey were a heck of a Combo and better then everyone you listed save for maybe Brinkleys senior year who by the way had to be re-recruited by Grob. Were in year four under Marrone and still havent seen a Marrone recruit take meaningful snaps at the RB position not to mention he also had Doug Hogue at RB who had a couple of big games.

TE- I think its clear Provo is the guy, as much as I love Joe K the numbers last year speak for themselves and if Cutler wasnt hurt every 5 seconds he would have been a big help the past few years.

FB - Ill give you that but Grob wasnt really using a FB in whatever offense we were running and Fiametti wasnt exactly Rob Konrad reincarnated so lets no go overboard.

WR- I think I proved my point.

Oline - I agree with you on this but the cupboard was far from bare Pugh, Speller, Rosner, White, Baum, and Bart. Not exactly the Patriots O line but not a D3 line either.

No argument from me about the D but I think the secondary was better then you are giving it credit for and the special teams under Grob was somehow better then the mess we have had the past few years (save for Krautman)

Sorry, but your QB assessment is revisionist and doesn't hold water. Patterson was a 4-star recruit. We were the Wing-T running Nassib's only offer if I recall correctly, and at the time of his commitment there was some sentiment expressed [falsely, IMO] that the only reason we were taking him was due to a relationship that GRob had with the kid's HS coach.

Patterson never developed here, and clearly his injuries impacted his overall athleticism. But the main difference between Patterson and Nassib is that Patterson played in a completely inept offensive scheme. Frankly, there are a lot of posters who would also level that accusation at Nassib and the system he plays in. That you view him as the "over all better player" is equal parts revisionist history about the quality of prospect Patterson was and a backhanded compliment to how superior the current coaching staff is to the last one.

Your RB assessment is also pretty slanted. Do you have any clue how good Boonah was? I love Carter--LOVE him, and I'm so proud of him for overcoming what seemed like a catastrophic hip injury [Bo Jackson esque], and putting together two solid years and making it to the NFL. Whether he eventually plays a meaningful snap or not is irrelevant--him overcoming the hip injury was flat out amazing.

But to claim that Carter was "shouldn't even be debatable" better than Brinkley is inaccurate at best, and a huge reach at worst. The next question is whether Bailey was better than Damian Rhodes--who was a 1000 yard rusher, playing behind what may have been the worst OL in program history. Take your pick there, but the answer to either comparison sure isn't clear cut, and definitely not as clear cut as you'd like to rationalize in order to support your position.

 

[bevosu]

My point in pointing out that Marrone inherited a much weaker program than GRob had not a lot to do with talent comparisons, neither inherited a great roster. It had to do with where the program was when Marrone stepped in and where it was when Robinson took over.

Robinson may have had some talent, but he didn't do a great job coaching the TEAM up.

I think Marrone has...at least I don't cringe nearly as much watching Marrone's teams as I did in the choo choo era.

Marrone has taken over a program that was barely breathing and has performed some CPR. The patient hasn't come close to fully recovering, but at least I think we're off the critical list and hopefully on the way to a healthy recovery.

I think Marrone is a way better coach than GRob. Talk of his perceived weaknesses and strengths is fair game, but to hint that we aren't better off, and Marrone doesn't deserve some credit for that, borders on delusional.

I just want to make it clear that I think coaching and recruiting seem to have improved since Marrone took over and consequently Marrone should be granted credit and time to accomplish what is not an easy thing to do.

He took a total embarrassment and seems have it moving in the right direction. Fast enough for some...no.

 

[RF2044]

Robinson may have had some talent, but he didn't do a great job coaching the TEAM up.

That pretty much says it all. Robinson took an average program and ran it into the ground.

Marrone took over at the program's lowest point after Robinson, and made the program immediately more competitive--especially on defense.

That doesn't mean that there aren't still gaps, that we still aren't recruiting our way up to par with our peers, that we are 100% where we need to be to contend for the top 25, etc. -- but the difference between the two coaching staffs is immense, in terms of the productivity they respectively coaxed out of the rosters / talent they had.

 

[JeremyCuse]

Sorry, but your QB assessment is revisionist and doesn't hold water. Patterson was a 4-star recruit. We were the Wing-T running Nassib's only offer if I recall correctly, and at the time of his commitment there was some sentiment expressed [falsely, IMO] that the only reason we were taking him was due to a relationship that GRob had with the kid's HS coach.

Patterson never developed here, and clearly his injuries impacted his overall athleticism. But the main difference between Patterson and Nassib is that Patterson played in a completely inept offensive scheme. Frankly, there are a lot of posters who would also level that accusation at Nassib and the system he plays in. That you view him as the "over all better player" is equal parts revisionist history about the quality of prospect Patterson was and a backhanded compliment to how superior the current coaching staff is to the last one.

Your RB assessment is also pretty slanted. Do you have any clue how good Boonah was? I love Carter--LOVE him, and I'm so proud of him for overcoming what seemed like a catastrophic hip injury [Bo Jackson esque], and putting together two solid years and making it to the NFL. Whether he eventually plays a meaningful snap or not is irrelevant--him overcoming the hip injury was flat out amazing.

But to claim that Carter was "shouldn't even be debatable" better than Brinkley is inaccurate at best, and a huge reach at worst. The next question is whether Bailey was better than Damian Rhodes--who was a 1000 yard rusher, playing behind what may have been the worst OL in program history. Take your pick there, but the answer to either comparison sure isn't clear cut, and definitely not as clear cut as you'd like to rationalize in order to support your position.

Sorry but I am not following your explanation on the QB position. So because Patterson was a four star recruit and Nassib had no other big time offers that makes him the better player? I also fail to see how my review is somehow revisionist history, the numbers and W/L record speak for themselves I am not revising anything and certainly at this point Nassib has proven to be a better QB then Patterson. Injuries affected Patterson as I mentioned but its not like Nassib has been playing in the Fun and Gun offense of the early 90's, and his WR's outside of Lemon havent exactly been top notch D1 talent. Coaching or not Nassib is/was/has been a better QB.

I have to disagree also on your RB points, I love Brinkley but he was hurt a lot and outside of his senior year was just a run of the mill RB. Carter carried the 2010 team and also was pretty good in Marrone's first year as well, perhaps clearly better was a bad choice of words but I think Carter was a better RB at Su then Brinkley. Rhodes was a much more highly regarded recruit then Bailey and in the end they had very similar careers, you can certainly make the case Rhodes had it rough his senior year but again even before that Reyes was the guy and Rhodes never really lived up to the hype.

 

[JeremyCuse]

That pretty much says it all. Robinson took an average program and ran it into the ground.

Marrone took over at the program's lowest point after Robinson, and made the program immediately more competitive--especially on defense.

That doesn't mean that there aren't still gaps, that we still aren't recruiting our way up to par with our peers, that we are 100% where we need to be to contend for the top 25, etc. -- but the difference between the two coaching staffs is immense, in terms of the productivity they respectively coaxed out of the rosters / talent they had.

I think its clear Marrone is obviously a better coach then Grob, I dont see anyone arguing that nor should they.

 

[RF2044]

Sorry but I am not following your explanation on the QB position. So because Patterson was a four star recruit and Nassib had no other big time offers that makes him the better player? I also fail to see how my review is somehow revisionist history, the numbers and W/L record speak for themselves I am not revising anything and certainly at this point Nassib has proven to be a better QB then Patterson. Injuries affected Patterson as I mentioned but its not like Nassib has been playing in the Fun and Gun offense of the early 90's, and his WR's outside of Lemon havent exactly been top notch D1 talent. Coaching or not Nassib is/was/has been a better QB.

The question was about which coach inherited more talent at QB. The W/L record has as much to do with the coaching staff Nassib has played for than anything else. I'm fine to agree to disagree on this point, but let's not pretend that Nassib was viewed as the asset this coaching staff has developed him into--the guy couldn't even beat out Greg Paulus, who hadn't played the position in 4 years. There is even a vocal minority of posters who view Nassib as grossly inadequate--that doesn't make it true, but it bears mentioning that Nassib isn't viewed by some as being a liability in some respects. And if you want to talk about WRs hamstringing the play of the QB--which has certainly been true for Nassib to an extent--just imagine what Patterson was playing with [Moss, Lane]. Enough said.

have to disagree also on your RB points, I love Brinkley but he was hurt a lot and outside of his senior year was just a run of the mill RB. Carter carried the 2010 team and also was pretty good in Marrone's first year as well, perhaps clearly better was a bad choice of words but I think Carter was a better RB at Su then Brinkley. Rhodes was a much more highly regarded recruit then Bailey and in the end they had very similar careers, you can certainly make the case Rhodes had it rough his senior year but again even before that Reyes was the guy and Rhodes never really lived up to the hype.

Wow...completely disagree with your take on the RBs. I think it is time to just end this dialogue / mini argument, both because it is subjective and it is clear that you and I aren't remotely on the same page. But I think the facts speak for themselves at RB--it isn't a clearcut advantage to Marrone's group over GRob no matter how you try to spin it--you are significantly discounting what Brinkley and Rhodes accomplished.

 

[JeremyCuse]

The question was about which coach inherited more talent at QB. The W/L record has as much to do with the coaching staff Nassib has played for than anything else. I'm fine to agree to disagree on this point, but let's not pretend that Nassib was a highly touted QB--the guy couldn't even beat out Greg Paulus, who hadn't played the position in 4 years since high school. There is even a vocal minority of posters who view Nassib as grossly inadequate--that doesn't make it true, but it bears mentioning that Nassib isn't viewed by some as being a liability in some respects. And if you want to talk about WRs hamstringing the play of the QB--which has certainly been true for Nassib to an extent--just imagine what Patterson was playing with [Moss, Lane]. Enough said.





Wow...completely disagree with your take on the RBs. I think it is time to just end this dialogue / mini argument, both because it is subjective and it is clear that you and I aren't remotely on the same page. But I think the facts speak for themselves at RB--it isn't a clearcut advantage to Marrone's group over GRob no matter how you try to spin it--you are significantly discounting what Brinkley and Rhodes accomplished.

I think were basing the players/results on different things. I am talking more about what the players career was once the coach in question took over and what the team got from him. I certainly am not saying Nassib was some big time recruit or a sure thing but he has developed and obviously been a pretty decent 3 year starter. We can agree to disagree on the RB, I just believe Marrone walked into a better situation with Carter/Bailey sitting there ready to go versus just Rhodes and a Brinkley he had to re-recruit.

 

[RF2044]

I think were basing the players/results on different things. I am talking more about what the players career was once the coach in question took over and what the team got from him. I certainly am not saying Nassib was some big time recruit or a sure thing but he has developed and obviously been a pretty decent 3 year starter. We can agree to disagree on the RB, I just believe Marrone walked into a better situation with Carter/Bailey sitting there ready to go versus just Rhodes and a Brinkley he had to re-recruit.

Jeremy--you and I have been cool for a long time. It's been an interesting debate--like you said, let's just agree to disagree.

Have a good night, and LGO!!!

 

[JeremyCuse]

Jeremy--you and I have been cool for a long time. It's been an interesting debate--like you said, let's just agree to disagree.

Have a good night, and LGO!!!

Agreed, nothing personal RF all in good fun.

 

[IthacaBarrel]

Marrone doesnt have 3 more years, in todays day and age you dont get 7 years to turn a program around. If this team isnt .500 by next year hes not going to survive.

You are right Marrone doesn't have 7 years he probably has more as long as he doesn't the bed. Orange Pa is right, hard to build a winner with d3 facilities and no money...build the facilities, invest in the product and if Marrone still isn't winning you can attract a higher caliber coach

 

[IthacaBarrel]

Couldn't disagree more. I'm a broken record but from a talent standpoint, Grob had more of a reclamation job than Marrone. From a facility standpoint, Grob had further to go (not that we were there when Marrone came on board). What Marrone had to do was improve the record. That is why he said it wasn't a complete rebuild.

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Probably your worst post I can ever remember you can't honestly believe what you have written here... That facilities are still way beyond the eight ball and just beacuse Marrone was playing Grob guys doesn't mean he was left legit talent, sure there were a few guys but come on

 

[IthacaBarrel]

I meant Damien Rhodes as Ferri was allready gone by the time Grob came in thats a typo on my part.

Grob recruited Deleone Carter, Taj Smith and Lobdell and I am pretty sure Mike Williams as well, so how exactly did he walk into that?

I dont see how its even at all, I think its pretty clear Marrone had WAY more to work
with.

A few more skill guys yes he did, no o lineman and a program that was a disaster from head to toe, if you guys think Marrone walked into a better situation than grob you guys are insane, so grob left Marrone in better shape as a whole than p did? You have to be ing kidding me, you guys are insane

 

[rrlbees]

You're wrong. It certaintly wasn't nada, and it wasn't just a handful of guys.

DL - Jrs, Skloarksy, Thorner, So. Jenkins, Fr. A Jones, Perkins, Lewis.

LB - Jr. KSmith, Mackey, Cain, So, McClain,

DB - Jr. - Jackson, Lemon, Clayton, So D Davis, Fr. Brown, Chestnut, Chiara.

OL - Jr. Outten, So. Madison, McCall, Fr. Durand, Ehrie

FB - Jr. McDonald, So. Evans, Fr - Fiammetta

TE - Jr. Darlington, Fr - Ferron, Owen

QB - Patterson, Fields

RB - Fr. Brinkley, Jones

WR - Fr. Horne

Kickers- Shadle, Carney

I didn't list a bunch of servicable guys who were never recruited over either.

List P's last 3 classes. Ugly.

Btw, in another post im this thread, you again gave credit for moving Smith and Hogue to LB. Smith was already at LB and Rogue was going there even if Grob had stayed. He had already berm promised that.

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[rrlbees]

Probably your worst post I can ever remember you can't honestly believe what you have written here... That facilities are still way beyond the eight ball and just beacuse Marrone was playing Grob guys doesn't mean he was left legit talent, sure there were a few guys but come on

Reading comprehension, try it.

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[rrlbees]

A few more skill guys yes he did, no o lineman and a program that was a disaster from head to toe, if you guys think Marrone walked into a better situation than grob you guys are insane, so grob left Marrone in better shape as a whole than p did? You have to be ******* kidding me, you guys are insane

Try following along. Nobody said what you just did. Drinking?

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[GoSU96]

Sorry, but your QB assessment is revisionist and doesn't hold water. Patterson was a 4-star recruit. We were the Wing-T running Nassib's only offer if I recall correctly, and at the time of his commitment there was some sentiment expressed [falsely, IMO] that the only reason we were taking him was due to a relationship that GRob had with the kid's HS coach.

Patterson never developed here, and clearly his injuries impacted his overall athleticism. But the main difference between Patterson and Nassib is that Patterson played in a completely inept offensive scheme. Frankly, there are a lot of posters who would also level that accusation at Nassib and the system he plays in. That you view him as the "over all better player" is equal parts revisionist history about the quality of prospect Patterson was and a backhanded compliment to how superior the current coaching staff is to the last one.

Your RB assessment is also pretty slanted. Do you have any clue how good Boonah was? I love Carter--LOVE him, and I'm so proud of him for overcoming what seemed like a catastrophic hip injury [Bo Jackson esque], and putting together two solid years and making it to the NFL. Whether he eventually plays a meaningful snap or not is irrelevant--him overcoming the hip injury was flat out amazing.

But to claim that Carter was "shouldn't even be debatable" better than Brinkley is inaccurate at best, and a huge reach at worst. The next question is whether Bailey was better than Damian Rhodes--who was a 1000 yard rusher, playing behind what may have been the worst OL in program history. Take your pick there, but the answer to either comparison sure isn't clear cut, and definitely not as clear cut as you'd like to rationalize in order to support your position.

Anybody who thinks Bailey was as good, let along better, than Rhodes, needs to get their head examined.

 

[GoSU96]

List P's last 3 classes. Ugly.

Btw, in another post im this thread, you again gave credit for moving Smith and Hogue to LB. Smith was already at LB and Rogue was going there even if Grob had stayed. He had already berm promised that.

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You said that after the Senior class there was nobody. I just listed the nobodies. Case closed.

 

[IthacaBarrel]

Reading comprehension, try it.

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2nd worst post ever, you have lost it. Take a break.

 

[JeremyCuse]

A few more skill guys yes he did, no o lineman and a program that was a disaster from head to toe, if you guys think Marrone walked into a better situation than grob you guys are insane, so grob left Marrone in better shape as a whole than p did? You have to be ******* kidding me, you guys are insane

Again as Bees said your reading something that isnt there, I said strictly from an offensive skill standpoint I think he had more to work with in my opinion, definitely not from an overall standpoint though.

 

[JeremyCuse]

Try following along. Nobody said what you just did. Drinking?

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Yeah I am not sure where we said Marrone took over the better program, I certainly didn't.

 

[JeremyCuse]

Anybody who thinks Bailey was as good, let along better, than Rhodes, needs to get their head examined.

Careers at SU were very similar as each sat behind a starter for three years but still played significant roles, big difference was Rhodes was a four star and Bailey was a two star no one knew about. If anything Rhodes never lived up to the 4 star hype.

 

[IthacaMatt]

I'm still under the impression that we will fall between 4 and 7 wins this year.

When you ask me the day before the Northwestern game, however, I will guarantee you this teams runs the table and goes 13-0. Just the way it is.

To me, it all comes down to the offensive line. If they can be just AVERAGE, we will be in a bowl game. They have been nearly the worst in college football for going on 10 years. I'm talking about being average - able to run for 3-4 yards per carry, able to pick up 3rd and short, able to pass block and give the QB time for routes to develop downfield. It all comes down to that. If we have adequate O-line play, the defense doesn't have to pitch a shutout every time, and they won't be on the field for 35-40 minutes a game. Injuries come when players are fatigued. It all comes down to the line - and I'm looking at you, Mackey.

 

[RF2044]

To me, it all comes down to the offensive line. If they can be just AVERAGE, we will be in a bowl game. They have been nearly the worst in college football for going on 10 years. I'm talking about being average - able to run for 3-4 yards per carry, able to pick up 3rd and short, able to pass block and give the QB time for routes to develop downfield. It all comes down to that. If we have adequate O-line play, the defense doesn't have to pitch a shutout every time, and they won't be on the field for 35-40 minutes a game. Injuries come when players are fatigued. It all comes down to the line

Completely, 100% agree.

 

[rocklloyd]

18 days can't get here fast enough. I'm tired of these threads. We'll know soone enough what groups perform.

 

[PhatOrange]

Careers at SU were very similar as each sat behind a starter for three years but still played significant roles, big difference was Rhodes was a four star and Bailey was a two star no one knew about. If anything Rhodes never lived up to the 4 star hype.

I'd have to go back and look at the stats but didn't Rhodes have like 600 to 800 yards of total offense as a freshman (rushing/receiving) ?